Thread: Supporting another dancers event...

I have been invited to support another dancers event. I would like to give my support and bring along a student group to dance at it (this is what the other dancer requested).

I have presented it to my classes as a great opportunity, but the reception has been luke warm at best. Now I feel that I will be letting the other dancer down, but I can't force the class to perform if they don't want to.

Part of the problem is that the other dancer wanted me to collect the ticket money for the event, so the students were hit with 'do you want to perform' and if so can you bring in £8 next week... all in one go, and I think it might have put them off...

I can't offer to dance myself as I am out of town that weekend. What would Bhuz do ?

I might start with asking the students the reason for their tepid response.

Originally Posted by Asteria

I have been invited to support another dancers event. I would like to give my support and bring along a student group to dance at it (this is what the other dancer requested).

I have presented it to my classes as a great opportunity, but the reception has been luke warm at best. Now I feel that I will be letting the other dancer down, but I can't force the class to perform if they don't want to.

Part of the problem is that the other dancer wanted me to collect the ticket money for the event, so the students were hit with 'do you want to perform' and if so can you bring in £8 next week... all in one go, and I think it might have put them off...

I can't offer to dance myself as I am out of town that weekend. What would Bhuz do ?

I'd try and chat to your students about it. Have they performed before or is it the money that's putting them off? Do only some want to perform would others prefer to just go and watch? It is tricky especially if you're not going to be there to help soothe any nerves.

Originally Posted by Asteria

I have been invited to support another dancers event. I would like to give my support and bring along a student group to dance at it (this is what the other dancer requested).

I have presented it to my classes as a great opportunity, but the reception has been luke warm at best. Now I feel that I will be letting the other dancer down, but I can't force the class to perform if they don't want to.

Part of the problem is that the other dancer wanted me to collect the ticket money for the event, so the students were hit with 'do you want to perform' and if so can you bring in £8 next week... all in one go, and I think it might have put them off...

I can't offer to dance myself as I am out of town that weekend. What would Bhuz do ?

If they are feeling a bit perturbed, it would not produce a confident performance from them, particularly as they may not truly find it enjoyable. To go along to a halfah and perform without the guidance and support of the teacher can be something that may be putting them off, depending on their experience and also how they relate and gel as a group. I'd personally not force the issue and give them the option not to go, as causing pressure just to be supportive to another teacher may be at the expense of your group's trust in you. That's what I'd do anyway. A pressured and forced performance may knock confidence and put them all back for months.

Like the others have said, I would ask them why. If you think the honest answer might be uncomfortable, you can always tell the organizer that there just weren't enough students available on the show date to make your current choreography work.

I would probably be honest with the organizer, though, no matter what the reason turns out to be. I had to pull my student troupe out of the lineup for the local Pride festival this summer, because there just weren't many members who felt comfortable performing there, and I needed a minimum of 5 to make the choreo work. I hated having to tell the organizer, because I thought it reflected very poorly on my troupe, but I thought they deserved to know the real reason.

Is that how the event organizer put it, you're invited to 'support her event?' How odd. That phrase alone might be putting everyone off.

Usually dancers put on these events in order to allow local students the opportunity to showcase their learning and have fun together, and people are invited to share in the fun.


My advice is to let go of the feeling that you're somehow obligated to the event organizer. It's lovely to be invited to perform, and I think it requires a gracious response. But your obligation is to your students, and providing them with the experiences they value.

I'm curious, too, why their response is so lukewarm and I'd ask. Students in my area typically have to pay to attend the haflas where they dance -- but they do get to watch most of the show and there's usually food, etc so no one complains. If they do, I set them straight. They're not pros who are going to draw a paying crowd into the event with their performance, they are students and this event is being put on for them, to give them a place to showcase their learning!

But some students have zero interest in performing, and if your group doesn't care for performing at all this might hold no appeal for them. I agree that if some want to dance and others want to watch and cheer for them, that's a great solution.

