Thread: Ethics in the sale of hafla videos

Not too long ago, I performed at a local hafla. This hafla featured a host of belly dancers from the area, both professional and not.
I had fun and was happy with my performance, and I enjoyed watching the other performers as well.

Now I am having some issues with something that is feeling iffy to me. I will not name the hafla or anyone involved because I don't want to create any drama or hurt any feelings. I was even going to make a sockpuppet for this post, but that might be a little much. I do want to say as a disclaimer, though, that if you were part of this event as an organizer, I don’t mean to offend or backstab you. I am posting here not to make this issue public, but to get some clarification before I can try to resolve this issue in private if indeed there is any issue at all.

So, here it goes…
In this hafla, recording was not permitted. An official videographer was hired to record those who wanted and authorized her to record them. Since I always like to be able to watch my own performances, I authorized the videographer to record me and purchased my video for an amount that is not unusual for those kinds of things.
I received the video and was (for the most part) satisfied with it.

Here’s the catch, though. Months later, I receive a newsletter about this hafla’s DVD being for sale. The DVD in question is a collection of the large majority of performances that occurred that day, including mine, and was priced at less than double the amount I had paid for the video of my performance by itself.
I was completely unaware that this would happen, and I am upset about it on two different levels.
I feel that it’s unfair that I was not notified that I would later have the option to purchase a DVD that would include not just my performance, but that of other dancers that I would love to watch again. If I had known, I would have held off on buying the video of just myself so I could buy a video of mostly everybody, including me, for a price that was not much higher. But now it just doesn’t make sense to do that, as I feel I’ve been cheated out of my money.

(to be continued)

(continued)

The potentially bigger issue is the problem of permission. I was unaware that I would even be in a DVD with the rest of the performers, so how could I possibly have authorized this? If I signed a piece of paper authorizing the videographer to record me (so I could buy my own video), does it automatically follow that they can sell that same video to anyone else that wants it? And does it also mean that they can put that video in a DVD with other videos and sell it to anyone that wants it? Is that legal? Is it fair? Is it ethical for this person to profit from the sale of my image in this manner?

Not that they will be making huge profits out of this video. But the way I am seeing it, it’s one thing for a hafla to offer the service of a professional videographer and to charge dancers to cover the costs of said videographer by having them pay for their own performance video if they wish to have it, but it’s a whole other thing for the videographer to take advantage of having those videos and to then try to make a buck by selling a video of the event to the general public without this having previously been agreed upon and without the dancers involved receiving any sort of compensation for it.
Am I right for feeling this way, and should I seek to speak to the event organizers and videographer in order to clarify and resolve the issue, or is this standard practice and I should suck it up? Should I at least ask to see the contract that I signed to check exactly what I had agreed upon?

Thanks in advance for the help.

I don't like this one bit. Among the many problems is the music rights. Did they get rights to all the music that is on the dvd?
Also, you gave the right to be recorded, not to have said recording sold.

You'd have to have a lawyer look at the release agreement to determine whether what happened was a legal violation of your rights. It does seem to be in rather weak ethics, regardless. It's definitely not standard practice where I live. I guess how you proceed depends on which you are more upset over--having to pay for the first video (which essentially subsidized the production of the larger compilation DVD), or being upset that you're on a DVD that you did not expect was for public distribution?

If it's the first situation, then I don't see why you wouldn't be within your rights to explain that you weren't aware that the second compilation version was to be made when you purchased your original performance video, and attempt to negotiate reasonable compensation. (Would you be satisfied if they refunded your money? Gave you a copy of the compilation DVD?)

If it's the second situation, then depending on what your agreement said, you might be able to threaten a lawsuit, or perhaps you will have to be content with the knowledge that most haflas--professionally videotaped or not--aren't really worth being lovingly treasured on DVD. (Because they're so informal, when they're good, it's often because of the intangibles that don't capture well on film, and when they're bad, it's more like a demonstration of the Top Ten Mistakes Made By Amateur Dancers.) Unless you live in an area that has an amazing wealth of talent, hafla videos rarely appeal to people who weren't there, and often only to dancers who performed in that particular show, so it's probably not destined for widespread distribution.

