Thread: beata and horacio coypright

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHixhcnfMUc]YouTube - Copyrights in Oriental Dance by Beata & Horacio[/ame]

Verrrry interesting topic. I've seen dances copied from YouTube before.

Who are the people they've finger-pointed?

You know copying is flattering BUT to do it so closely begs comparison with the original ,apart from the moral and legal issues,..and that is foolish, don't you think?!

it's a big festival in st petersburg, i've got three of their shows on dvd. it's the same festival they mentioned in the email about this topic a while back.

I realize I'm probably going to get shouted at here, but....Honestly...with the soloist at the beginning, I *don't* necessarily think they look *that* similar. The color schemes are similar. They are shot similarly. They hear the music in similar fashion. But if you watch carefully, the St. Petersburg soloist is using different movements throughout--different arms, she's accenting at different times, she's doing different movements, shes at times traveling when Beata's still and vice versa...the feeling is similar and maybe it's fair to say she was inspired by Beata Cifuentes if she saw her performance, but I don't think it's a copy of the choreography. I've seen many people dance to versions of that song (have danced to it myself and have never seen nor heard the Beata version before) and many people take dramatic pauses where she does, travel in roughly those places, do some "spanish-y" feeling moves in those places, etc. That's not copying Beata--that's following the music.

The drum solo, on the other hand, does look pretty close...

on the beata and horacio clip, i'm not sure yet what i think of the whole thing. i posted it cause i think it's interesting that they choose to put this on youtube in this manner.


after about a minute into it, more clips from the oasis shows. and i think there is more on youtube. the main dancer is called "natalie becker", if you tube that, you find loads of clips. very well known in russia.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXXR6CLP-Qg]YouTube - Oasis Festival 2009[/ame]

There are certainly differences between the two dancers, but I think it's more than following the music. Beata is obviously not happy about it and I don't blame her.

Sometimes dancers don't want credit, though. ie. our troupe used a Sahra Saeeda choreo with her blessing, but she didn't want me to credit her. Mainly because she only wanted her direct work coming up on internet searches. So, we shouldn't assume dancers don't have permission. Although in Beata's case, it's pretty obvious!

Also, I have seen questionable clips in the past regarding copied work on youtube. In some cases, it wasn't the dancer who posted her clip - it was someone else. So how do we know if the dancer credited the original artist on the programme?

It's an interesting idea to see the dancers side by side where you can compare them directly. Maybe somebody ought to sponsor a competition where the whole challenge would be to have all the contestants doing the exact same routine at once on stage, and the judges would eliminate them one at a time until they were down to a winner. Some of those original versions of the classic songs are over a half hour long, which would give the judges plenty of time to narrow the field. Who's up for the "Umm Kalthoum Original Recording Sudden-Death Face Off"?

Nevertheless and on topic, choreography often falls into a legal gray area, and the fact that this particular series of incidents occurs across two different countries would make it quite difficult to prosecute. The only realistic course of action is for the dance community to police itself regarding the use of others' choreographic works. From early on, dancers should be taught the ethics of respecting creative property, and anyone failing to do so should be subjected to peer criticism, if nothing else.

Very interesting indeed....I have to wonder about the music in question, if Beata and Horacio do not have the rights for distribution then they are violating copyright themselves by posting this on youtube.

~~Kimahri

Originally Posted by Kimahri

Very interesting indeed....I have to wonder about the music in question, if Beata and Horacio do not have the rights for distribution then they are violating copyright themselves by posting this on youtube.

~~Kimahri

It's their music.

This is very interesting. I agree that the interpretations of the first song are slightly different, but I can see that the Russian dancer was inspired by Beata's choreo. I think the similarity is stronger between Horacio's drum solo (and OT but Horacio is so amazing!).

But I know that this can be a problem. My former teacher Enussah who is based in Nuremberg Germany, is herself a prolific choreographer and puts a few big shows each year, has had problems with other performers coming in and videoing her shows and copying her choreographies. She's now very strict about no video and photos other than those hired specifically for the show.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

It's their music.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Kimahri

Thank you!

lol, you're welcome! Someone posted something here awhile back regarding Beata and Horacio requesting that people give them credit when they post a youtube video that uses their music. I think that's more than fair - but how many of us have posted vids without having permission? I'd say more than 90% of the belly dance vids posted do not seek that kind of permission, including quite a few of mine.

That song is from Oriental Fantasy Vol. 11, I think. I LOVE that version of the song - and there's an instrumental version on that CD as well, as with most of the CD's they release.

Interestingly though, I rather preferred the "copycat's" performance over Beata's in that clip.