If necessary, I'd just tell the organizer that I wish I were available, but I'm not and my students have declined the opportunity because [insert whatever the reason is]. But thank you so much for inviting us, and I hope you'll invite us again in the future.

wait, they are performing and still being charged to attend? Personally, I'd have a problem with that. Like someone hiring me to photograph a party and then telling me I have to buy a ticket to the party. Dancing for free is one thing, paying someone to dance at their party is a bit weird, even for only 8 bucks.

Originally Posted by JShane

wait, they are performing and still being charged to attend? Personally, I'd have a problem with that. Like someone hiring me to photograph a party and then telling me I have to buy a ticket to the party. Dancing for free is one thing, paying someone to dance at their party is a bit weird, even for only 8 bucks.

Hi, yes I'd agree that asking a professional to pay to perform/work at your event would be very bad form. However this is not the case in this situation. In many of these community events most of the audience is made up of performers and the organisers are sometimes unable to cover costs without asking for a contribution from performers.

I have really mixed feelings about it though. I think performers should at least get a reduced rate. My Studio has student recitals with free entry for performers BUT we keep our venue/staging costs down and so far the students have always brought along enough non-performing friends and family for us to cover the cost of the venue and provide snacks.

I'd just find out from your students why they don't seem interested, it could be any number of reasons. Then you'll have a better idea of the type of events they *would* be interested in and it will be easier for you to assess each event when your group is invited to perform.

For this event, just let the organiser know as soon as you can that your group is not available. You are not oligated to give her any reasons but based on why your students don't want to perform you might like to let her know whether they'd be interested in future performance opportunities or if she should just send info in case they want to go along to watch.

Originally Posted by JShane

wait, they are performing and still being charged to attend? Personally, I'd have a problem with that. Like someone hiring me to photograph a party and then telling me I have to buy a ticket to the party. Dancing for free is one thing, paying someone to dance at their party is a bit weird, even for only 8 bucks.

At most of these events, the students dance for 5 minutes and aren't required to be pros. (although pros often choose to dance there, too).

They then enjoy the event for the entire rest of the evening and eat all they want from the buffet.

It's not like a show where you're the pro performer, you spend your time backstage (or in the bathroom or closet that serves as your changing room...) and have no seat in the house, and you don't get to enjoy any of the food or drinks provided to the guest.

The performers at these events are also the guests. It's more like a meeting of a photography club, where you're welcome to take pics if you want but you still have to pay for the food and hall rental.

The more shows I put on, the less I feel the outrage of being asked to "pay to dance".
In general, I would never ask anyone to pay to dance, but if you want to have a show, you generally have to pay for it.

I would never ask a guest dancer to pay, though. Only my troupe, and I have never done that, but I reserve the right.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

At most of these events, the students dance for 5 minutes and aren't required to be pros. (although pros often choose to dance there, too).

They then enjoy the event for the entire rest of the evening and eat all they want from the buffet.

It's not like a show where you're the pro performer, you spend your time backstage (or in the bathroom or closet that serves as your changing room...) and have no seat in the house, and you don't get to enjoy any of the food or drinks provided to the guest.

The performers at these events are also the guests. It's more like a meeting of a photography club, where you're welcome to take pics if you want but you still have to pay for the food and hall rental.

I guess I could see in a club situation if people got together and split the cost of something like that.

But if someone was hosting something that wasn't very workshop based where I was "taking lessons". I would not pay to take pictures.

And I sort of get what some of you all are talking about. But around here, most of the people that perform, don't have to pay for the event because they are contributing to what the audience is paying for. Maybe in areas where there is a lot more bellydance and these events are in more demand, I could see people "fighting" to be part of a show that would be big.

Taj: I decided that it might be me asking for the cash up front. I also decided I wasn't comfortable with that. So I dropped that part of it.

StraightLeftKnee: I now have a lady 'standing in' for me. She is friendly and the students can meet her before the show.

