Thread: the opposite...non-pros overcharging

I find this hilarious, ridiculous , and sad. Over the years I have met soo many people, and unfortunatley some of those have been girls who put on the costume and think they are bellydancers. One in particular never belly danced a day in her life until she started working at a certain restaurant. Since then on she puts youtube vid, photo shoots, the works to get herself out there in an attempt to convince others that she is a professional bellydancer just because she has been lucky enough to work in that place for a couple of years now (the bosses know nothing of bd). What is hilarious is that she begins charging at around $400 for two sets at private parties. If you are a well known professional that is fine but some horrible dancing person just cant be that full of themselves...can they? What do you all think of this one/

well at least its better than undercutting.

Originally Posted by jordonezbellydance

I find this hilarious, ridiculous , and sad. Over the years I have met soo many people, and unfortunatley some of those have been girls who put on the costume and think they are bellydancers. One in particular never belly danced a day in her life until she started working at a certain restaurant. Since then on she puts youtube vid, photo shoots, the works to get herself out there in an attempt to convince others that she is a professional bellydancer just because she has been lucky enough to work in that place for a couple of years now (the bosses know nothing of bd). What is hilarious is that she begins charging at around $400 for two sets at private parties. If you are a well known professional that is fine but some horrible dancing person just cant be that full of themselves...can they? What do you all think of this one/

That's actually about right for a professional performer. The label "professional" (at least in belly dance) does not mean talented and well-trained, it just means you get hired and paid. So whether you think she's qualified or not, at least she's not contributing to the undercutting issue.

Well, I guess she is getting hired and paid so it doesn't necessarily mean she is talented. A classmate considers herself to be "self-taught" and she is teaching at all the rec centers. She does not perform as she looks too overweight and her breasts burst out of her bra.
Perhaps this dancer in your area looks good in a costume?

Originally Posted by jordonezbellydance

I find this hilarious, ridiculous , and sad. Over the years I have met soo many people, and unfortunatley some of those have been girls who put on the costume and think they are bellydancers. One in particular never belly danced a day in her life until she started working at a certain restaurant. Since then on she puts youtube vid, photo shoots, the works to get herself out there in an attempt to convince others that she is a professional bellydancer just because she has been lucky enough to work in that place for a couple of years now (the bosses know nothing of bd). What is hilarious is that she begins charging at around $400 for two sets at private parties. If you are a well known professional that is fine but some horrible dancing person just cant be that full of themselves...can they? What do you all think of this one/

This kind of dancer may be laughable, but at least she isn't undercutting. And if she's just pulling out the "professional trappings" without lying about or exaggerating her personal history/training, she's not even being dishonest...just a savvy (if somewhat headstrong) businesswoman. And it is entirely likely that her dancing's improved since she started at the restaurant.

But after a couple of years of work, if she's still not any good, the other pro dancers in her area need to step up their marketing skills. Don't diss her, but make it easy for new potential clients to find out that she's not the only dancer in town (if they're looking). You should be able to refer them to YOUR website, you-tube vids, etc.. If someone asks what you think of Miss "Ima Professional-Really", say that you've seen her dance, but that you personally prefer Ms. BetterDancer's style - or just recommend that your friend watch a few dancers and then decide for themselves who they like better.

The really sad thing is that some people don't really watch the dancing, and instead rely on other people's opinions, and delight in spreading trash-talk around. Even other dancers, who should know better! I think it's better to get the public WATCHING dance, and try to get them to articulate what they like and don't like about it. Often a dance performance is much better (or worse) than we would expect from the "on paper" components of the dancer's training and history.

Morocco never bellydanced a day in her life until she started working at a restaurant, either. My question is, have you seen this dancer you are concerned about dance recently? You say she's been at it two years. Being very under-qualified for the job is not unusual for beginning dancers in any genre, but some of them are dance geniuses who make the most of the opportunity. Some are not dance geniuses, but have a genius for expressing the spirit of youth and joy no matter what they are doing, and audiences enjoy this as well.

i also rather they over than undercharge...

and yes, the slick and very good advertising of dancers i do not rate has mostly helped kick my own butt into gear to improve my own publicity, rather than grumble about theirs (although admittingly that was my first reaction too)...

