Thread: Why don't more dancers post video on their websites?

I'm sorry if this already been discussed in this forum. I've had this account for a long time, but I only actually started using bhuz very recently. I will not be offended if you point me to an older thread on the topic :)

I've been wondering why most websites of professional belly dancers that I encounter do not include a video (or a gallery of videos). I think most dancers wouldn't dream of having a website without any pictures for the customer to know what the dancer they are hiring looks like... so wouldn't it also make sense to let the person have an idea of what your dancing looks like, too?

I'm not trying to criticize, by the way. I am asking because I honestly can't think of reasons not to post at least one video, because if I were to hire a belly dancer, my most important consideration would be her dance and not the way she looks on pictures.

There are haters out there. There are people who tear others apart for fun or out of spite. Many dancers have videos (promotional or otherwise) that they email to perspective clients.

I post videos I like to my youtube but not to my site because most of my videos do not reflect the dance that I will perform in a gig setting.

Also many people demand perfection and they feel on video that they have yet to achieve it.

I don't have much video of myself dancing and what I do have is old, not reflecting who I am as a dancer now, or is very poor quality. Most performance settings do not make for good video settings. Usually people who hire me have seen me perform in a restaurant or have been referred by someone else who has seen me. It's something I certainly want to add to my site, though. More pics, too.

Could be the level of quality of the video. Throwing up a homemade or even semi-pro done video on youtube or in a blog I don't think people worry too much about it. But if they are going to have something presented on their website, perhaps they want it to look as polished as photography or their performance?

I've seen a lot of vids that are cool to watch for the fun of it, but couldn't image them as a presentation piece.

Ditto. Some don't have videos or professional looking videos. I used to think it was because they weren't very good dancers. But some phenomenal dancers don't bother putting vids up either.

I have some on mine, but most of the footage is very crappy and unprofessional. The few times I've performed at an event where we got good footage, i felt like I didn't dance well. *sigh*

Most of the footage is of stage shows, though, and most people hiring me are looking for a party setting. They can't watch my gooey Um Kalthoum onstage and see me spicing up Uncle Joe's retirement party.

I'm cutting deals with clients now -- discounts in exchange for the right to videotape/broadcast my performance from their event. Still won't be pro footage, but at least it might look like FUN!

It's actually really hard to put together "mainstream" quality footage of the average, even above-average, dancer. Most stage shows aren't done under that awesome a set of conditions, to be honest. Because it's rare for us to have access to pro-quality video, in comparison to what many people "expect", we don't always have video that meets that expectation -- and that impacts when trying to sell ourselves to clients.

There's also a point about music rights that has caught up dancers who've uploaded to Youtube in the past.

Slightly Technical Note: This is about more than online video quality. In my (admittedly limited) experience, you're better to get video out than anything; we dancers want to see each other, and it's a good promotional tool in the community. But for clients, it actually seems to be better to wait to do something pro level, and then downgrade for YouTube, than to put up a poorly-videographed-and-lighted video. Go figure.

Here are a couple more reasons:

(The obvious one) If you're not very good, you don't want your potential customers or students to know that before they've handed you the check. Spend any time on the Internet and you'll find plenty of dancers who hype themselves like they're the second coming, but can't live up to their own PR. It's a little embarrassing to be going on about how you've studied with Mahmoud Reda when you took one 150-person workshop with him eight years ago, and your dancing shows that all you can remember is that his choreography had an arabesque in it.

(On the other hand) If you're good, you worry about other dancers stealing your choreographies--either because you aren't respected as an artist and credited for your hard work and expertise, or because it cuts into your revenue as a workshop teacher. Thanks, YouTube! Now I don't have to think up my own dances OR pay someone to teach a choreography to me!

(And finally...) Unrequited love is a terrible thing. So is having some weirdo google "belly dance video" when what he really wants is "free porn."

Everybody always busts my chops about my lack of video footage. Glad to see I'm not the only one who doesn't have a video.

I agree with what Tanya mentioned upthread - videos generally don't do a justice to what a show is really like. A camera can pick up on the visuals, but not on the ever-so-precious "intangibles." And the one area where I garner the most praise is my stage presence and my ability to engage an audience. So until I get a clip that displays the energy I bring to my shows, I'm more than happy to have a million photos (on my gallery and now on Flickr), testimonials and other proof that I'm "worthy." If a client asks, I'll happily e-mail them video footage.

