Thread: Auditions

Originally Posted by kiyaana

There are some photos of a Teena Byrd in Maryland in a bellydance costume

Oh my.

Ok Teena, lets get real and honest here.
If the pics on My Space are you and you plan on performing at professional venues in that costume. you have already missed the mark of a true professional. Please tell me that the costume was put on for private photos only and perhaps nostalgia. You look like a pro in it alright, but not the type of pro you are saying you want to be.
Current costuming has changed and the look of your costume on My Space is only fit for low class mens clubs or a Halloween party as it is worn in the photos. I think a suggestion was made to add a skirt and maybe underwear? Good advice.
Get a clue. You have You tube, you have said so. Use your eyes to see what professional well respected dancers are wearing and doing. If you are so convinced you can do this on your own without a teacher, you better step it up and show us what ya got and by that I dont mean your "should be covered parts"

cn anybody give suggesions on where to apply for a job as a doctor in the washington dc area? links and phone numbers would be appreciated.

i'm self taught from watching reruns of house, er, dr welby, grays anatomy, and scrubs, except for some stuff i learned playing doctor with the other kids in the neighborhood and what i picked up from my mom who was a doctor back in the 70s. i know how to use a stethoscope and take blood pressure. im not 18 and believe that the idea i need to go to med school (as opposed to videos and taking the red cross first aid course) is partially respectable, but also just an excuse to make money, a racket. i dont think bypassing that makes me disrespectful; the poeple who made money off the videos etc i bought have been my teachers and have my money to show for it. im not averse to doing an internship but im not rolling in cash (or time for that matter) and i think not to seek work now is simply procrastinating and growing fear. if i could find a hospital that will offer me an internship and guide me into and through the steps to beocming a professional instead of putting on the brakes i would gladly pay them the same fee as college tuition....if we could only move forward immediately instead of wasting my time stretching out classes that may not teach me anything new. I'm not desperate to get started; I'm enthusiastic to get started.

and i have my mothers old lab coat from the 70s that i cn wear.

e.nigma - love it!

I want to be clear that I asked Teena if that is her on MySpace because some earlier posts were doubting her existence.

Teena, if you're still reading this thread, I was trying to be helpful.

If you are still interested in pursuing a bellydance performance path, working with an experienced instructor is absolutely the way to go. She (or he, but mostly "she" in your area) will educate you in the many, many aspects of the dance and performance of it, including costuming.

Best of luck with your endeavors.

One thing occurred to me: no one I know who teaches would do it primarily for the money. I know very few teachers (belly dance or any other type of dance) who make a significant amount of money from it. Most of the teachers I know are struggling with trying to get more students and having enough students to pay the studio rental rate and still make it worth their time to teach at all. And some of these teachers are extremely qualified and excellent.

The teachers who do make decent money (in my observation) do so by relentlessly working their butts off and are usually on the road. They bust their asses constantly marketing, blogging, promoting, creating new material, and performing at the workshop they just traveled hundreds or thousands of miles to teach at ... and this addition to a zillion other tasks I would have no clue about. And they do this so that they can make more money, yes, but it's a relatively small amount of money from many individual consumers. The notion that a teacher would "hang on to you" for extra money or that it's a good "racket" is unlikely. It's not a "cushy" life. Yes, the money does add up; your (for example) $15 three times a week does make a difference over time, but one student, no matter how dedicated, isn't really going to make a significant difference in any teacher's income for very long. A student's money is, I'm sure, appreciated and necessary, but the amount of effort involved with it disqualifies teaching as a "racket."

Originally Posted by Nabila-Nazem

One thing occurred to me: no one I know who teaches would do it primarily for the money. I know very few teachers (belly dance or any other type of dance) who make a significant amount of money from it. Most of the teachers I know are struggling with trying to get more students and having enough students to pay the studio rental rate and still make it worth their time to teach at all. And some of these teachers are extremely qualified and excellent.

The teachers who do make decent money (in my observation) do so by relentlessly working their butts off and are usually on the road. They bust their asses constantly marketing, blogging, promoting, creating new material, and performing at the workshop they just traveled hundreds or thousands of miles to teach at ... and this addition to a zillion other tasks I would have no clue about. And they do this so that they can make more money, yes, but it's a relatively small amount of money from many individual consumers. The notion that a teacher would "hang on to you" for extra money or that it's a good "racket" is unlikely. It's not a "cushy" life. Yes, the money does add up; your (for example) $15 three times a week does make a difference over time, but one student, no matter how dedicated, isn't really going to make a significant difference in any teacher's income for very long. A student's money is, I'm sure, appreciated and necessary, but the amount of effort involved with it disqualifies teaching as a "racket."