Kharis: Excellent advice. I became more relaxed about the whole thing, as if some of them go - great, if some don't want to, then fine. They became more interested !

JShane: It is not a professional show, 75% of the audience will also be dancers, 25% husbands/friends etc. If no-body paid 'to perform' - no show ! Unless some benefactor appeared from some where to pay for everything. But I imagine they would have better things to do with their money :-) Pro dancers often turn up to these things for their own reasons, they want to try something new out, they want to dance something technically complex for an audience who 'gets it'. generally they understand it's not a paying gig - instead it's a student recital.

I can see why you would not pay to take pictures. You are a professional, that is your living. It would be absurd. But if you turned up at the photography club, where they were all splitting the cost of the room, would you demand a fee? It would be kind of like that here...

Lauren: I did feel obligated to the organiser. But you are right, in that my first priority has to be to the students. Part of the problem is that the organiser asked me so far in advance, I said a provsional yes (pending asking the students as term had not started). Then I felt like I'd be backing out on something that had been arranged for ages. Thankfully it's not an issue any more, as I came to terms with the fact that students may choose not to perform. I have told them - "do it, if you think it will be fun, if it's not fun, then don't do it!" Its their first performance, and I think if they are dreading it, or if its anything other than 'fun' they should not do it.

For some unknown reason a large number of them are a lot more keen now. Odd, but I don't want to poke at it if it's working !!!

Originally Posted by JShane

wait, they are performing and still being charged to attend? Personally, I'd have a problem with that. Like someone hiring me to photograph a party and then telling me I have to buy a ticket to the party. Dancing for free is one thing, paying someone to dance at their party is a bit weird, even for only 8 bucks.

I have more and more of a problem with this too. Yes, I do get to watch the rest of the show but believe it or not, some people do come specifically to see me dance too, so I am "paying for myself" so to speak. I can see both sides of the issue but I seem to be siding more and more with not having to pay.

Originally Posted by Fotia

I have more and more of a problem with this too. Yes, I do get to watch the rest of the show but believe it or not, some people do come specifically to see me dance too, so I am "paying for myself" so to speak. I can see both sides of the issue but I seem to be siding more and more with not having to pay.

Well just don't go then. If you feel strongly about it, you can always arrange your own hafla with your rules.

Originally Posted by Asteria

Taj: I decided that it might be me asking for the cash up front. I also decided I wasn't comfortable with that. So I dropped that part of it.

StraightLeftKnee: I now have a lady 'standing in' for me. She is friendly and the students can meet her before the show.

Kharis: Excellent advice. I became more relaxed about the whole thing, as if some of them go - great, if some don't want to, then fine. They became more interested !

JShane: It is not a professional show, 75% of the audience will also be dancers, 25% husbands/friends etc. If no-body paid 'to perform' - no show ! Unless some benefactor appeared from some where to pay for everything. But I imagine they would have better things to do with their money :-) Pro dancers often turn up to these things for their own reasons, they want to try something new out, they want to dance something technically complex for an audience who 'gets it'. generally they understand it's not a paying gig - instead it's a student recital.

I can see why you would not pay to take pictures. You are a professional, that is your living. It would be absurd. But if you turned up at the photography club, where they were all splitting the cost of the room, would you demand a fee? It would be kind of like that here...

Yea, I could get with the idea of feeling like I was pitching in for the cost of the room/food/etc. If it was truly laid out and said...this is the cost, and it will be split depending on who shows. But if you are just charging a flat fee and a bunch of people show up, then who is making money?

Like you said though, sounds like the show was more like a group get together than a show. I know when my gf has haflas she usually does something in trade at a place where she normally performs or has a working relationship with to get a couple room rentals and then does a pot luck for people to bring food if it's a small student only show like that.

And some I've seen are a mix between a show and the student hafla where it's half students and family and dancers and half paying. I guess it just depends on the type of event.

