Thread: How to become "famous"....

I think there have been a lot of good contributions to this thread, but I wanted to add that whether you are relying on slick advertising or word of mouth or both, 'putting in your time' is essential either way- Aziza gave a talk about professionalism when she did a workshop here, and one thing she pointed out is that she didn't get much from some of her early videos, etc- but she knew it would get her name out there, so she did it anyway. Being an instructor at something like the LVI also gains you exposure, even if you don't get the headliner benefits. A lot of folks who are brought up for workshops here are brought up because some one here went to a festival, was impressed by a dancer and wanted to bring them up- of course you want to be choosy about what gigs you accept, but don't discount opportunities that seem like small potatoes in the short term- evaluate the long term possibilities of those opportunities as well! I really appreciate Samira and other sponsors who are able to bring in the lesser known talent as well, it does help them build their 'name'

be first, be different, be best is standard marketing. & it still works- finding your niche early (even if not absolutely first) and striving for excellence is what everyone should be doing!

I will say that expectations do change with technology tho- someone brought up Cassandra earlier- I heard Cassandra's name for years before I finally saw a video that convinced me, yes, she's worth the hype- that was back in the video age... now we hit the internet age- I am in an isolated area- if I am going to drive 300+miles just for an in-state workshop, you bet I'm going to be on the internet hunting down a website and possibly videos of that instructor before I commit to spending 4 days plus travel money to get there! For a bigger splurge, I just have to decide if I'm going to the LVI with the rest of my troupe next year, or if I will hold out for the IBCC by myself- and yes, it does depend on who those festivals are bringing in!

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

I just was surprised to hear that there are people who think I hold their career in my hands. Organizers probably have a vast array of reasons they hire someone, but building somebody's career for them probably isn't one of them.

So true!

But then consider ejaghana's question:

Do any of you think that luck has anything to do with becoming famous? It seems that sometimes, no matter how much self promotion and word of mouth advertising a *really good* dancer does, they just can't get their foot in the door. Then you have other dancers who seemingly come out of nowhere and are overnight sensations.

It's apparent that in this industry, just as in others, sometimes it is who and not what you know. I have seen fantastic dancers fall by the way-side and others that have "sponsors", or well regarded established dancers, that speak well of them and promote them, shoot to stardom.

But, the event organiser really comes in after all this has happened. An event doesn't create a headliner it utilizes them.

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

An event doesn't create a headliner it utilizes them.

That's exactly how I feel.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

Are you really surprised? It seems as though so many dancers (and other artistic types!) are waiting for someone to discover them /rescue them. You must be a frequent prime target for those kind of fantasies.

RESCUE me, dum dum de dum, dum dum....

LOL. ..l;,..l;,..l;,

Honestly, this year was the first time I ever heard such a thing. And I think, in part, it is because it is the first year I have a local headliner. So there has been more disucssion about it in my circle of friends. And, yes, I was very surprised. That thought has just never even crossed my mind.

Come on aaaannnd RE-HEH_HEH-cue me!

First local headliner? You may have just accidentally crowned someone the belly dance queen of Las Vegas. Our studio sponsors whoever we want, but as president of MEDSOK I resist suggestions to hire members, no matter how good, as annual MEDSOK workshop teacher. I don't want to deal with the hurt feelings. The gentlest, kindest, most experienced dancers get all mournful and mopey when their friend in dance suddenly gets a big promotion. How the less gentle, kind and experienced dancers react I do not want to find out. And this is just our little local event! Cannot imagine what you are going through. I wish whoever is complaining had the good sense to realize that there's always another year instead of scaring you away from using local talent...

Samira, you should give a presentation on these business aspects of BD. I love your approach and wish more performers and organizers (in ALL genres) had the wisdom, rationale and business savvy that you do!

As someone from outside the USA, I think there is a big difference and approach to achieving any level of fame (in whatever form it takes for any given dancer). In Canada, if you're not from (or in) Toronto or Montreal, you really haven't got much of a hope of becoming "famous" enough to be a Headliner at a big U.S. event without taking many extra steps. There are some over the top amazing teachers here who just can't break into the global market. And I think being "global" is the biggest thing in being a draw to an event as a Headliner.

Considering the level of work, time, dedication, and access to networking and promotional opportunities is required to get one's name out, it is sort of pointless to try this in an area where resources don't exist. It costs WAY more to be based in Vancouver and incur all associated costs with getting to the areas you need to get to in order to participate in shows, or teach etc. than it would if you simply relocated yourself to an area where all that is cheaper and closer. There are a few names from here who are just now starting to get recognized internationally however they've had to develop different strategies and approach their growth differently. Crossing that line to International recognition seems to be the biggest barrier to break. I'm not saying its impossible, but it's a different process for those outside the USA.