That's assuming you're dealing with a good teacher.
Just to play devils advocate, if Teena's experience is with a 6 week wonder, I can understand being wary of getting burned by an unethical shark- Find a quality teacher, tho, & you WILL get what you pay for (& often so much more!) because they do it as a vocation rather than 'just a job'

e.nigma - that's a bit much...being a doctor is totally different than being an artist. I think the point can be better made with a more comparable equivalent. Education is good for both caution and safety and also not to make oneself or one's art form look bad, but as much as the rest of us don't like it, a belly dancing upstart hardly endangers lives (well other than potentially her own...unless she's out of control with her sword or something...)

Nabila, nice points about teachers.

I'm in the DC area and here's my experience with my three primary teachers concerning money.

The first was the one who got me into performing. She has always been very supportive.

The second told me it would be helpful to take two of her classes, but understanding that it's an expense, did not require it of me to move up into the advanced class.

The third offered to barter with me when I lost my job and and had to make cutbacks.

Clearly none of them were running some sort of racket to take my money for nothing. They have earned every cent I've paid them and probably more.

Lara's right too - there are unethical teachers out there, but luckily Teeny lives in an area with many amazing and ethical teachers that the community can vouch for.

Channel that eager enthusiasm to perform towards classes and practice and you'll be amazed at how far it takes you!

oops wrong thread

I just want to make a cursory apology for inspiring so much rank ire in this thread. I never meant to turn my nose up to education, practice, teachers, workshops and I certainly never meant to imply that I was above or beyond teachable. At this point in my life, I am seeking to go pro. I feel my money and time is currently better spent paying off my first pro costume, getting cards made, getting CDs together for gigs, etc.; but I do not plan to never take another class. My priorities differ from all of yours, apparently; or perhaps there is too much overt concern that I would take away business, since I'm such a noob (nubian? or newbie?)...

Yes, that is me on MySpace. If you noticed the title of that album, you would have read completely "Missing Pieces," and if you had read my profile, you'd also be aware that my Mom was also a stripper and that I (personally) consider both art forms (my father owned 6 strip clubs, all my half-sisters and their mother were strippers...and I don't care for nor need to read your moral judgments (especially considering that both 'expressions' "gyrate and g-rate on election day."

I am wearing underwear in that photo. I'm sorry you're too offended by the lines of a body (strange reaction for a dancer) to have taken a closer look and seen for yourself.

I've wasted enough of my time justifying myself to you. I'm really taken aback, as I was so assured that 'bellydancers are a tight-knit community and always looking to help other dancers out and to mentor.' Just as I had thought, there's not much truth in that, and most of you seem to be just as catty, conniving, and vindictive as the common stripper. I will not be deterred by caterwauling or opinion.

If you're not helping me, then move...

My instructor that has danced for 30+ years still takes classes and workshops. You are always learning. It's constant. You learn from all kinds of people. I learn every day, not just dance but everything!

The only thing about the photos that were bothersome to me was the of you doing a backbend and your butt and some cooter area was coming out. Lots of belly dancers don't want to be portrayed in that light. Sure, we show belly, legs but it was almost too much. I have no problem with nudity, I photograph a TON of it as that is how I make my living. I hope people weren't being catty in their remarks, I read them and I didn't see them that way.

Stay on Bhuz. Get to know the people on here. They are pretty danged cool and are really helpful and extremely blunt. There have been times I wanted to crawl under a rock but then I realized that their bluntness really meant that they were helping. I like that about Bhuz.

Originally Posted by TeenaByrd

I never meant to turn my nose up to education, practice, teachers, workshops and I certainly never meant to imply that I was above or beyond teachable. At this point in my life, I am seeking to go pro. I feel my money and time is currently better spent paying off my first pro costume, getting cards made, getting CDs together for gigs, etc.; but I do not plan to never take another class.

See, this is where you have it all backwards:
1. Get a costume, business cards, etc.
2. Do gigs
3. At some later point, perhaps take some classes.

Most of us do it this way:
1. Take adequate classes, privates and training so as to insure that we don't suck.
2. Get costumes and gigs.

Therein lies the source of the ire, TeenaByrd. Those of us who take the dance seriously get oh so tired of people who attempt to step into the professional realm before they are ready. Its not that undertrained dancers compete with real professionals, its that they erode and destroy the opportunities to dance. When Joe Q. Public who's never seen a good belly dancer sees a crappy belly dancer, he's not going to say "wow, that was a terrible belly dancer; I hope the next one I see is much better.". He's going to say "wow, belly dancing is stupid and not very entertaining. It certainly isn't real dancing. It looks like anyone could do it.". And the next time a legitimate dancer tries to promote a high quality event, all those Joe Q. and Jane Q. Publics that have been exposed to the wanna-be are not going to be open to giving it another shot.