Not to mention, what Asim said. My photos are super slick. My video clips, OTOH, always tend to be shaky, dimly lit, reminiscent of the Blair Witch Project. Until I can get video footage that's as aesthetically appealing as my still shots, I'm not exactly in a rush to plaster subpar video clips all over my website.

Besides getting gigs, I feel it's important for me to have video clips on my site so prospective students can get a feel for the style I do. I have some clips on my student troupe up there for the same reason. One of the things I try to make clear though the video clips I've selected is that I focus on dancing to ME music, so that if someone's looking for a more fusion-y approach they'll maybe decide to go elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Asim

Slightly Technical Note: This is about more than online video quality. In my (admittedly limited) experience, you're better to get video out than anything; we dancers want to see each other, and it's a good promotional tool in the community. But for clients, it actually seems to be better to wait to do something pro level, and then downgrade for YouTube, than to put up a poorly-videographed-and-lighted video. Go figure.

Maybe you're onto something here. For me, even a poorly recorded and poorly lit video of a great dancer is a masterpiece. I don't need to see something top-notch to get the point. I would naturally assume everyone else feels the same way, but maybe the GP would be put-off by a poor-quality video on a professional website.

That could be the case, but I'd still have a hard time seeing the logic here, from the client's perspective. Maybe certain clients are really looking for an image that is 100% top-notch, but I would think that most people would be suspicious of hiring a dancer whom they have never seen in action? Although I suppose when you get most of your clients from past gigs or referrals, that's not a problem... now I'm just rambling.

Great answers so far, keep 'em coming!

I have very few and I think they're all horrible.

Referals go a long way, but many clients hire dancers they see in clubs and restaurant venues.

I'm a big believer in a promo video (if you can afford one) or at least snippets of dancing you can stand behind, but I don't include them on my website.

Additionally when you perform more then one style, I can do Beladi and Assaya for an Egyptian audience and silk veils and sword for an American. I can lead a debke line and also dance Zeffa with a Shamadan. The only video's I've seen that include a variety of clips seamlessly are those by Amy Staub.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

That could be the case, but I'd still have a hard time seeing the logic here, from the client's perspective. Maybe certain clients are really looking for an image that is 100% top-notch, but I would think that most people would be suspicious of hiring a dancer whom they have never seen in action? Although I suppose when you get most of your clients from past gigs or referrals, that's not a problem... now I'm just rambling.

I find that most clients are sufficiently impressed by how I treat them, the way I look in photos, and how I come across on my website. Not having a readily accessible video clip has never posed any challenges that I'm aware of. If a client really wants to see footage, they'll ask me for it. But I get tons of new business (not referrals) without a clip.

Then again, every dancer is completely different. What works for me might not work for somebody whose target market consists of dancers. I just don't have any video footage that truly reflects what it's like to see one of my shows.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

That could be the case, but I'd still have a hard time seeing the logic here, from the client's perspective. Maybe certain clients are really looking for an image that is 100% top-notch, but I would think that most people would be suspicious of hiring a dancer whom they have never seen in action? Although I suppose when you get most of your clients from past gigs or referrals, that's not a problem... now I'm just rambling.

Considering how much of a problem it is for legitimate dancers to have to compete with unqualified amateurs for gigs, I think it demonstrates just how uninformed, gullible, and/or cheap the GP is when it comes to hiring dancers. We often complain that audiences wouldn't know good dancing if it bit them, so why else does Suzy Nippletassels keep getting gigs? If you're not dealing with an audience who knows better, then you really don't have to be very good to impress them, and if you're inexpensive enough, they'll probably hire you anyway.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Considering how much of a problem it is for legitimate dancers to have to compete with unqualified amateurs for gigs, I think it demonstrates just how uninformed, gullible, and/or cheap the GP is when it comes to hiring dancers. We often complain that audiences wouldn't know good dancing if it bit them, so why else does Suzy Nippletassels keep getting gigs? If you're not dealing with an audience who knows better, then you really don't have to be very good to impress them, and if you're inexpensive enough, they'll probably hire you anyway.

Maybe the GP already takes for granted that if you have a website and pretty pictures, if you're already out there on the market as a "pro belly dancer" then you must be a professional bellydancer and that's all there is to it?
Maybe I'd be suspicious of hiring someone I've never seen dance before because I know good belly dance from bad belly dance, I've seen bad dancers out there performing "professionally" so I know I can't take a dancer's word at face value. For the GP, it's a different story.

i have a link on my home page that goes to all my youtube.i always tell a client to go watch to see what we do, ....and what we dont do.here, they are also concerned about costuming, but ethnic people are.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

Maybe you're onto something here. For me, even a poorly recorded and poorly lit video of a great dancer is a masterpiece. I don't need to see something top-notch to get the point. I would naturally assume everyone else feels the same way, but maybe the GP would be put-off by a poor-quality video on a professional website.