As someone who runs lots of events and haflas - it's a common misconception that the hafla organiser is "making money" and this is "bad". The thing is, when money is made, if you were to divide it down and work out an hourly rate. It wouldn't even meet minimum wage. Also, the money can be used to offset things like workshops put on in the day or the last hafla that made a loss. I personally wouldn't ever feel the need to open my books up to scrutiny.

I wish that people who didn't want to come to haflas just didn't come. Nothing worse than going *and* complaining about it. It just brings everyone down and makes the organiser less likely to continue with any events.

If dancers think they are of a far superior standard to most hafla go-ing paying "guests/performers" then they won't attend. Here in the UK, haflas are usually non-professional getting together to platform each other.
We've always used them as fund-raising events:either to arise money to get a band and have sonething to pay an established or up and coming dancer or for a charity. I started the idea of performers paying less than non-dancers but this time as it's a charity event , we have also gone for a non-food/food option and 4 ticket rates would be too much of a complication. This is just to back up what Caroline says: here in the UK to make any money an organiser would have to charge a high ticket price and would be expected to provide not just a performance platform. Mostly we are covering costs/raising money/providing a platform and bellydance shopping opportunity.
As far as photographer/ videographer/ stall holders I don't expect them to pay a penny and I will feed them as well.
But back to the OP, it's good to support other organisers but no one can ensure that their students feel this is important and with new students they sometimes just want to watch not perform ( I know I did). There shouldn't be rivalry between halfa organisers in fact co-operation is so important..spreading the events through the calender , having a variety fo type of events, a different experience for dancers and guests alike.
My upcoming hafla is actually a joint event with another teacher from the next big town and not only are we hoping to raise money for our chosen charity but it's a real chance for two communities to get together. We also have dancers coming from further afield.

what if you say something like" the performer gets in free if they bring 3 guest" or what ever number.

Originally Posted by toria_dances

what if you say something like" the performer gets in free if they bring 3 guest" or what ever number.

That's a good idea.

As one of the hafla arrangers in Lauren's area, I can assure you this is not a money making venture! I made $75 once - at all other haflas I have lost money. When I go to another studio's hafla, I don't have a problem buying a ticket. I know that they are making very little (if any) profit, and if you average the profit over hours spent the hourly return is squat. If someone attends their own studio's event, I can see paying at the event to help cover costs but then receiving a free class in trade.

I guess it's different everywhere, but here haflas tend to be fairly low-key events that showcase students. They're just venues for folks from different studios to socialize and for students to get a chance to perform.

I have attended + performed at haflas where the coordinator paid for the venue herself and therefore charges performers a modest entrance fee. After all it is only fair she recoup what she paid, she is paying and providing an opportunity and space to dance. Coordinating events also takes time and effort. Without our hafla coordinators who are willing to go though all this hoopla, (by choice I may point out since they don't have to do it) many of us would not have anywhere to dance so a few dollars in exchange for the opportunity and the space isn't an issue for me. I dont attend haflas and events where I feel dancers are charged unfairly or charged when they should not be.

Originally Posted by blueyeddancer

I have attended + performed at haflas where the coordinator paid for the venue herself and therefore charges performers a modest entrance fee. After all it is only fair she recoup what she paid, she is paying and providing an opportunity and space to dance. Coordinating events also takes time and effort. Without our hafla coordinators who are willing to go though all this hoopla, (by choice I may point out since they don't have to do it) many of us would not have anywhere to dance so a few dollars in exchange for the opportunity and the space isn't an issue for me. I dont attend haflas and events where I feel dancers are charged unfairly or charged when they should not be.

See, that I could understand if we are talking about making enough to break even. But if you are putting on a true show for profit, you charge the audience, not the dancers. But then, usually the dancers aren't students.

