Thread: Undercutting continues

They opened a new 'middle eastern' restaurant in my area around July...I didn't find out until maybe a month or so... just so you know, I’m not crazy about restaurant work (mainly because I cannot commit)…but I decided to still give the owner my card anyways...I was told they were already in contact with another dancer and that they really wanted to have bellydancers. I know all the dancers in my area, so I asked who that was and it happened to be one of my good bellysisters. “Great! I know her, she a friend” – I told them and left it at that, as I respect and know the etiquette of the trade and would never step over another dancer’s toes….

Well, that same night I got an email from the my friend that was the contact telling me all about it and asking about my opinion on what to charge…etc …she was going to have a meeting to negotiate pricing, and all… I emailed her back and offer to help with scheduling dancers and/or dancing when needed as she is not able to commit to dance on a set schedule either and she liked the idea of me been part of it as she planned to schedule other dancers too… So, a week after, during a group meeting (we are all part of a ‘bellydance association’), I asked her how the negotiating went and she told me that things were ‘a little in the air’ and the owner hasn’t returned her last call (they didn’t get to have an actual meeting)…then I noticed she asked one of the other ‘dancer’/friend.. about ‘what her students said’...”They are fine, they didn’t even know there was money involved” the other one said… “Oh, are you having students dance there too? Not sure that’s the place for students to perform, that’s what haflas are for” I told them and she kind of changed the conversation…so I left it at that again…...c::

continued....



THEN next day I come to find out what was really going on….My friend gave me a call and told me that apparently these two students (students from the other dancer) had gone to the restaurant and told to owner they were ‘bellydancers’ and that they would do it for FREE!!!! GOT SOME BALLS AND NO FREAKING CLUE??!!! Worst thing is that their “teacher”, who doesn’t perform nor does any paid gigs, was the one who encourage them to do it as they “need more performance experience”…and had the huge balls to tell the other one to let her know what we decided to charge so she could tell her students to charge the same!!!!! YIKES!!!!!!!!!!,m::,m::

I am so upset and so is my friend…not only because they totally stepped over our toes but because it shows the lack of knowledge about etiquette and undercutting…and how their behavior contributes to devaluing our art form!
This other dancer is a really nice person, and we think she might truly have no clue as she is an older dancer and has hardly ever perform at this kind of venues or paid gigs (the kind that just do it for fun and decides teaching in their town because there is nobody else maybe??)...We just don’t know how to approach the situation and tell her that she should have known better and not encourage her students to do this…it is not acceptable! And it is a good time to educate those who called themselves ‘teachers’ or ‘professional bellydancers’ around here!

Advice please?!!

Let it go, they'll perform once or twice and get shown the door. Bad dancers don't last long, especially in family friendly locations.

You can talk (nicely) to the teacher in question and let her know that her actions are damaging to the community at large. If you (or your friends) organize events please let her know that you will not be including her moving forward unless she agrees to talk to her students about professional rates and decorum.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

Let it go, they'll perform once or twice and get shown the door. Bad dancers don't last long, especially in family friendly locations.

You can talk (nicely) to the teacher in question and let her know that her actions are damaging to the community at large. If you (or your friends) organize events please let her know that you will not be including her moving forward unless she agrees to talk to her students about professional rates and decorum.

My theory is that people who aren't being paid don't have a commitment. When the novelty wears off and they have something better to do with their Friday nights, what reason do they have for showing up someplace where they don't HAVE to be? I see unpaid dancers flaking out in a fairly short amount of time...

Yes gals...true, their dancing will speak for them ..g.:

We don't know yet what's going to happen... as of right now there hasn't been any decisions made by the owner ..c::

Oops / Sorry :-/

I totally agree w/Tanya & TH-TX that the newbie Suzy-Nippletassels' dance quality (or rather, non-quality) will be their own undoing (it's kind of not their fault that their blazing ignorance is being fueled by false guidance), however, I really think you need to tell their teacher to "Knock It OFF" regarding her encouragement of such terrible protocol! .p::

Are these folks following Morocco's famous article as a script of some kind? Send the teacher this link and tell her to scroll down to 'Dancer number two's story.'
Welcome to Morocco's Meanderings

If its the one undercutter in our area. She been playing dirty pool for years.(I don't agree with it but hey its not my karma to worry about) I'm not the only dancer she done it to. Her rates are too low for the area anyhow.
Sahari ,I pmed you the name who personally did it to me in August. because its not right to mention it in public.
I am not sure if its the same gal. I hope it isn't.


Alrana

Thanks Maurazebra for that great link!!!