That could be the case, but I'd still have a hard time seeing the logic here, from the client's perspective. Maybe certain clients are really looking for an image that is 100% top-notch, but I would think that most people would be suspicious of hiring a dancer whom they have never seen in action? Although I suppose when you get most of your clients from past gigs or referrals, that's not a problem... now I'm just rambling.

Great answers so far, keep 'em coming!

Well, like satin said, I know my gf is awesome where it comes to interacting and working the crowd, which is hard to see on video. I know though, that she invites them to restaurants to watch her perform if they are considering her for a party or another restaurant talking to her; that way they can see her live. That seems to work out the best.

And what Asim said about putting together something of quality being hard. Aside from just the pro level being hard to attain, the lighting is a harder issue than people realize. All the lighting that looks normal on a video is blindingly bright in person sometimes, unless you have daylight to help. Those flashes that go off to light a scene for a still shot, have to be on that bright full time when shooting a good quality video and that just isn't possible if you are shooting an actual performance at a gig usually.

Originally Posted by JShane

And what Asim said about putting together something of quality being hard. Aside from just the pro level being hard to attain, the lighting is a harder issue than people realize. All the lighting that looks normal on a video is blindingly bright in person sometimes, unless you have daylight to help. Those flashes that go off to light a scene for a still shot, have to be on that bright full time when shooting a good quality video and that just isn't possible if you are shooting an actual performance at a gig usually.

Yes, and it doesn't help that we're usually performing in dark, dingy, sometimes smoky places. Plus, unless you have a tripod, it's hard to avoid things getting shaky. Nothing's worse than a video clip where you can hardly see the dancer's facial expression or more intricate movements because it's too dark and that bumbling waiter keeps getting in the way. I personally don't see how this is effective advertising.

I don't put fuzzy, poorly lit, amateurish candid photos on my site. I have a lot of them, but I think it's far more effective to only post the sharp-looking ones. For the same reason, I don't want to put any crappy footage on my site just for the sake of having a video. If clients want to see footage, they'll ask me for it and I'll gladly send it.

I will be in a professionally shot music video soon, so if that comes out nice, I'll be more than happy to put that up for all the world to see! ..g.:

all of my performance clips are from shows.i just can not do anything in front of a camera but teach.but i also prefer photos not staged in a studio.i have a problem with some who present themselves only through photoshop.....does every town have a photoshop queen?...(can you alter video..hmm.dont think so, come to think of it.thats why tape is used in court and film isnt).i feel seeing a dancer in the same situation you might be hireing them for is usefull.dont yell at me, thats just me. i once sat and listened to a dancer vent over her treatment at a gig.....but her photos are worked on.i just could not show up and have them say, "who are you?".so, i do not care for staged video in this art.to me, it just isnt the same. how do you klnow how the dancer will react in your living room...you have only seen her on a stage, with lighting. it is to "thought about".ok, shutting up now, ....lol

Don't shut up, Cory!

PhotoShop isn't the devil in moderation. Most photographers just use it to tweak color, contrast, lighting and sharpen the bling on our costumes. At least that's what my boyfriend does to my photos. I would have to agree on the scarier uses of PS, though!

For the same reason, I also find it off-putting when dancers only use photos of themselves that were taken 10-20 years ago .w.:. That might be even worse than a gratuitous PhotoShop trainwreck.

A lot of people don't know how to place videos on their own websites; yet wanting a professional appearing website, they'll stay away from YouTube. Its easy enough, but "you" still need to climb a learning curve.

I have great footage of me doing shamadan.Its just what I'd love to put on my website. It captures the moment, the atmosphere the crowd everything EXCEPT I look huge and not how I want to show myself to people who I feel would not get past my weight. over the last 3 years I've been loosing weight steadily. I put loads of weight on because I was given the wrong medication-I'm off it now and my weight is returning to normal. I hope one day to have an equally good video of me dancing looking how I want to look. In fact getting a video of me dancing that I'm pleased with is my dance goal for 2010.