IBCC this year has 9 Headliners, only Hadia is Canadian (except of course for Yazmina, but its her gig!). She started here in Vancouver, but you'll note ALL her accolades are from the USA. Its her American accomplishments that got her on people's radar.

I'm not saying that any of this is a bad thing, its just a reality. If you're not based in the USA and you want to get to the point where you have enough draw to become a "Headliner" at a major event, I honestly think you have to relocate or spend more time in the States.

The final irony - just over two years ago, Yasmina was to do a weekend workshop here in Vancouver. It had to be canceled due to low registration. There was a BDSS workshop a week or so after, that totally sold out. That speaks to Samira's point of knowing your market: "draw" and "deliver" are in the eye of the beholder.

Originally Posted by elljay

Samira, you should give a presentation on these business aspects of BD. I love your approach and wish more performers and organizers (in ALL genres) had the wisdom, rationale and business savvy that you do!
.

Samira thinks we forgot, but we didn't:
Event Producing -- Retreat... - The Biz of Belly Dance - tribe.net

I think that dancers like Cassandra are so "famous" because they don't lose their roots....and eventually, when it boils down to it, we all go back to our roots (of belly dance, that is!). It's the history of the dance...where it all started...and we all know how important that is! Different styles that are new will always be popular, and those dancers will always be "famous" for the same reason...but I think we need to market our "roots" a little better to the younger/newer dancers. I know when I first started dancing all I wanted to learn was TRIBAL...but I quickly realised that I wanted to learn the roots of it, and how important that was. And there are soooo many different "roots" that I'll never learn them all (although I'm having fun trying!).
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I wish more people would see that dancers like Cassandra should ALWAYS be the headliner. They should be the inspiration for our dance NOW~for many I'm sure that they are, but we should respect them more!
~stepping down from soapbox~
=)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Today we're much more discerning. Workshops and videos are EVERYWHERE competing for our dollars and attention.

An instructor coming in to teach needs to be able to bring bodies into the classroom. Those bodies are only going to come if they believe this instructor can make them better dancers. People won't come just because there's a workshop any more. We have to have seen the person dance, maybe even had a taste of their teaching style.

So, it helps if:

- they have youtube clips out there SO good that they've gone viral

- they're on more than one compilation video and consistently rock. (By Dancers for Dancers, IAMED, etc)

- they have brilliant instructional videos on the market.

- they teach workshops that people can't stop raving about afterwards.

- they've come to my town to *attend* workshops and performed in the show at least a couple of times, and they impressed us with their lovely personality during class and their dancing blew us away.

If any of the above are true, then I'll hear about them, on Bhuz or on Facebook or from dance friends, eventually.

Advertising doesn't really do much for me.

I agree 100%. Not living in the US, dancers are famous for me particularly when fulfilling the first 3 of your points (great youtube presence, performances on easily accessible performance dvds by IAMED, WDNY, HMC, or Cheeky Girls Productions above all, great instructionals, by these companies or self-produced). Word of mouth is a plus, but I must say I would always want to see a performance or more myself. Need not be a high quality production, an audience member filming a restaurant performance can be enough. Got me hooked on Sandra (Bay Area) years ago ;)

Wow, great thread!! I think it's important to have a balance in marketing--- advertising is very important, so is networking and word of mouth, you can't sit home and hope you will get noticed, you have to be proactive in your approach, and there is nothing wrong with saying "Hey, I'd love to perform/teach/volunteer at your event in the future if you have an opening" The key is to be honest with yourself about what level you are at in your career and training, confidence and cocky are two totally different things, so honesty is key!
The only way you can get 20 years, is by getting 20 years, there is no shortcut, we all had to put in our time and EARN our place through hard work. Slick hyped media will just blow up in your face if you can't deliver as someone else pointed out.

Personally I feel it's important to look at what area you want to move into, local restaurant work, call and ask to audition, if it's performances at big events and on DVD's like BDFD or IAMED, then submit a video to the producer for consideration, but teaching workshops is a whole other area that newer dancers should respect.........

......... Fahtiem once told me that she thought it was great that I waited and really cultivated my art before jumping into that arena. I've been an Oriental dancer for 32 years, but I waited a loooong time to throw my hat in the ring to do the workshop circuit, because I also felt like you should have a ton of experience in all levels of this dance before you set out to teach workshops. I would never want to embarrass myself teaching a workshop before I was truly ready, especially when they just had Sahra or Morocco 2 months ago in that area.
I still study and take workshops myself and travel to do privates with other old timers that I have admired through my career, it's amazing that there is still so much for me to learn, thank God, this way I'll never get bored!
I feel bad when I see dancers with 5 years thinking they are qualified for the workshop circuit, while they may have a good teaching style, they don't have the experience that is so important, and it can be a brutal lesson.