Anyone else can tell me where to find good articles about undercutting/protocol/Etc.? I think it will be a good way to direct her to valuable information every bellydancer should know

And no Alrana....this is for sure not the same dancer...they are students of a fellow teacher in my immediate area... I think ALL bellydancers in CT know about the one you are referring to

Like Morocco, I, too "refuse to understand or forgive" teachers who pull this kind of cr*p.

Deborah

*so, Deborah, tell us how you really feel about this*

I feel for you! "dancers" here do gigs for $50 and then say things like "Any dancer who charges more is full of herself". Crazy.
I would send all your info (you and your dancer friend), promo stuff, wesite, even some performance footage. I would include in the letter that you would be pleased to talk about "professional bellydancers" performing now or in the future. Make it very friendly. After the NT girls prove unworthy maybe it will keep the door open for later.

Originally Posted by Sahari

Thanks Maurazebra for that great link!!!

Anyone else can tell me where to find good articles about undercutting/protocol/Etc.? I think it will be a good way to direct her to valuable information every bellydancer should know

And no Alrana....this is for sure not the same dancer...they are students of a fellow teacher in my immediate area... I think ALL bellydancers in CT know about the one you are referring to

What a relief it wasn't her. Aunt Rocky is always wise in advice.

Alrana

Originally Posted by Sahari

Thanks Maurazebra for that great link!!!

Anyone else can tell me where to find good articles about undercutting/protocol/Etc.? I think it will be a good way to direct her to valuable information every bellydancer should know

I was waiting for Samira to respond to this, but since she hasn't: samirashuruk bellydance links, look at the Professionalism and Ethics links at the top. They go a couple of pages deep, keep clicking until you find what you like.

ugh how frustrating! I would be so mad; it doesn't matter if they perform once or for years on end, I can't help but feel some audience members will watch them--it might be their first and possibly only contact with BD--and think *that* is what all BDers are like. It certainly doesn't do our artform any favors. I'd definitely approach the dancer and let her know that what she's doing isn't right.

Sahari, I would think this would be a great topic for the association that you all belong to. The association could be a great resource for dancers wanting to know how to become professionals and perform. Is there some way you can approach her through the association, without offending her too much? Maybe talk to her privately, just very nice and low-key over tea. Then let the association know about the concern without necessarily naming names and have it discussed?

Thanks everyone for your inputs!

My friend is working on a "proposal' for the owner...and I'm going to be sending the other dancer a friendly email and invite for coffee to discuss some of these points and direct her to these great articles/links...I'm actually working on developing some kind of pamphlet with Satin (where are you girl?? he he...) that focus of some important point such as etiquette/protocol/undercutting and professionalism part of bellydance …

Hopefully we have a positive outcome!! Will keep you posted on what happens

Check your e-mail, woman!

It is disturbing to really think what's going on out there. (Wanna really get scared? Check out the "quick quote" tab on Gigmasters to see what people are charging - $150 for weddings and corporate events? Gimme a break, people!). That's why I'm kinda living in my own little belly dance world, at this point. If I pay too much attention to the few undercutters in our neighborhood, I start to get angsty, which just makes me resent the dance and look bad in the long run. Get good and p*ssed (and feel free to call me any time you need to vent!) - but at the end of the day, our love of the dance should take prime real estate in our brains.

But once again, I think public presentation is really how we separate the wheat from the chaff. Most dancers in our area are classy, professional and talented. But if we all kept asking ourselves how we can do things better and upgrade our own business practices, I think the result could be monumental. There are no hard and fast rules here, but every day, we should all strive to be our personal best. Customer service is an awesome place for each one of us to start. And my experience shows that if you develop your own niche, you can make most price objections obsolete. People might not have huge entertainment budgets anymore, but I don't think it's as bad as most of us might believe. If a prospect is given a choice between you and your beautiful costumes and soulful dance style, vs. Nancy No-Lessons in her self-made Goodwill getup, who do you think they'll choose? 9 out of 10 clients who hire a belly dancer are looking for glitz and glamour, which you definitely deliver.

There will always be clients who have misinformed preconceived notions about BD. Some people think that all we do is shake our hips fast in a pretty costume. For those people, an undercutter in a ratty broomstick skirt and hip scarf will do. Do you really want to work for people who don't have good taste or respect for the dance? These are usually the clients who will try to pull the worst crapola on you, anyway.

I know my advice was really kind of generic and not specific to your situation ,r:; I think you're doing the right thing.

But sometimes we all need a little encouraging when it comes to these matters, especially from somebody who lives nearby and is going through the same thing. While I still find myself knee deep in it sometimes, I feel like I've stumbled across a couple of small revelations that have made a huge difference for me recently. I'd love to get together and compare notes with you soon!