Originally Posted by JShane

And what Asim said about putting together something of quality being hard. Aside from just the pro level being hard to attain, the lighting is a harder issue than people realize. All the lighting that looks normal on a video is blindingly bright in person sometimes, unless you have daylight to help. Those flashes that go off to light a scene for a still shot, have to be on that bright full time when shooting a good quality video and that just isn't possible if you are shooting an actual performance at a gig usually.

oh, yes! this is a huge issue! our poor videographer for our shows works so hard to adjust everything he can in the keepsake vids, but because the lighting for our big shows is planned according to what will look good that night in the theater, video plays second fiddle and has to deal with lighting that is not ideal for video. restaurants, homes, even studio performances are generally not where I want publicity videos taken either- fine for showing friends or getting your dance critiqued, but not helpful in playing up the glam- yes, that was phenomenal dancing, but Nico is doing that weird waving thing behind your head, or a waiter just dropped something on the floor next to you, etc, etc, etc.

Also- what to choose? I perform a range of styles with a range of costuming options- what do I record & post? it's easy put up several pictures to show this, but how many potential clients are going to look through 10 videos to see what style they want, or know if I'm conservative enough to dance for gran's birthday party? first clip they see is what they will expect.

& bottom line, when all my gigs are local, word of mouth works better than anything I put on my website anyway. I have a website because it is now expected that a professional anything will have a website, but a good vid I would be satisfied with would cost way more than it ever would bring in profit wise. Yes, I need to get some clips together to put on disk for the one or two people who occasionally ask, but I don't need to tell the whole world, I need to tell my potential clients, and usually that means Aunt Lucy saw me dance and she is sure I would be great for the next family event.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

.. The only video's I've seen that include a variety of clips seamlessly are those by Amy Staub.

Amy does a wonderful job!

Originally Posted by zamora

..but i also prefer photos not staged in a studio.i have a problem with some who present themselves only through photoshop.....does every town have a photoshop queen?...(can you alter video..hmm.dont think so,....

I have both live and studio photos. I don't believe in photo shopping for altering looks or age though. I want people to know what to expect.
A few weeks ago I met with a comedian from LA who was hiring me. I walked into the coffee shop and the first thing he said was "Wow, you look just like your photos!". "Aren't I supposed to?". "Most people don't." he laughed.
...and there IS "photoshop" for video. I have a friend who used to work on JLo videos.
I have a lot of footage. Raw footage usually does not present the best for this sort of thing...I'm gonna plug Amy Staub again. It's important for someone editing dance footage to understand the dance and to have a well developed sense of musicality.

Interesting points of view. I never thought of holding video footage up to the same standards as one would professional photos, exactly because it's so much harder and more expensive to make a quality video, and also because I'm so used to seeing poor-quality videos that the quality doesn't matter at all to me.

I know video never captures the true energy and presence of a live dancer, and a lot of nuance and detail gets lost. But to me, it's wonderful to see a talented dancer even if the video is dark or a little shaky.

I also think these amateur videos of live performances actually capture the vibe better than a lot of professional videos with proper lighting would. You see the reactions of the audience, you see what you would see if you were there (or the closest you can to it, without actually being there). The dancer didn't hire someone to record her. Someone in the audience thought what they were seeing was interesting enough for them to take out their camera and record the moment.

Whenever I see a performance, say, at the end of an instructional belly dance DVD (and I'm not talking stage performance here, but the ones where you can actually see the audience surrounding the dancer, watching), it always feels so fake. Like maybe many takes were attempted and the person editing chose the best ones. Or maybe because the audience there knows they're being recorded so their reactions are more controlled. Even if it's not, the dance seems too rehearsed in this circumstance.

oh yeah! before photoshop, the OLD pic kept up forever!!!!!!

i agree that the quality of video doesn't have to be perfect in order to be effective. Most of us can't exactly afford MGM quality; however, our product is our dancing. Wouldn't it make sense to show people what we have to offer? Photos show what we look like and how glamorous we are. Videos show that not only are we glamorous, but we have tremendous talent and skill to boot.

Of course, I'm not a member of the GP and I'm not really seeking professional gigs since it doesn't match my goals at this time so maybe I'm out of touch!

I'd love to post my videos on my website, or at least do a demo clip, but I can't figure out technical issues on my PC - argghhhhh, technology foils me again!

Originally Posted by phillyraqs

I'd love to post my videos on my website, or at least do a demo clip, but I can't figure out technical issues on my PC - argghhhhh, technology foils me again!

Ha! Yeah, this will be a stumbling block whenever I end up getting good footage to put on my site. I'm sure I'll go crying to my web guy!

'Til then, can you put up a temporary YouTube channel and direct your clients to it if they ask?