Bad dancing doesn't help our bellydancing image one bit...
But, she's saying "hey, what we do is worth paying money for" and marketing herself as a pro instead of undercutting. If she's finding the market allows for her to charge what she is, so be it.

If she's taking business from you, gigs you'd like to be getting for the same cash, then step up your promotional game and marketing.

I applaud her for asking the going rate for professional entertainment and getting it! Excellent!

What everybody else said, and especially what Ozma said.

I think a lot of dancers take an adversarial stance toward marketing, favoring some abstract idea of "truth in advertising." The reality of the situation is that dancers themselves are the only ones who are trained to sniff out truth in advertising. 'Til the general public learns to discern Suzy Mediocre from real talent, those who make themselves the most visible in the marketplace will continue to get lots of gigs. Not that this phenomenon makes me happy or anything - I'm simply observing aloud. I think it's time that our community stops lambasting others for being business-savvy, replaces concepts like "shameless self-promotion" with "normal marketing functions," and learns a thing or two from each other about how to present the dance to the public in a way that commands fair rates. We b*tch about untrained dancers marketing themselves aggressively, but what would happen if GOOD dancers got their names out there? The results could be monumental.

And by the way, this is coming from somebody who was afraid to promote herself for the first 3 years of her dance career.

Not a problem. She is charging standard rate, and people are hiring her at said rate so she must have something going for her.
No offense but this sounds like sour grapes.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

No offense but this sounds like sour grapes.

This is the impression I got, too.

I used to always complain that everybody else got all the gigs. When I kicked myself into high gear and started marketing myself ambitiously, I finally shut my pie hole and began to feel secure. When you have your own niche, it really doesn't matter what everybody else out there is doing. (Though undercutting still chafes my hide).

Back to the OP's point - Another sorta obvious marketing fact that a lot of dancers forget is that there's no such thing as a one-size-fits-all client. Different people have different motivations for hiring a dancer. We can second guess what we think the "universal belly dance client" likes to see, but often there can be a gap between our hypothesis and what's really going through a prospect's brain. Some clients might be swayed by a wardrobe full of nice costumes. Others might be impressed by a dancer's experience level. And many are suckers for awesome customer service. There is really no silver bullet - but there's so much more that goes into being marketable to the general public than being an established veteran in your local scene, a technical virtuoso, a discerning connoisseur of the arts, an authentic folklore dancer, or whatever. There's a whole constellation of other factors to consider.

You can learn a lot by doing a little bit of objective competitive analysis. What do you think this dancer has to offer that makes her so successful? Dig a little deeper than, "Oh, she's just young and cute." Does she have slick promotional materials? Has she appeared in the media? Is she a great entertainer who can engage a crowd (even if she's not a perfect technical dancer)? Do you think she has a great customer service approach? I can't tell you how many times clients have called me and said, "It's so nice to finally get a human being on the phone." Sometimes, something as stupid as returning a call within 60 minutes can land you a gig.

You might not like this dancer or her dance style, but not everyone can get away with charging more than their peers. It might benefit you to see what she might be doing right than to pick apart what you think is wrong. Just my $0.02, anyway.

In the absence of any certification process which would present a clear delineation between what is "pro" and what is not, "professional" becomes a mixture of ambiguous concepts like the ability to secure paid gigs and knowing how to present yourself in a way that the audience can recognize as what they want to pay for. If this dancer is what the market supports, then that sort of makes her "professional" by default--whether it matches the dance community's ideal or not.

There's also the idea that not everybody likes the same style and presentation. What looks like a hot mess to one person may look like artistry in motion to another. I can think of a handful of very well regarded teachers whom I wouldn't pay to study with. It doesn't invalidate what they're doing--they're just not my taste.