(And this isn't a reply to this post I quoted, but wanted to add to those that see me posting on stuff like this thread: My gf puts together a lot of these, so I have an idea of what cost goes into it, since it comes out of our money. And the money that can be made from it. I've also worked with a lot of teachers putting together events of several different levels and with people doing other types of events out there.) So I think the biggest thing about this idea is that it depends on what type of event it is you are putting together in the end, because there are so many variations.

In the end I just think you shouldn't be making a profit if you are charging your performers. Once you start getting into profit territory you should be able to stick to only charging audience members.

JShane..in most of these events the audience is the dancers!
We give each other a platform.

Originally Posted by JShane

In the end I just think you shouldn't be making a profit if you are charging your performers. Once you start getting into profit territory you should be able to stick to only charging audience members.

OK, in this scenario, when you don't charge people when you make a profit (kind of like sharing out the profit). What do you do when you make a loss ? Because in my area, breaking even or making a small loss are the more normal scenarios.

Years ago a dancer decided to sponsor Haflas in order to generate seed-money to finance sponsoring weekend workshops. After losing money on her first three Haflas in one year she was so frustrated she lost her spark for MED. She dropped out for over 5 years. She now takes a class or two each month. She didn't realize how risky and time-consuming a Hafla could be. Renting the hall, sound system, lights, tables and chairs, backdrop, stage, etc - she was shocked by the never-ending expenses.

Originally Posted by showtime

Years ago a dancer decided to sponsor Haflas in order to generate seed-money to finance sponsoring weekend workshops. After losing money on her first three Haflas in one year she was so frustrated she lost her spark for MED. She dropped out for over 5 years. She now takes a class or two each month. She didn't realize how risky and time-consuming a Hafla could be. Renting the hall, sound system, lights, tables and chairs, backdrop, stage, etc - she was shocked by the never-ending expenses.

She could have either increased her ticket price to reflect her costs and let the market decide. Or she could have scaled down her operation, and used a church hall or something. Though really, I hate using church halls. I'd rather either do it really well, or not at all.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

JShane..in most of these events the audience is the dancers!
We give each other a platform.

Like I've also said in my posts...

the events vary
Ladies...I've been to probably as many or more of these types of events than most of the dancers that post here

and I've seen some where...

yes, most of the audience are the dancers or just them and their family (and most of those cases it is put together in a smaller manner and done at the studio or somewhere for trade when I've seen it so there isn't much of a cost at all)

I've seen a mix where the dancers/performers get in for free and they charge the people that attend and it's a mix of seasoned and beginning dancers and a small profit is made after paying off the room rental and other expenses.

And I've seen full blown shows where dancers are paid to perform.

In the end, it is MY OPINION that if your event is going to turn a profit, then the people that are WORKING at the event, should not be paying to go to it, because without them, you would have nothing to charge for to begin with

If it is just a small scale students, family and friends thing for a dancer to get used to performing in front of people, I have seen tons of those thrown for very little cost, even no cost.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

OK, in this scenario, when you don't charge people when you make a profit (kind of like sharing out the profit). What do you do when you make a loss ? Because in my area, breaking even or making a small loss are the more normal scenarios.

Like I've said, it depends on the type of event exactly. I've seen so much variety in these things It's impossible to make one bulk call on what to do.

What's the cost? What's the profit? What's the loss? All those will vary from event to event and person to person and area to area.

Are you doing it to make money? Are you doing it to get more exposure and your name out there? (If so, a small loss may be worth it) Do you want a lot of people performing? Do you want a certain skill level? etc.

My gf and I spent no money on the last hafla we put together. She danced for someone's BDay for free that has the room we like to use and got a trade to use the room a few times. Did a pot luck for deserts and I guess that was the true "cost" for anyone to come. And the place where the hafla was held even advertised it at there place so there were more than just students, family and friends at it.

But like I said, I've seen it done differently every time. Even we have done it differently at other times depending on what we wanted to get out of it.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

Well just don't go then. If you feel strongly about it, you can always arrange your own hafla with your rules.

Well, thank you. And if all the dancers did this, there wouldn't be any event at all.