Interestingly though, I rather preferred the "copycat's" performance over Beata's in that clip.[/QUOTE]

I was thinking the same thing at least she improved the performance.
I had my sword dance copied from video and found it to be complement I think we find inspiration from each other just like all artist and i do not think they lost money from it so what are they unhappy about not getting credit for the work ?

Originally Posted by Adishakti

There are certainly differences between the two dancers, but I think it's more than following the music.

Granted, I'm not saying I think *this* dancer is just following the music--I think it's fair to say it's at the very least quite likely she'd seen Beata's performance and taken several ideas from it. My point was 1.) that someone might do several elements similar to what was in Beata's choreo and not have ever seen her choreo at all and 2.) it's hard to know where to draw the line with this particular one between what's an actual copy and what's inspired by. I do agree, especially toward the beginning, the broad strokes are uncanny in their similarity even if the timing is a little different and the fine movements are different. Later on it varies a little more. But...it's hard to say for sure how much of "copycat's" performance is her own and how much is Beata's? How much did she study a Cifuentes video or to what extent did she once see something she liked, get some ideas and absorb them (with or without actual intent to "copy"?) I don't know.

Is there any way that she would have learned this choreography from a workshop?

From my eyes, Beata definitely has a point.

It certainly looked to me as if the dancers in those clips copied. A few differences here and there are only natural but some moves were so exact it can't be sheer coincidence.

However, I'm of the firm opinion that if someone can copy a dance just from watching it on youtube then there wasn't much going on in the first place. That's the problem with dances that are highly choreographed.It's easy to break down the moves and copy.

My next question...are they actually taking legal action against these dancers or is this just an attempt at trial and conviction via the Court of YouTube Public Opinion?

~~Kimahri

Originally Posted by Kimahri

My next question...are they actually taking legal action against these dancers or is this just an attempt at trial and conviction via the Court of YouTube Public Opinion?

~~Kimahri

That would be intersting to know. Depending on the copyright laws and any cross-country legal agreements, they may not be able to take any legal action if it is sourced from a location with less-detailed copyright protections.

i think they have taken legal action against people in the past, especially concerning the use of music. dont know about this case.

Perhaps someone from Russia could speak up, but I think their copyright laws are much more lax than in the west.

I have heard that dance cannot be owned but not sure about copyrights even where I come from ...

Did she learn the choreo with Beata or copied from her video? Did she use it with or without permission?
(I see difference in moods/stylisation: oriental versus latino?)

If the russian dancer post her clip on YouTube herself, then it looks more like an attempt to outdance Beata.
If this is Natalia Becker, then I have seen her at Beata´s competition, I thought she was very dynamic and original dancer herself. She was a runner up and second runner up one year later as far as I can remember.

Ok, so i've never been a victim to copyright infringement...however, something about this rubs me the wrong way. I think Horacio and Beata come off as rather petty for putting this up. It's a giant finger pointing and I think it is bad form. What was the real purpose of this video? Not to educate the public about copyright...I think the real purpose was vendetta. They're pushing their little copyright agenda, and they have the right to--It just makes me lose respect for them and not the copy cat.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

Ok, so i've never been a victim to copyright infringement...however, something about this rubs me the wrong way. I think Horacio and Beata come off as rather petty for putting this up. It's a giant finger pointing and I think it is bad form. What was the real purpose of this video? Not to educate the public about copyright...I think the real purpose was vendetta. They're pushing their little copyright agenda, and they have the right to--It just makes me lose respect for them and not the copy cat.

I see your point Andalee, but I also can imagine feeling angry, insulted, and impotent in their position. What can they do? What action can they take? There is no way for them to protect their work.

The don't talk smack about the dancer, they attack her actions, which is not a personal attack and so really not petty. Also, only with a side by side can they prove the point.

I do feel bad for the dancer b/c that must be embarrassing, but I know dancers who have had to sit in an audience watching as someone dances their routine step by step and takes full credit at the end. It's really painful.

I see a lot of similarities but my first thought isn't that it was a copy of Beata's choreogrpahy but two dancers who had a lot of similar training. I'd be curious to find out how many teachers in common do they have? Has the other gal trained with Beata at some point? Taken a lot of workshps with her? That would explain a whole lot of why they have a similar way of approaching the music.
Something I notice when I go to workshops and shows is that there are definate area specific "flavors" to the dance. What I saw in Texas the two times I've gone to workshops there is very different than when I go to California or Phoenix. I notice the same thing with dancers who study with instructors I'm familar with. They pick up influences from that instructor that you can almost trace the liniage of who they studied with by.
As for the drum part, lets face it there is only so much you can do to any one drum piece and what I saw was the obvious choices made to keep a group of dancers in syc with each other. I found myself anticipating some of what they did because it was what I would have done.
Then again that's just my two cents from a very tired brain so it might be more effective to toss that two cents in a wishing well...LOL!