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

There will always be clients who have misinformed preconceived notions about BD. Some people think that all we do is shake our hips fast in a pretty costume. For those people, an undercutter in a ratty broomstick skirt and hip scarf will do. Do you really want to work for people who don't have good taste or respect for the dance? These are usually the clients who will try to pull the worst crapola on you, anyway.

Hear hear! I agree with every word posted and the last sentence I have found to be 100% true...

Originally Posted by MaryRaks

Hear hear! I agree with every word posted and the last sentence I have found to be 100% true...

This has always been my experience. Usually, in these cases, the price haggling is just the tip of teh iceberg of stoopidz ,r:;

Yes Lisa...we need to get together soon...I just replied to you email...I'm a little burnout...crazy week!! I need a break

E-mailed you back

I have to say, it's nice to see that I'm not the only CT Bhuzzer with a chip on their shoulder. But things really have gotten squirrelly out there .w.:

Undercutting certainly sucks-- there are a lot of issues with restaurant work that make it overall not worthy of my time and effort. Certainly when a restaurant looks at taking on a dancer to perform on a regular basis, they need to see that they will get a return on that investment, so to speak--- if I pay you, how will i benefit by your being here? So it's certainly hard to pitch that and make it attractive to many, and most certainly a NEW establishment, given that 75% of restaurants fail in the first year. Give it time... make yourself known, maybe even do a trial night with tips and a base fee and the owners should get a better idea of what they really want in there-- talent.

Good stuff, Joy! Especially the reminder that most restaurants fail within their first year. This is key, because we need to understand their concerns just as well as they must understand ours.

Now, more than ever, it's important to communicate a message of added value when working with restaurant owners. When I worked in media sales, I did a lot of consultative marketing with restaurant and bar owners, and learned a lot of revealing stuff. I discovered one thing that virtually all restaurant/bar owners have in common: they all want to stand apart from "the pack." And they'll absolutely invest in entertainers, advertising, events and other extras if they believe that this will differentiate them from their competitor/s down the street. That's why it's important to become a regular customer of theirs, get to know the staff, and ultimately earn their trust if you someday want to work there.

But Joy, I don't blame you for avoiding the restaurant scene. I've decided to stay out of it this year, and I don't miss it one bit

yeh--Its kind of funny actually, I have deferred belly grams and restaurant stuff these past two years. Just don't like them! I love stage shows and workshop shows, etc...haflas. And we've done regular shows at an outdoor cafe (yes, a restaurant for all intensive purposes) but it's more of an experience than a resto, you know? Unfortunately, i know that the owner doesnt make a lot of money, but next season when we return, we shall definitely re-eval our scenario. However, when we dance there, its kind of like our private party and all of our friends take it over. It's special like that.

Well, see, it sounds like you guys found a rare and great exception to the overall restaurant dancing scene here! Aside from the obvious fact that there aren't a whole lot of venues to begin with, we also have a lot of restaurants that are fairly unhip. Either the ambience leaves something to be desired, the clientele just doesn't "get" it, or the owners decide to put the kibosh on belly dancing for whatever reason. I'd probably change my tune if I found a really unique venue that appreciates the arts. 'Til then...."special" is a very apt description ..l;,

Unfortunately a lot of restaurant owners are thrilled to have free dancers. They only care that she looks decent and is not vulgar. I have found so many of them to be cheap and are more than happy to take the free entertainment. I also don't completely agree about dancers who are not paid have no commitment. When I was a baby dancer I took a gig that was tips only (shame on me, I know.... but I learned better and changed) and I was soooo committed. I drove through blizzards, danced with bronchitis, you name it.... for a year. Though it was not good that I felt unworthy of being paid since I was a new dancer, it was a valuable experience that allowed me to move on to better, paying gigs.

Originally Posted by stardancer

Though it was not good that I felt unworthy of being paid since I was a new dancer, it was a valuable experience that allowed me to move on to better, paying gigs.

That's roughly what happened with me when I first started out. Thank goodness, I only had one accidental "isolated incident" of undercutting (and this was due to a lack of communication). But yeah, I didn't have a backbone, so I put up with all sorts of crap just to say I was getting work. At least I grew out of it.

Sad, though, because some dancers, even at the advanced/pro level, still have a very hard time saying "no," sticking to their guns, and turning down those C-level gigs. As long as those dancers exist, there will always be dysfunctional restaurant owners to abuse their goodwill and turn down those of us who command respect

What would happen if we all put our foot down and demanded fair pay and respect?

Man, I must be thick but I just don't get undercutting...

I mean, if you're gonna "perform" for free, why bother getting "hired"? Why bother with getting permission? Show up in your sparklies, shake your butt and smile. Who would turn you down? Guerilla bellydance!!!

*sorry for the sarcasm, I'm having a bad day.