Thread: problem customer/student

My website is www.bellydancedivas.co.uk

From the student:

I have booked and paid for workshop's on 25th and 26th August. Please check my booking confirmation here attached.

Unfortunately something came up and i may not be able to attend the workshops on the Saturday. Can i still cancell my booking or is it too late? If it is too late could i at least swap part of the costs of Saturdays workshops and attend the advance class on the Sunday instead which is the only workshops that i didn't book?

Please advise me, cheers Ms X :-)

My reply (I was in a rush)

Hi - I am afraid we can't refund due to costs sunk into the event already -
but swaps are fine.

Her reply:

Thank you for your reply. I will think about swapping at least one of the two workshops on the Saturday for the advanced/professional workshop on the Sunday. However i would still loose £8.

I have checked the terms and conditions on Caroline's website and the only thing it is said is thst refund can't be given after an event. Therefore i feel i should be entitled to a refund. The terms and conditions are a bit misleading because from what ican read i should be entitled to a refund.

I am sorry to hear that the costs sunk into the event but i feel that this is not my personal problem and i should not be affected by this organisation matters that are outwith my control as an individual.

Please explain and thank you very much.

I will confirm shortly if i wish to do my swap for one of the classes.

Best Wishes,
Ms. X

My reply:

Hi Ms. X, I'm sorry you feel that way. It is too late to cancel your booking. In these instances I try to sell the tickets to someone on the waiting list for a £2 fee, however, there is no waiting list.

I feel like issuing a full refund and asking her not to book anything with me again in the future, am I over reacting, and is my website clear in the Terms and Conditions???

Hallo Caroline! Oh boy, do I feel you on this one. This is just one reason I don't miss hosting events.

I think your Terms and Conditions are very clear, however there's SOME room for misinterpretation of number one:

If you book a class and then want to cancel, we will try to sell your ticket to someone on the waiting list for a £2 fee.

I'd amend that so that it reads basically: "If you book a class and then want to cancel, we will try to sell your ticket to someone on the waiting list for a £2 fee. In the event that we cannot sell your ticket, we regret that we cannot offer refunds for tickets booked". That way, there's absolutely no comeback. In theory, Mrs X can claim that it doesn't SAY no refunds, except in the case of an event already run.

<sigh> Why do people do this? If you book a cinema ticket and then decide not to go, does the cinema offer you your money back? Em... that'll be a no then. ,r:;

Edited to add: Oooh, I just re-read that point and I noted that you're saying you'll sell to someone on the waiting list. What's your refund policy in the event of there not being a waiting list, i.e. the event hasn't sold out yet? You might want to give that some thought too. My personal policy was basically: I will TRY to resell your ticket if you warn me in advance - but if there's no demand or no waitlist, I can't help and there'll be no refund. If you tell me ON THE DAY that you can't make it and can I sell your ticket on... well, I'll try. But I won't bust a gut either, I have enough on my plate as it is. <where's a little devil smilie when you need one?>

Although her tone was kind-of harsh, your terms and conditions really don't say what happens if you want a refund before the event. Is that what that first point about re-selling tickets is about? Looking at the terms as they are written now, as an attendee I wuld not be able to get a clear understanding of when I can or can't cancel, there's no mention of swapping classes, etc.

You are absolutely right to think that she was rude and unpleasant, but on the other hand I can also see why she would be very frustrated, since your reply really did not correspond to what was on the terms and conditions page.

i'd answer that it is not your personal problem that she cant attend.

Do you know, I'm going to check, but I think this same person asked for a refund before "because her son was in a car accident and in a coma, and she had to fly to brazil as a result to be by his side".

Also, thanks for those of you who suggested changing the wording, which I will do. What do you think I should do with Ms. X ?

£8? that really isn't that much money, is it? perhaps tell her that once she swaps, that's final. no refund after the swap. maybe give her a t-shirt or something for the difference?

The 1 fell off during my anonymising her email, it 18 pounds she'll loose. Also, the coma lady, for those who were interested, was a different lady, and yes I did give the money back to the coma lady, though it sounded far fetched, it was possibly true I thought. Perhaps I am just a mug though.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

Also, thanks for those of you who suggested changing the wording, which I will do. What do you think I should do with Ms. X ?