Messaged you.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Unless you live in an area that has an amazing wealth of talent, hafla videos rarely appeal to people who weren't there, and often only to dancers who performed in that particular show, so it's probably not destined for widespread distribution.

I agree with that. What bothers me isn't the possibility of the video being a success and my not receiving due compensation for it (I'm sure it would bother me if it happened, but I am not looking at this as a likely scenario).

What bothers me is that it seems like the original idea was to let dancers purchase their own performances, and then that morphed into the sale of the DVD of the whole event without asking the people involved. Especially when those very people are the market for that DVD.

Of course, to be sure I would have to read the original contracts that I signed, because I could have misunderstood something to begin with. Maybe I should also ask other dancers that participated if they were aware of this all along, and what their views are on the matter.

I'd been at another hafla before, where similarly, a professional videographer was hired and you could not record, so if you wanted your video you had to buy it (common scenario, from my experience). But the DVD you bought for this came with all the performances, not just your own, which from my experience isn't as common. I did not buy this DVD because I was unhappy with my performance, I considered purchasing it for the other performers but the thought of seeing myself there really irked me, so I skipped that one. I don't remember having signed any sort of permission, however, I was not bothered by the way they did things, because the DVD being sold included all performers from the beginning, and because it was sold only to the people who performed and not advertised in a newsletter.

So I think what bothers me is a little bit of everything. It's nothing I would sue anybody over, and regardless of what happens at least now I know some things I need to watch out for, and in the future I will not take for granted that a hafla videographer is just there to give everyone an opportunity to have a decent-quality video of their performance.

Posting here for public information.
Did any performers get music releases? If not contact the company that represents the music you are dancing to and let them know. They will have lawyers on retainer and will be more vicious in shutting down this sale.

Did you sign a release? Do you have a copy? If so look it over for any sort of mention of public sale of DVD. Look to see if there is compensation for artists whose likeness is being used in the sale of said DVD.

Contact other dancers, (and the musicians who performed) let them know that this is going on, if you all band together as a group you can get a lawyer more affordably.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

Posting here for public information.
Did any performers get music releases? If not contact the company that represents the music you are dancing to and let them know. They will have lawyers on retainer and will be more vicious in shutting down this sale.

Did you sign a release? Do you have a copy? If so look it over for any sort of mention of public sale of DVD. Look to see if there is compensation for artists whose likeness is being used in the sale of said DVD.

Contact other dancers, (and the musicians who performed) let them know that this is going on, if you all band together as a group you can get a lawyer more affordably.

Are you kidding me? That would be outstandingly vicious and petty, IMO.

I'm not condoning what the hafla organizer did, but damn....this would be really bad karma IMO.

I think that the original poster should #1 make sure she really didn't sign a video release as she states she's not really sure. #2 if she didn't, just make the hafla organizer aware that she should have done this, and #3 nothing else.

The hafla organizer is likely not making any "profits" out of this; if anything she may have lost money on the event and be hoping to lessen her losses.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

I agree with that. What bothers me isn't the possibility of the video being a success and my not receiving due compensation for it (I'm sure it would bother me if it happened, but I am not looking at this as a likely scenario).

It doesn't have to be that scenario. You could be pleased with your performance, but still not want it to represent you to other dancers. There's nothing wrong with thinking, "If I knew you were going to sell this to the world, I'd have worn my other costume or danced to a different song!"

Of course, to be sure I would have to read the original contracts that I signed, because I could have misunderstood something to begin with. Maybe I should also ask other dancers that participated if they were aware of this all along, and what their views are on the matter.

If most of the dancers on the DVD share your feelings, then you have a lot more leverage with the videographer. It definitely isn't reasonable to charge you $50 to process your individual performance and then ask someone else to pay $25 for everybody's performances, because the dancers who thought they were only buying their own segments are basically underwriting the cost of the compilation--unless so few dancers wanted to buy their individual performances that the videographer couldn't make ends meet, and felt the compilation was the only way to recoup the difference. A professional videographer should take into account what it costs to gather and edit the raw footage and what the expected sales will be, and set the price point that way--not by doing some convoluted reverse engineering/cost analysis of the project.

I'd been at another hafla before, where similarly, a professional videographer was hired and you could not record, so if you wanted your video you had to buy it (common scenario, from my experience). But the DVD you bought for this came with all the performances, not just your own, which from my experience isn't as common.