Originally Posted by jordonezbellydance

I find this hilarious, ridiculous , and sad. Over the years I have met soo many people, and unfortunatley some of those have been girls who put on the costume and think they are bellydancers. One in particular never belly danced a day in her life until she started working at a certain restaurant. Since then on she puts youtube vid, photo shoots, the works to get herself out there in an attempt to convince others that she is a professional bellydancer just because she has been lucky enough to work in that place for a couple of years now (the bosses know nothing of bd). What is hilarious is that she begins charging at around $400 for two sets at private parties. If you are a well known professional that is fine but some horrible dancing person just cant be that full of themselves...can they? What do you all think of this one/

Something, or someone, is only worth what others will pay for it (them). If this woman can command that kind of fee, good luck to her. You may not consider her worth it, but obviously, someone does. Her good luck, it seems. I recently got paid an astounding amount for single 15 minute gig. I demanded it, (partly because I didn't particularly want it) and I got it. So I thought,, what the hell, if they're happy to to pay me, that's fine. Perhaps this is her attitude also, and it obviously works for her. Don't begrudge someone their fee, as has been pointed out...at least she's not undercutting.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

Morocco never bellydanced a day in her life until she started working at a restaurant, either. My question is, have you seen this dancer you are concerned about dance recently? You say she's been at it two years. Being very under-qualified for the job is not unusual for beginning dancers in any genre, but some of them are dance geniuses who make the most of the opportunity. Some are not dance geniuses, but have a genius for expressing the spirit of youth and joy no matter what they are doing, and audiences enjoy this as well.

She hadn't done Middle Eastern dance but was a featured soloist in a flamenco dance company, as I recall...I wouldn't put her in the same category as some bellybunny wannabe with no dance training whatsoever.

~~Kimahri

Originally Posted by maurazebra

Being very under-qualified for the job is not unusual for beginning dancers in any genre, but some of them are dance geniuses who make the most of the opportunity.

Agreed. I definitely went pro way before I was technically, emotionally and stylistically ready. I admit I was a bit clueless when I first started, but thankfully, I only had one "isolated incident" of undercutting due to a miscommunication.

At the time, I never questioned whether or not I was ready. Everybody else at my experience level seemed to be "going pro," and I was lucky enough to have a very close mentor. On the one hand, I wish I'd waited a little bit longer 'til I'd mellowed as a person and matured as a dancer. On the other hand, I think becoming a pro dancer is kind of like raising your first child. There's no magic book that falls out of the sky with all the answers. And you will make mistakes along the way. And that's OK.

I do think teachers should be more conscientious in the way they talk about "going pro." In other words, they should prime their students for the less glamorous side - the business aspect, not having a social life, the occasional toss-up between keeping your integrity and getting a gig, the scumbags & perverts, the jealous beeyotches....et cetera. I think too many dancers start gigging too soon due to a delusion that what we do is all unicorns and rainbows. But I also think we should be a little bit more patient toward student dancers and newcomers. We were all noobs at one point or another, you know? ,r:;

I don't know if you can call someone who's been dancing in a restaurant for a couple of years and is doing private parties a 'non-pro.' If years of working professionally don't make you a pro who should be charging pro rates, then what exactly does?


You can say she's an unskilled pro, but that's a judgment call. Not saying that I might not agree 100% with your judgment if I saw her dance!

In my area, those rates would be considered at the high end. But the consensus is that we should all charge a certain minimum rate but those who can get more should be asking for it. I might laugh at a bad dancer charging a ridiculously high price, but she's not hurting anyone but herself if she's not good enough to get it.

And if she's able to get it... then that should RAISE the bar for everyone else, really.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

And if she's able to get it... then that should RAISE the bar for everyone else, really.

The only issue I can see is if she isn't good (making belly dance look bad), but that has really nothing to do with how much she can command. However, it isn't clear to me if she is untalented.

Well, to cut an extremely long story and resulting lecture short...

I REFUSE to comment on this so called "horrible" dancer in regard to her charging $400+ for her dancing until I see her dancing (and even then, who am I to comment? What I see and what Joe Blow sees is still two different things) but I will say this.

Obviously her marketing and presentation of herself is working. And her dancing must be working too. Most of the general public have no idea how 'brilliant' a dancer a bellydancer is supposed to be. She can show up in a gorgeous costume and stand shimmying for 20 minutes with a few hip drops, maya's and snake arms thrown in and Joe Blow, who has never seen a bellydancer, or enough of them, hasn't got enough info to be able to sit back and say "hey she ain't worth $400, she's horrible, she's crap and I've wasted my money" is none the wiser.

Kudo's to her for not undercharging!

If you are in the same area and competing for jobs that you aren't getting but she is, I suggest you take a leaf out of her marketing book....If it can work for her, it can work for you :)

I will give you a perfect example of how successful these people can become.

