Thread: others choreography and not giving credit

Hello All,

What do you think of dancers/ especially teachers who teach a choreo and claim it as their own body of work? Myself I always give credit where it is due. I recently found out I learned a choreo a few years back that I thought the teacher did. Turns out it was a Suhaila choreo! Why do people do that ??? I was so blown away. Why would you not tell your students they were learning something from the legendary Suhaila? People can be real strange sometimes.
Lets hear your thoughts on this.

No if, ands, or buts about it - It's very unprofessional and unethical.

Agreed, credit should always be given, and if you have changed enough of the choreography to make it yours, you should say "choreography inspired by....."

I would never teach another dancer's full choreography to my class or soon-to-be troupe. Combinations, you betcha, but even then I will always say, "I learned this super cute combination at the Morroco workshop last month!" or whatever.

I used to think I would never perform another person't choreo either (I'm SUCH a control freak), but at the IBDC I learned the most adorable baladi choreo from Lubna Emam that I simply must bring to the Midwest. So I will perform it - with very minor tweaks - and give full credit in my intro.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I would never teach another dancer's full choreography to my class or soon-to-be troupe. Combinations, you betcha, but even then I will always say, "I learned this super cute combination at the Morroco workshop last month!" or whatever.

I used to think I would never perform another person't choreo either (I'm SUCH a control freak), but at the IBDC I learned the most adorable baladi choreo from Lubna Emam that I simply must bring to the Midwest. So I will perform it - with very minor tweaks - and give full credit in my intro.

Good girl Lauren!! I missed all the workshops, I'd love to see it!

When I teach a choreography workshop, at the end I tell my students:

1 - This is yours. You paid for it, it's yours. Take it. Twist it. Do anything you want to it.
2 - You do not need to give me credit. I would like it, but nothing is more creepy than no one else getting an announcent and then the voice, "This choreography was written by Jim Boz..."
3 - If it is appropriate for the venue, such as a showcase in a theater where there is a program specifically listing choreographers, I'd like the plug -- keeping in mind #4 below.
4 - IF you perform my choreography, especially if you announce my name attached to it...I ask that you simply (and those of you who have taken my workshops have heard this already ,r:; ): Please Don't Suck!

Originally Posted by JimBoz

When I teach a choreography workshop, at the end I tell my students:

1 - This is yours. You paid for it, it's yours. Take it. Twist it. Do anything you want to it.
2 - You do not need to give me credit. I would like it, but nothing is more creepy than no one else getting an announcent and then the voice, "This choreography was written by Jim Boz..."
3 - If it is appropriate for the venue, such as a showcase in a theater where there is a program specifically listing choreographers, I'd like the plug -- keeping in mind #4 below.
4 - IF you perform my choreography, especially if you announce my name attached to it...I ask that you simply (and those of you who have taken my workshops have heard this already ,r:; ): Please Don't Suck!

..l;,

that is funny. I agree with you, when I teach a choreography, it is yours to do as you wish. I don't "own" it. You may take it and use it as you wish.

However, I have taught a choreography that I learned at Suhaila's that I've changed so much as to be 90% different - but I let everyone know that it was "inspired by" suhaila. That was the one and only time I've done that, and I personally didn't feel right not saying that it was inspired by her.

All the choreo's I teach are mine. And people pay for them, and I don't mind them using it....at all.....
in fact, why bother taking the choreo class if you are NOT going to use it , or any combos therein?

Originally Posted by Aradia

Good girl Lauren!! I missed all the workshops, I'd love to see it!

It was to Hakim's "Boos". That was the nail in the coffin -I just had to do it. I love that song!

I'll be performing it at the Jim Boz show here in September, in the hella cute Fifi-style striped galabeya/bra set that I also just happened to acquire at the IBDC. I guess I really need to put an IBDC shout out in the intro as well.

Like most Shaia Fahrid events, there will be a DVD eventually - I'll be sure to send you a video clip.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I would never teach another dancer's full choreography to my class or soon-to-be troupe. Combinations, you betcha, but even then I will always say, "I learned this super cute combination at the Morroco workshop last month!" or whatever.

I'm the same- I'll even give the combination the name of the teacher I learned it from, when I use it in class: The Horacio Circle Combo, the Reda Box, the Leila Diagonal...

The original question was not about *performing* other people's choreo', but about teaching them.

My take on it, is that I have certain choreographies that I am still using, for my own teaching purposes. So while I am very happy for people to perform my routines, (and I think I will be stealing JimBoz's #4 rule ..g.: ), I may object to people teaching my choreographies when they are still part of my active teaching repertoire. I'm not Suhaila or Jillina- I need a USP for people to come to my workshops.