That's why we're pissy.

If you actually wanted to learn to be a better dancer, you would probably find that tight-knit community you have heard about.

End of rant.

The other thing I don't understand is why some people are so desperate to go pro. The dance should be fun. I think a lot of people do it as fun and then the pro thing just happens....at least I know it's happend with quite a few people.

All I can say is to take classes and network.....this will get your foot in the door!

Originally Posted by TeenaByrd

At this point in my life, I am seeking to go pro.

To go pro, your skills need to be at a professional level in order to be successful. The best way to determine your skill level is to join classes or find a mentor-instructor who can honestly evaluate you. A pro costume and business cards are not enough - to be a professional you must have the education and skills to back it up. If you are unwilling to take that step first, then you may not find the dance community very supportive. Many of us have worked for decades on our dance educations and are well-respected pros with a lot of good information to share with you. If you would like specific teacher/instructor/mentor recommendations, I would be happy to share the names of some respected dancers in your general area who would be able to give you information on what it will take to bring you to the pro level. If you would prefer to email me in private for information on what I consider to be minimum skills and how I train dancers to perform professionally, please feel free to do so at mahsati@mahsati-janan.com. I would not be able to be an instructor to you as I am not located in your area, but I would be happy to walk you through finding the areas that you should bring up for discussion in private lessons or a coaching session with one of your local professional dancers.

Originally Posted by TeenaByrd

...most of you seem to be just as catty, conniving, and vindictive...

Certainly, you must have realized you weren't endearing yourself to anybody here when you chose to refer to dance education as "a racket". There are some very blunt and a couple rude posts on this thread. However, nobody is being conniving, vindictive or catty. Choosing to interpret what people here are saying that way will limit you from seeing what we are really trying to do, which is help. We don't want to see you make a fool of your self, and some of what you have posted brought up those concerns, we don't want to see you get taken advantage of or hurt.

Of course some of that is self interested, we don't want our profession to look bad because it is represented by people who have chosen not to put in the years of work and training that many of us have. We also don't want to see a new dancer undercut because she struggles to get gigs on merit alone (which happens so often, it is just an assumed point with many dancers).

But it isn't all self interest, a dancer without much training isn't much of a threat to a strong experienced dancer. I find it very arrogant that so many jump to the conclusion that somebody with real skill and experience would feel threatened so easily. None of my gigs are at stake here, nor are the gigs of my professional dancing friends. Most often new dancers get hired at a lower paying place where quality isn't highly valued, and/or only for a short period of time, until the novelty of a new face has worn off. Unless she proves herself to be really good, then she has potential to get someplace. I and I also think we, speaking on behalf of most pro dancers I know, want for you to make the right choices so in the long term you can look back and feel good about how you've handled yourself, and feel glad that you decided to take a little tough talk and get the real value from it. That you can feel you did right by yourself, your art form and your local dance community.

continued in next post...

part 2

Since from your last point it seems unlikely that you really want to seek a teacher or mentor for further advice, I'm going to give you this, free of charge, for your own benefit and safety.

1 - We have going rates in our area, you can find them here - belly dance rates - with an adjoining article here Standard rates and professional links and guidelines - if you choose to charge less than the going rates even as you start, you will be digging a hole for yourself that you will not easily get out of, and you will find what real ire looks like, because the dancers in this area hate undercutters. Venue owners will try to get you to work for less, they will ask you to dance for free and try to take advantage of you however they can. So when you pursue your gigs, charge appropriately. You'll be glad you did.

2- We live in an area with a lot of diplomats and ambassadors. They have something called diplomatic immunity. This means that should one of them hire you to dance in their room and they decide to rape you, you have zero legal recourse. They could kill you and they wouldn't be held accountable, not by our govt, and possibly not their own.

Many of the Middle Eastern men in this area, venue owners and patrons will think of you as prostitute and try and bring you home with them, particularly if you aren't a highly skilled dancer. If you sleep with venue owners, musicians or patrons, ever, even if your intentions aren't to be a prostitute, rest assured that every customer at all future gigs will know every detail of your sexual encounter including several made up details. Also, extra services will be expected of you, your audiences will become much less respectful and more invasive. You don't actually have to sleep with anybody to get this response either. You will be judged for how you dress on your way to and from your gig, and if your sit and drink with the patrons when you aren't dancing, how you dance, how you speak. If you let any patron take liberties with you, the patrons will start thinking it is okay to take liberties with other dancers. Again, do you want to see real dancers' ire? Stretch those boundaries, blur the lines a little between stripping and belly dancing and other dancers will hate you, because your behavior effects them directly.