Saying that you won't refund after an event is NOT the same thing as saying you can get a refund before the event! She's reading into it what she wants to read--but her feeling entitled to a refund doesn't mean you have to provide one.

As my dear grandmother says "people in hell want ice water, doesn't mean they're gonna get it"

I wouldn't want to get into trying to resell tickets for anybody--if THEY can resell it on their own that's peachy but I wouldn't want the pressure or the responsibility.

~~Kimahri

I have updated the Terms and Conditions page too - thanks for all the comments. It's just the waste of my time that bothers me the most. Not dancing, not earning real money at the day job, not bhuzing ;-) - instead arguing over £18.

Also, I dont' mind reselling if there is time, as quite often things are completely sold out and it really makes folks days when I ring them and give them a place. I need all the nice-feeling-generation I can get in this business !!!!

All normal caveats apply to this advice - this is just MY opinion, in no means the only one, just what I would do under the circumstance, blabbity blabbity blah.

What I would do with Mrs X is email her, pointing out that it's common policy among workshop organisers to NOT offer refunds for places pre-booked, because your booking forms a type of contract which then enables you to go ahead and book the instructor, room etc. But that you've had a look over your Terms and Conditions and can understand why she might not have fully understood that, so in this case you're willing to give her a refund as a gesture of goodwill. (Because I would be. Keep the customer sweet and all that.) I'd also THEN fully state your terms and Conditions and make sure she fully understands that this refund situation will NOT happen again and she should understand this should she book for any future events. And dammit, I'd be taking a note of her name so she could never pull this stunt again.

I know, having to suck it up and give obnoxious people what they're asking for *seriously* dents pride and is just damn unfair. But I think on the whole you're a very fair and very sweet person (maybe a little too much so! ) and I think you'll feel better about yourself if you follow the above rather than email back something unpleasant which could come back to bite you on the ass.

That said, as long as it's worded carefully and politely, you can always refuse to refund (after all, it's not at all implied by any of your Terms and Conditions or common practise ANYWHERE to refund monies for an event where cancellation by the customer is required because of a SUBSEQUENT change of plans or schedule conflict! Cheek! Onus is on the CUSTOMER to ensure they can attend BEFORE booking and parting with cash.). She ain't going to like it, and probably not give up without a fight. But it's your call as to the principle of the thing!

Things like this are really starting to fluff my feathers. Grrr. Why do people treat pre-booking their spot at an event as a non-binding arrangement they can cancel at a whim?

The whole point of pre-booking is an exchange of risk. They get a discount, and/or a guaranteed spot at an event that be sold out at the door. In exchange, they commit to buying a ticket by, ummmmm, buying a ticket.

If the pre-booker isn't committing to anything and can change their mind at any time before the event, they haven't really committed to anything, have they? How pissed would these people be if they bought their ticket in advance and you changed your mind, or made other plans, and on the day of said "oh, I know I said you'd have a spot but someone I like more showed up, so I'm just giving your money back instead." Either both parties have made a committment or they haven't.

Sorry, I know that's not something you can say to her and it's not useful advice. Just commiserating!

...and ban her from future events!
[there is alway one at every event]

Thanks everyone. So I talked it over with my b/f who said that wiggle was giving some good advice re: goodwill gestures etc. And, because 2 people I trust agreed on the same thing, I decided to go with that. I must be letting my annoyance/pride get in the way of good customer relations, (dam it!) which is not like me AT ALL. I offered here her entire booking money back, said it wouldn't happen again as bookings are binding etc. etc. As an added bonus, I won't have to see her at the event if she doesn't turn up, I would like to have asked her not to book anything else, but my b/f advised against it.