Most teachers and performers do seem to acknowledge the "author" but a teacher may have learnt it from another, it may be embellished and end up anonymous in all innocence.
However I have just been told of a couple of teachers who taught a "specialist" workshop with a choreography and one of their students recognised it as a direct lift from a well known tribal DVD.There was no hint it being nothing other than all their own work. Now that really isn't fair and what is the probelm is accepting that you are using a tried and tested choreography?

i've seen it done in tribal land a few times, people teaching rachel brice choreo's, BUT with giving credit for it, so i assume she allows it...
and i agree with lizajuk, i think the problem might be third and fourtthand rather than second hand, the teacher who teaches a choreo learned from a Big Name, might give Big Name credit, but then some of the people that took the workshop and also teach ... might not... and then down the line someone might recognize it again...

bottom line: the only thing you can do is really educate your students and, like bea said, I also tell them "This is an aziza combination, and this is a Suhaila one and this is from Hadia", and not just say it once, but a few times and hope it sinks in ;-) with combinations and moves and exercises i think it's a free for all anyway so less important eventually, but with choreo's hmm... we really also need to teach our students proper etiquette there and try to give them some awareness of how to deal with this, as sooner or later several will teach themselves.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

Most teachers and performers do seem to acknowledge the "author" but a teacher may have learnt it from another, it may be embellished and end up anonymous in all innocence.
However I have just been told of a couple of teachers who taught a "specialist" workshop with a choreography and one of their students recognised it as a direct lift from a well known tribal DVD.There was no hint it being nothing other than all their own work. Now that really isn't fair and what is the probelm is accepting that you are using a tried and tested choreography?

I saw myself on video crediting someone for a choreo and it looked weird, plus I'd altered a lot of it anyway. Yes I realise this thread is about teaching, but as someone who finds it really hard to remember choreos, my brain tends to alter things I learned into my own style anyway, which seems is a bonus for this sort of thing...always inspired by, never copying...

I recently had to ask a student to leave my classes because she was:

A. Teaching my class choreographies to her students

and

B. Performing my choreographies when promoting her business

No credit was given, and no permission was sought prior. To me this is a big NO No!

Originally Posted by JimBoz

4 - IF you perform my choreography, especially if you announce my name attached to it...I ask that you simply (and those of you who have taken my workshops have heard this already ,r:; ): Please Don't Suck!

..l;, That's too funny. I had a good chuckle when you said that in Toronto. But you KNOW, Jim... people doing your choreos can be of either spectrum unless the workshop was an advanced one.

As for performing versus teaching choreos - there's no way I'd teach my students another person's choreography, even with permission because my students are paying me to learn to dance. I know it's not a bad thing to do with permission and I wouldn't condone anyone for doing so, but if they are paying me to teach them to dance I feel wrong about presenting another dancer's material. Now, I know taking ownership of what I choose to dance or teach is a touchy subject because really - most of our dancing comes from one source or another, but a whole choreography is really a lot to be using. (Hey Jim - you know that yummy juicy figure 8 and omi combo your taught us in your Ma Betishaloosh Leh choreo? In one form or another, that is sooo part of my own dancing now. Thanks)! ..g.:

I'll perform another person's choreo from time to time, and it's inevitable for our troupe performances, but when there is a way to credit the choreographer, it needs to be done. I don't feel permission is needed to perform a number though, because you paid the instructor for it. It's fun to learn new dances from other people, but in the end - it's not your own... everyone's musical interpretation and styles are different. My dancing is stronger when I'm interpreting the music the way I feel it, and feeling is not something I'm able to mimic effectively. Heck - feeling is the best part of MED, so why bother mimicking?

I really want to improve my improv skills, because I'd really like to do away with choreography under most circumstances. Workin' on it! ..g.:

At any rate, if there is an opportunity to credit a choreographer for your performance and you don't - that's stealing as far as I'm concerned. As for teaching - I'd be seriously disgruntled if I paid an instructor for a lesson and was taught someone else's material, so I don't do it. If you want to teach your students another person's choreography - why not charge your students a little extra and get that dancer in for a workshop to teach it themselves? Teaching combos and other little moves feels fine to me - you just credit the person for the move in class is all. Nothing wrong with that.

In the end, I guess we all are comfortable with different things... so if you're teaching a choreo, it's probably best to make your expectations made clear to your students so that there is no guesswork.

Shimmy 'n Sheik? That's just really crappy! Good for you for telling her to leave!

Ugh. I'm rambling again.

ah, teaching choreo's, definitely give credit. However, like I said before, I've done that once, and it was changed so much, at least 90% as to be unrecognizable....and I do say "inspired by".
I was originally thinking performing....

Thank you all for your thoughts on the matter. The original question was related to her taking credit for creating something that obviously not hers. I even checked my notes binder the other night and no where on the sheet was there any indication of this being a Suhaila piece.
She had her name on it. What is the matter with people?
Anyway, thanks for all your thoughts! susu

These are my thoughts and sentiments exactly! I tell the same to my students. There have been rare moments where I had that pang that made me want to lay claim or protect my choreography but I didn't because I feel it is a slippery slope to "no one can use blah blah".

It's okay for some but I don't want to be like that as others have been so generous with me. I want to pass the love around!

That said, it has been painful sometimes to know that your hard work is going somewhere you don't want it to though.