On those same lines, don't take it too seriously when the male patrons compliment you - they often are trying to get you to sleep with them. Be especially wary of those who tell you they want to make you a star and you should travel to the Middle East with them. In the Middle East you can completely lose your rights. Sex slaves, forced prostitution and other terrible things still happen and you need to be aware of the dangers.

okay, good luck to you. I hope you charge fair wages and stay safe.

Deleted.

Originally Posted by TeenaByrd

If you had read my profile, you'd also be aware that my Mom was also a stripper and that I (personally) consider both art forms (my father owned 6 strip clubs, all my half-sisters and their mother were strippers...and I don't care for nor need to read your moral judgments

there r several strippers who use bhuz and they are accepted members of this community. i dont think anyone judged u for ur connections to strippers so no need to be defensive about htat. we just dont like it when someone mixes stirpping with bellydance but i dont think anyone is accusing u of that.

Originally Posted by TeenaByrd

I've wasted enough of my time justifying myself to you. I'm really taken aback, as I was so assured that 'bellydancers are a tight-knit community and always looking to help other dancers out and to mentor.' Just as I had thought, there's not much truth in that, and most of you seem to be just as catty, conniving, and vindictive as the common stripper. I will not be deterred by caterwauling or opinion.

If you're not helping me, then move...

bellydancers do help each other but u have to earn the right to be helped by getting the skillz and building peoples trust. best way to break into clubs is by subbing and the dancers who need subs only call ppl they think r good enough. best way to break into private party gigs is to get referrals from other dancers but again ppl only refer to those they think r good. im not saying u arent good bcause i havent seen u dance. but no one in ur area knows u and if they dont know u they wont send gigs ur way.

im not in ur area so im not afraid youll take gigs from me. im just trying to explian how it works.

it does seem odd that u think its higher priority to spend money on costumes and bcards than on ensuring ur skills are up to pro standards.

An attitude, no skills, no references to an experienced instructor doesn't get a job.

You may think the advice on here is friviolity, but it's not. It's excellent advice which you can take or leave. My advice to is to take it, because I seriously doubt it you'll get hired anywhere without gaining the knowledge that you need.

Pro costumes come after you've taken classes, and gained skills and knowledge. A pro costume doesn't make the dancer, although some six week wonders think so.

Now that I've read the angry come back, it occurs to me that T's original comments come from her understanding of the stripping biz -- which is clearly has had a longer business history.

There are more people who work and are paid as professional strippers, than there are amateurs who strip at haflas, and the opposite is true for bellydancers. {I mean that more amateurs bellydance and aren't paid, and who do it for enjoyment as a hobby, than there are paid, full-time bellydancers who make the bulk of their cash from BD].

So from someone from the former background, who has an understanding of the stripping biz as she does....could she be viewing bellydance as a parallel type of business opportunity?

I'm not writing this well....I mean it could be a misunderstanding of the "profession" of bellydance - which is that 99.99999999% of us, even when paid, barely break even and that big bucks - whether in tips, regular gigs or whatever - it ain't gonna buy that chateaux in France.

This isn't meant to add to any ranting - it just occurred to me when I read TeenaByrd's response.

I see she's deleted her last thread. Maybe she got the hint....

There are certainly alot of people who start bellydancing, and then find out that it's not what they think it is and leave the building.

Money-spinner. That's the word I was trying to think of...bellydance is NOT a money-spinner. It's the thing we want to money-spin FOR.

I see another flouncing has commenced...

Shems, that was a very good response. I hope she pays attention because there is some very important DC info there.

I do sense that she has tired of the thread tho.

Gosh, can't imagine why.

Got any good recipes?

I can't imagine.......

Originally Posted by BELLA_BELLA

So from someone from the former background, who has an understanding of the stripping biz as she does....could she be viewing bellydance as a parallel type of business opportunity?

I'm not writing this well....I mean it could be a misunderstanding of the "profession" of bellydance - which is that 99.99999999% of us, even when paid, barely break even and that big bucks - whether in tips, regular gigs or whatever - it ain't gonna buy that chateaux in France.

I have no idea if this was the case with the OP, but I do have an anecdotal story sort of along these lines. A year or so ago, I was contacted via email by a girl who wanted to take lessons, and right off the bat she started talking about going pro. She also, for some reason, attached a picture of herself. As we corresponded, she basically communicated that she was an exotic dancer who was looking to transition into becoming a Belly Dancer because she felt she was getting a little long in the tooth to keep stripping (she was in her late 20s). I explained to her that the pay for Belly Dancers in our area was fairly low, and paid gigs are scarce. It didn't sound like she was listening to me, but she never showed up for classes and I've not heard of her since, so maybe she did eventually take my word for it.