Where I live, the DVD typically consists of the full show minus any dancers who opted not to sign the release. The single-dancer videos are more common for local competitions than shows or haflas.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Are you kidding me? That would be outstandingly vicious and petty, IMO.

I'm not condoning what the hafla organizer did, but damn....this would be really bad karma IMO.

I think that the original poster should #1 make sure she really didn't sign a video release as she states she's not really sure. #2 if she didn't, just make the hafla organizer aware that she should have done this, and #3 nothing else.

The hafla organizer is likely not making any "profits" out of this; if anything she may have lost money on the event and be hoping to lessen her losses.

I know the event she is talking about, I know the people, I will not name names but this is not your average teacher hosting a hafla. These people are ruthless. Many people on the video did not give permission for sale, there was no release for the sale of a DVD and a professional videographer is the one doing the selling.

The entire thing stinks, is shady and is wrong.

Most of the people on the DVD are students who I'm sure would not want their student level performances out on a wide release DVD, especially considering the DVD is well over 30 dollars and they are not seeing one red cent. I don't care if it's vicious, it's vicious to exploit baby dancers for profit.

It's not just gone out in a newletter there is a WEBSITE selling the DVD.

ETA: The videographer has already turned a profit selling the DVD to the participants. The hafla charged perforemers to dance (no discount given to performers for their services they had to pay just like everyone else) and given the amount of people they had dancing (and the crappy location of the hafla) there is no way they didn't make money.

And Yame, they had plans to sell this the entire time, it was one of the reasons I did not participate.

Wow. Well in that case the OP still needs to first find out if she inadvertently signed a release.

Even if the performers signed a release, the video is not really legal for public sale without purchase of the music rights. In most cases, it is legal (or within the grey area) to sell an individual performance to the performer as a learning tool, but the music rights issue can still crop up depending on the situation there.

A lot of organizers do sell the dvds of performances and I am sure they don't all purchase the music rights for video recording (these are different from the rights you get to play the music). I love being able to purchase these dvds, but I know that it can cause a lot of legal problems for the organizers in the long run.

Well this is totally an aside from the topic, and I'm such wimp I feel like creating a sock puppet to say this, but . . . I'd rather see a different word used to describe what has happened here than "gypped." I'm not one of those who object to the term "Gypsy" (I don't), but to say that one has been gypped out of money . . . ouch.
Okay,
Rosette

Originally Posted by Rosette

Well this is totally an aside from the topic, and I'm such wimp I feel like creating a sock puppet to say this, but . . . I'd rather see a different word used to describe what has happened here than "gypped." I'm not one of those who object to the term "Gypsy" (I don't), but to say that one has been gypped out of money . . . ouch.
Okay,
Rosette

For some reason, I never made the connection between the two (that "gypped" comes from "Gypsy"). To me it's just a word, not attached to any personal feelings against anybody, but if it's still offensive to you I'll be happy to use another word of your choice.

Yameyameyame,
Yes I can understand you might not have made the connection. The word does come from "Gypsy" and the perception (sadly based in some historic realities, yet not valid as a generalization about an entire ethnic group) of the Romani people as swindlers, thieves, con artists. "Cheated" or "conned" would be good substitutes.
Thanks for your response.
Rosette

If you didn't agree to let your image be used in a vid that is sold to the public, they shouldn't be able to use it period. Double and triple check the release you signed. All the ones I have seen say "video is available to the performer for such and such a price". "Organizer retains copies as historical documentaion but not for public viewing/use" that type of thing. If it does not mention that you are releasing it for sale or that you are signing your rights over to the videographer or organizer then they are screwed IMO.

I would contact a lawyer. Copyright matters are really complicated. But personally I would be upset. I don't even like it when people sell pictures of me without my permission, then "offer me a deal at a discount rate" when I never authorized the sale nor was I cut into any of the profits! If it was a video I would have a coronary.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

I'd been at another hafla before, where similarly, a professional videographer was hired and you could not record, so if you wanted your video you had to buy it (common scenario, from my experience). But the DVD you bought for this came with all the performances, not just your own, which from my experience isn't as common. I did not buy this DVD because I was unhappy with my performance, I considered purchasing it for the other performers but the thought of seeing myself there really irked me, so I skipped that one. I don't remember having signed any sort of permission, however, I was not bothered by the way they did things, because the DVD being sold included all performers from the beginning, and because it was sold only to the people who performed and not advertised in a newsletter.