Originally Posted by JimBoz

When I teach a choreography workshop, at the end I tell my students:

1 - This is yours. You paid for it, it's yours. Take it. Twist it. Do anything you want to it.
2 - You do not need to give me credit. I would like it, but nothing is more creepy than no one else getting an announcent and then the voice, "This choreography was written by Jim Boz..."
3 - If it is appropriate for the venue, such as a showcase in a theater where there is a program specifically listing choreographers, I'd like the plug -- keeping in mind #4 below.
4 - IF you perform my choreography, especially if you announce my name attached to it...I ask that you simply (and those of you who have taken my workshops have heard this already ,r:; ): Please Don't Suck!

i'm with many of you on this ........in workshops i've been in, it's been made PATENTLY CLEAR that the choreos are ours to perform, but not to teach.... i'm currently using 3 choreos in my regular performances (new for me as i'm mostly an improv dancer, but these choreo's ROCK!) and in stage and haflas, i give credit to the original artist, but i NEVER TEACH the choreo.....that's THEIR sweat and work and inspiration and interpretation and to take credit for someone else's choreo is at best, lazy (cuz ya can't come up with yer own) and at worst, plagiarism....my 2 cents only and very humble opinion, but there was a recent troupe breakdown cuz not only did a director/teacher claim other's choreography as her own, but seriously misled students and associates as to the level of experience (sorry, but videos and the occasional workshop does NOT mean you've TRAINED with that person)

oop, sheepishly stepping off the inadvertant soapbox........(and slinking away on tippytoe)

How do choreographers in other dance realms protect their work?

In most of their productions, my old ballet school gave credit to Marius Petipa for his works from the 19th century (yes, they were purists). If he can get recognition more than a century later, what can we do to get credit for our work? (besides rely on the nice people in this thread ..g.: ) Is this something that comes from being a big name, or can the work be legally protected?

there was an entire legal drawn out fight over martha grahams work, in NYC, not too long ago.
It was written up lots in the NY Times.
if you google it, it will come up.
the fight was over her choreographies, and who can perform them.

I would zip a curtesy e-mail to Suhaila to inform her.....

Originally Posted by Lucinia

I would zip a curtesy e-mail to Suhaila to inform her.....

i don't think it's necessary. it really is 90% different and there's nothing wrong with performing something "inspired by" another dancer. i think you really only need credit the inspiration, and you shouldn't need to inform them unless you want to make em feel good. maria has only taught this to our troupe of 5 (as far as i know) so it's not like she's made any kind of profit on it.

If you put your choreography into print or filmed you can say it's yours for 50 years according to copyright.
However you can't claim a step or a combination within that choreography and if another dancer did your choreography even with minor alterations you wouldn't find anything very easy to prove in law as far as I can see. That's UK copyright/patent law

Originally Posted by jawahir

i don't think it's necessary. it really is 90% different and there's nothing wrong with performing something "inspired by" another dancer. i think you really only need credit the inspiration, and you shouldn't need to inform them unless you want to make em feel good. maria has only taught this to our troupe of 5 (as far as i know) so it's not like she's made any kind of profit on it.

I assume she meant the original post, not Maria.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

If you put your choreography into print or filmed you can say it's yours for 50 years according to copyright.
However you can't claim a step or a combination within that choreography and if another dancer did your choreography even with minor alterations you wouldn't find anything very easy to prove in law as far as I can see. That's UK copyright/patent law

:-) In US, it's life plus 75 years (Thank you to the late Congressman Sonny Bono!) for copyright.

Also, you can claim a "step or a combination" -- but you have to be able to prove that it is so unique and so associated with you that to have it used without copyright permission would be detrimental to you (assuming that means to your ability to make a living). Guess that would make it more like a "trademark." (new can of legal worms . . .) Can't imagine there are too many instances where that's possible to prove!!

Originally Posted by kamilia

How do choreographers in other dance realms protect their work?

In most of their productions, my old ballet school gave credit to Marius Petipa for his works from the 19th century (yes, they were purists). If he can get recognition more than a century later, what can we do to get credit for our work? (besides rely on the nice people in this thread ..g.: ) Is this something that comes from being a big name, or can the work be legally protected?

Although it is a decade old, IMHO, this article is still the best on copyright and dance . . .

http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/copyrigh.html

Ooooh...stimulating reading material for work...thanks!!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I assume she meant the original post, not Maria.

I hope so. It really is very different from what I was taught.
I'm not teaching it to others - except my company - and not profitting from it in any way. I've told them from the VERY beginning that it was suhaila's even though it's 90% different.....
so, I say "inspired by" because *I* don't feel right not saying that.
(Jawahir can vouch for me on that one!)

Also, we are always inspired by others that came before us.
I am constantly inspired by the old Egyptian bellydancing greats from the hey dey of Egyptian film.
Should everytime I dance to one of the songs from those movies, or dance in similar to their style, should I constantly say "inspired by"

Nothing is new under the sun, we are all inspired by others.......
if we are just inspired by them - and changing our dance to fit our own style, which is what I've done with my dance inspired by Suhaila, and I *Do* have my own style of dance from the Egyptian greats,
it starts to get silly IMO -

Now, if you are lifting the choreo 100% and not giving credit, and profitting from it, that's something different.