This particular lady is one of Australia's top professional bellydancers. Read how she got her start in the bellydance arena. Yes, it was many years ago for our beloved Elenie, but it is no different to how this girl/woman is starting now.

Araby Belly Dance Academy

Elenie commands a very high price and hardly has time to sit down 30 years later!

It all reminds me of something I heard in a recent lecture on marketing during a recession. The speaker said, "If people aren't buying from you, then it's your fault that they're not getting the best."

I hate to say it, but I really think it's true.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

It all reminds me of something I heard in a recent lecture on marketing during a recession. The speaker said, "If people aren't buying from you, then it's your fault that they're not getting the best."

I hate to say it, but I really think it's true.

I couldn't agree with you more.

You really can't fault someone for making a living. As far as you've said she's not poaching clients. She's not undercutting. She's good at marketing.

I don't think $400 for 2 shows is outrageous either. I think it's a pretty standard.

I'm sure we all can relate to not believing that someone is paid to do what they do...I'm sure we've all met someone who we didn't think should be dancing or painting or making music or selling furniture. But so long as you're not the customer and you're not being hurt by them, I think you can't really complain.

When it comes down to it, this dancer is not in any way affecting your ability to price yourself appropriately and land gigs.

If you're a better dancer, and you're both charging the going rate or perhaps you price yourself a bit above it, then you need to consider why she's getting the gigs and you're not. What is it that's working in her marketing? What's failing in yours? It sounds like you could learn a lot from this dancer - even if I take your word for it that she is not a skilled dancer, she's certainly a skilled business woman.

Originally Posted by Kimahri

She hadn't done Middle Eastern dance but was a featured soloist in a flamenco dance company, as I recall...I wouldn't put her in the same category as some bellybunny wannabe with no dance training whatsoever. ~~Kimahri

Your original complaint was that the dancer you are complaining about hadn't belly danced a day in her life until she started performing two years ago, which is similar to how Morocco got started. Okay, so the dancer who gripes you had NO dance training before she started performing. I'm still curious -- have you seen her dance recently? Has she made good use of her opportunities? You have posted a strong criticism about a dancer who might very well be able to identify herself (or be identified as) the person being complained about, and you seem to be expecting us to join in. That's a serious moral responsibility, to say nothing of the non-fun of getting involved in local dance politics, and you haven't given us a lot of information to go on.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

And if she's able to get it... then that should RAISE the bar for everyone else, really.

I totally agree with this! I used to think that number sounded a bit high until I tried to hired an Elvis impersonator. They charge 2-4 times what bellydancers charge, and they believe they are worth every penny. Why shouldn't bellydancers believe they are worth more?

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

Why shouldn't bellydancers believe they are worth more?

Because everybody knows it's not becoming of a lady to market herself confidently and charge what she's worth. Heaven forbid, your dance sistahs think you're full of yourself ,r:;

Is it possible to overcharge?!

I say, if she is charging $400, then everyone who is better/more experienced/whatever can now charge $500!

In the OP's defense, I could see that if this situation happened to me, I'd be a bit upset at first too. Like, "What about me and other dancers here who have been toiling away?" But hey, no one owes me and my dance friends anything and this is a great opportunity.

Like everyone is suggesting, use it to your advantage, step up the marketing and step up the prices.

I'm not going to put this OP down, it seems hypocritical to blast her for blasting someone else.

Originally Posted by phillyraqs

Is it possible to overcharge?! ...
Like everyone is suggesting, use it to your advantage, step up the marketing and step up the prices...
.

Is it possible to over charge?
I'd say if they are willing to hire you again or refer you to others you are NOT over charging for what you are providing. BUT, if you never get asked back, maybe the dancer needs to step it up and get her dance/entertainment package up to par with the price.
...but I also agree- this particular situation is one that can be put to good use. ..g.:

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Because everybody knows it's not becoming of a lady to market herself confidently and charge what she's worth. Heaven forbid, your dance sistahs think you're full of yourself ,r:;

Right!?!

I just attended this afternoon ladies tea here in Vegas and the speaker was a nationally prominent estate planning attorney...and she said in the lecture that if there was one lesson that she wished she had learned earlier in life, it was that she wished she would have stepped it up and asked to be paid what she was worth sooner.