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

I see your point Andalee, but I also can imagine feeling angry, insulted, and impotent in their position. What can they do? What action can they take? There is no way for them to protect their work.

The don't talk smack about the dancer, they attack her actions, which is not a personal attack and so really not petty. Also, only with a side by side can they prove the point.

I do feel bad for the dancer b/c that must be embarrassing, but I know dancers who have had to sit in an audience watching as someone dances their routine step by step and takes full credit at the end. It's really painful.

Yeah...I agree with you Leyla. I think the point is made, and I don't blame them one bit for feeling copied. Those performances just seem too similar to be a mere coincidence. I have another friend here in Vegas (who is also named Leyla) who did her own interpretation of a song I was dancing to. Our own respective interpretations were so vastly different that there would be no way to put them side by side and have them seem so cohesive.

well someone asked an opinion from Russia...


so it's a long story which i'm not going to dive in. I'm all along with Beata and Horacio - it's the dance from dvd concert not workshop - you cant just copy or adapt it. You can and we'll never blame too much if you're a beginner but if you consider yourself a star, have hundreds of students, have your own festival, sell dvd from this festival all over the world - that's strange. I can imagine doing so like to commemorate (if there is such a word :) someone like a saw a clip of Farida Fahmi choreo in her praise made by Sahra Saeeda group. If it was an "ode" or a "thank you" to Beata on stage. But it wasnt. The clip of Nataliya is from dvd of her festival and Beata was never mentioned on it. For me this clip in youtube was a surprise - of course i knew this dance by Natali but never imagined "how much" it was inspired by Beata. Along with the costume.
Natalya was a student of Cifuentes school long ago. As far as i know they're starting a legal case against her for using music in her dvds which are sold all over the world including germany.

As for me - i'm surprised. Being such an experienced dancer choreografer - why should they use these tabla solo moves for group??? couldnt they choose others? it's so easy. there's so many ways of expressing oneself and so many moves. And they prepared for big event which was going being filmed - i don't understand it.

As for the copyright issue itself...
When i made a topic in my forum about the request of Beata and Horacio to sign all their music in youtube - it was taken very angrily by girls. Russia is still a pirate bay and copyright issues are not respected. Girls don't want even morally to support authors and their work. I made a selection of clips from youtube to illustrate how many wonderful music we all know and use is recorded by Cifuentes. Cause they just copy it from each other and have no idea of where it comes from.

Hmmmm, interesting stuff! <I need a thinkie smilie>

The Cifuentes do make such lovely music. And yes, I think it's pirated and distributed quite a bit. ..c:: It must be exceptionally irritating - and financially damaging, since putting a CD together is such an expensive endeavour.

Not sure about the dance, though. The cosuming aside (because really, you can't copyright a costume - I guess unless you actually made it yourself. Hm.), I think there's bits of the second dancer's dancing that's like Beata's. But it's bits - there's big chunks where it's not really similar at all, to my eye. I think there's no doubt that the second dancer has seen Beata's choreo, and liked bits of it, and taken combos from it and put it in her own choreo. Which justifies credit on the basis of "inspired by" at least, in my book.

I don't think it's a blatant rip-off, though.

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

I realize I'm probably going to get shouted at here, but....Honestly...with the soloist at the beginning, I *don't* necessarily think they look *that* similar. The color schemes are similar. They are shot similarly. They hear the music in similar fashion. But if you watch carefully, the St. Petersburg soloist is using different movements throughout--different arms, she's accenting at different times, she's doing different movements, shes at times traveling when Beata's still and vice versa...the feeling is similar and maybe it's fair to say she was inspired by Beata Cifuentes if she saw her performance, but I don't think it's a copy of the choreography. I've seen many people dance to versions of that song (have danced to it myself and have never seen nor heard the Beata version before) and many people take dramatic pauses where she does, travel in roughly those places, do some "spanish-y" feeling moves in those places, etc. That's not copying Beata--that's following the music.

The drum solo, on the other hand, does look pretty close...

Makes me nervous to even admit this, but I have to agree with you. There are certain movements that are typically done with certain rhythms, to a violin, with an accent, etc., and when I think of what I would do in those moments, it would be the same or close to what either of them did. I think that she watched Beata perform to this song and the similar moves were in her head, but that she did much of the choreography on her own. I would call it inspired rather than copied.