Oh dear. How come if I can't make it to a hafla, Arabic evening, workshop and I have prepaid I assume ho hum my loss. I suppose God loves a trier!
I had booked a workshop at £25 with Farida Fahmy in Manchester and suddenly Domba was in Liverpool with workshops so guess what out of the group I went to Domba 'cos somebody had to. All I said to Trace was, if you have a waiting list,sell my place for me will you.She couldn't, my hard luck.
Mind you I really don't expect to pay an admin fee. I bl**dy hate them ,m:: on principle the cost of a stamp to return a cheque is fair enough or it costs even less to rip one up...no thanks. As a regular supporter of BD I personally expect some good grace from organisers if they have managed to shift my ticket to a waitng list. They have managed to secure another happy customer.
BDSS wre grateful to have the place I had paid for on a workshop on SUn
( and didn't want to go after dancing on the Fri at the last minute) and refunded my card with promptness as there was a waiting list.
Obviously you don't expect an organiser to go out on a limb for you. Unless I have a waiting list for hafla tickets, I tell someone they have to sell it themsleves.

the problem is Lisa, that if there is no cost, some people will continually be on the phone wanting things sold, rebought, swapped and re-arranged. I pay someone to do my admin, all these things add up.

I'd also like to add that 99 percent of people are like you Lisa, they assume their loss if they cannot attend an event - they even thank me for organising, and are a joy to be around - even folk who find they want to sell to the wait list, like you they say "see what you can do" and are really chuffed when I manage to sell on.

It's the 1 percent of people that take up a disproportionate amount of admin time, which is why I was thinking of asking the lady concerned not to book for future events.

Good for you, Caroline - I know from experience how difficult it is to swallow that urge to phone/email and suggest that they stick their ticket right up their... ,m:: <ahem> Well. You know what I mean anyway.

Good on you for taking the high ground. And now this woman DEFINITELY can't pull this stunt again, so you don't need to worry about not having banned her from future events. Also, you've upgraded your Terms and Conditions to make sure you don't have to deal with this kind of thing again. I think some chocolate/wine/both and a soak in a hot frgrant bath might be called for now. ..g.:

Thanks Jen, isn't it funny how worked up we get over little things, now where are my tranquillisers.... mmmm.

That's the thing that really burns me, 99% of people ARE like Lizajuk, and it isn't fair to them when other people won't accept the rules and demand special treatment.

I'd also like to know.... while we are giving up organiser griefs..why is it sooooo difficult to include that SAE...c::

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

I pay someone to do my admin, all these things add up.

Ah well...please don't tell any of my mates I rope in to help...

The best way around all of this is very clear, very bold lettering on event pages:

ONCE YOU BOOK - NO REFUNDS. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Seriously, I've missed various events I've paid for and never asked for a refund. That's some nerve. But people can be dumb (or smart, maybe I'm dumb) - and need that big bold in their face refund policy spelled out.

Originally Posted by danidance

The best way around all of this is very clear, very bold lettering on event pages:

ONCE YOU BOOK - NO REFUNDS. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Seriously, I've missed various events I've paid for and never asked for a refund. That's some nerve. But people can be dumb (or smart, maybe I'm dumb) - and need that big bold in their face refund policy spelled out.

Yes, I've missed events too and just swallowed the cost. I have been lucky a couple of times where I have sent an email saying I can't make it and the organizer offered to let me attend another event in the future (no refund see, lol) at no charge or discounted (there's that public relations side of the organizer who knows someone as a repeat customer). But that usually doesn't happen . . . because everyone's policies say NO REFUND.

I understand perfectly why organizers have these policies. Sometimes I wait till right before an event to sign up even if it does cost me a bit more. But when you plan to go to an event that requires air travel and hotel, then you must do some advance planning anyway.

I'm with Dani, and Id say NO REFUNDS, PERIOD. Then if someone emails you to let you know they cant make it, and that there would be a ticket open, IF you can resell it, then Id offer a refund for it. I would not offer this kind deal up front.

But, alas, this is also why people wait until the last minute to sign up for events, so it kinda sucks for the producer all around.

So true. And saying 'no refunds ever' doesn't mean that if someone contacts you & is having a true emergency you can't make an exception to your own policy.

Very true! And when/if you do decide to make an exception, you'll be viewed as the best person on earth! Imagine that, they expect/know there are no refunds, but in this case you were able to give on! How nice!

:P

I never expect a refund on anything I buy unless something happens and the provider is unable to fullfill the deal. Even then, I wouldnt expect a refund but rather a reschedule.

If you have a no refund policy and you still have that type of person harrassing you for one, then I would think this person is not worth going the extra mile to have her as a repeat customer anyways.

Oh wow lookie! I am an official Bhuzzer now! Must be talking too much!!..l;,