I think this is a key difference, from an ethical perspective, as compared to the experience you're currently having.

At our haflas, we have often done what you describe in this clip above--mainly because it is not been especially cost/time effective for the person who is doing the videos, basically at cost, to spend a ton of time slicing, dicing making individual dvds. Also, so often performers and performer/organizers end up missing anywhere from some to all of the other performances, and they really want to see the rest of the show! HOWEVER, the videos are only available to the performers, no other taping is allowed, other measures taken etc. People who perform in the hafla are informed that the hafla is being videotaped and dvds will be made available to them at a low cost. They are welcome to ask to be excluded from the video and that request, if made, will always be honored, but we've just made it opt out instead of opt in. I used to do release forms, but esp in the larger haflas with multiple student groups and troupes (can get up around 60-70 bodies in the show sometimes with student groups!) and (invariably) people showing late for call time, in the flurry of activity before the show starts, it becomes almost impossible to be sure everyone signs a form.

I agree that what organizers of hafla did was plain wrong. Period. I don't think Tanya is out of line stating maybe a lawyer should be involved. They are selling the video to the general public without performers being aware ahead of time nor their permission. Like stated there are students and pros on there. What student wants to be compared against a pro? Paricularly a beginner. No beginner should be subjected to that, particularly not knowing.
Why should the organizer charge the performers for 1 performance than turn around and sell whole performance to anyone particularly without performers consent. Organizer is making money off of performer's performances. They should be compensated or at very least have same price and video not pay almost a huge price for their one performance compared to all performances. Sound like hafla organizers are quite shady and unethical indeed. The other dancers and performers should be made aware of situation.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

And Yame, they had plans to sell this the entire time, it was one of the reasons I did not participate.

UGH!!!! I know what hafla this is too, and I'm having the same issue! This was not mentioned anywhere!

I'm pm'ing you both.

I'd just like to add that I asked to see the release that I signed. In the release, it said that I was giving permission to be recorded and have my video sold.

Still, this is very vague language, given the context. I knew the video would be "sold," because I would be the one buying it. I was not made explicitly aware that my video would be sold to the general public, but lesson learned. I will never make these assumptions again.

If I was the only one who was gullible, then it's a mistake on my part and I should learn my lesson and leave it at that.
But it seems that I am not the only dancer that is upset about this. It seems like they intentionally meant to be misleading.

Advice is still appreciated...

No you are not the only dancer upset. The list is growing. I will message you a name of a dancer putting together a group letter.

The language is mis-leading and does the contract speak of remuneration or any sort of rights to use the footage?

Also music releases were not obtained.

Shady shady shady. I say a cease and desist order is in need. Bring the release you signed to a Lawyer and ask their opinion and for help. I'm really starting to dislike these people for their ethics and blatant disregard for the people who already lined their pockets once.

Do you know of any other instances where the same people were involved in ethically questionable practices?

The contract they sent me when I requested to see what I signed doesn't say anything about remuneration, it's very short and vague. If need be I can post it here. They didn't send me a copy with my signature though.

And no, of course music releases were not obtained. With such blatant disregard for the dancers involved, I would not have expected them to have cared for the musicians.

I will get in touch with said dancer.

Don't have any advice other than talk to a lawyer. Just wanted to say I'm sorry this happened to you. This is just plain greedy and evil.

Yame I do, don't want to go into it on the boards, PM me and I'll give you my number.

Organizers must respect the folks who generously provide their dances for any kind of event! Sure, it's not always easy to put thoughts and ideas into words that mean the same thing to everyone who reads them, but clarity is of utmost importance . . . if an organizer isn't certain of the clarity of his/her message, it's really not that difficult to show the proposed wording to several different people of different ages, education, life experiences to see if you get the same result from each.

As to selling the video of a y'all come type of event, such as a hafla, where you have folks who've been professionally dancing for 20 years juxtaposed to students doing their first out-of-class performances is something I'd never contemplate as an organizer; and I certainly wouldn't allow the videographer to sell them, either!

Deborah