Staying grounded was mentioned, and this is a huge one for me, I want a teacher that has done it all, but is very approachable and kind, one who doesn't look down her nose if the students can't 'get' her style, footwork, etc. but also knows her stuff.

I just remember to be grateful for what I have, and what I've been able to experience in my career. If I quit dancing today I would be very happy with how my career turned out. Being the most famous dancer is not really the goal, it's being able to do what you love and on a broad level, if fame comes with it great, if not that's OK too. Whether I'm teaching a private lesson to a dancer here in Vegas, or a workshop with 125 students I'm enjoying passing on what was given to me by my Mom and other dancers in the past.

On a side note, I teach a workshop/lecture for becoming a pro dancer, and everything from working with live bands, music you should know, nightclub work and handling customers, tipping, dancer to dancer etiquette, rules of conduct, various areas to market yourself and negotiating salaries. I just pulled from my years of experience so dancers don't have to learn the hard way!..g.: There is a great article in Zaghareet this month about the business side of the dance, while it's my least favorite part of my career, it touched on some good points! Bahaia also wrote an article a few years back about this, it's worth checking out!

Never mind, I don't really care

Originally Posted by maurazebra

Come on aaaannnd RE-HEH_HEH-cue me!

First local headliner? You may have just accidentally crowned someone the belly dance queen of Las Vegas. Our studio sponsors whoever we want, but as president of MEDSOK I resist suggestions to hire members, no matter how good, as annual MEDSOK workshop teacher. I don't want to deal with the hurt feelings. The gentlest, kindest, most experienced dancers get all mournful and mopey when their friend in dance suddenly gets a big promotion. How the less gentle, kind and experienced dancers react I do not want to find out. And this is just our little local event! Cannot imagine what you are going through. I wish whoever is complaining had the good sense to realize that there's always another year instead of scaring you away from using local talent...

Oh, it isn't that bad. I haven't really taken a huge beating over it. I've just had a couple of small discussions with people--nothing ugly. It just got me thinking, that's all. I think that most people here in our local community totally feel that Aradia is deserving. And she is deserving. That was really the point of my post. And I should be clear... Aradia didn't ask to be the headliner, she asked a couple of years ago if I would consider her for a headlining position. It was partly because she had the courage to speak her desire that I have been paying attention to her and her career. She is completely worthy of being a headliner....which is why she's headlining in 2010.

I've actually had a number of people say they were happy to see a local achieve "headliner" status. I do this event, in part, to showcase the local community...so it's about time we have a local headliner. And you are right, there are more opportunities in the future.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

Samira thinks we forgot, but we didn't:
Event Producing -- Retreat... - The Biz of Belly Dance - tribe.net

OH I AM SO BUSTED!!!

Actually, I am going to do an informal version of this Feb. 4th & 5th. I am pretty sure that Chuck & Kajira (of Tribal Fest), Brad Dosland (of Tribal Throwdown), and Lotus Niraja (of the Bellydance Nationals) are coming. I haven't formally announced anything, because 1) I don't have a firm location and 2) because I was thinking it would just be a little small and informal.

But..that being said, if you are an organizer and would like to come to Vegas to hang out with me and talk shop...I'd love to have you join me. I will probably do it at my house. I was going to ask a small fee to cover munchies and/or space cost (if I have to find a bigger space). Just drop me an email.

We have a pretty fabulous outline of topics. (Perhaps I should start another thread). LOL.

Samira at bellydanceintensive dot com

Originally Posted by harmoney76

I think that dancers like Cassandra are so "famous" because they don't lose their roots....and eventually, when it boils down to it, we all go back to our roots (of belly dance, that is!). It's the history of the dance...where it all started...and we all know how important that is! Different styles that are new will always be popular, and those dancers will always be "famous" for the same reason...but I think we need to market our "roots" a little better to the younger/newer dancers. I know when I first started dancing all I wanted to learn was TRIBAL...but I quickly realised that I wanted to learn the roots of it, and how important that was. And there are soooo many different "roots" that I'll never learn them all (although I'm having fun trying!).
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I wish more people would see that dancers like Cassandra should ALWAYS be the headliner. They should be the inspiration for our dance NOW~for many I'm sure that they are, but we should respect them more!
~stepping down from soapbox~
=)

It's a lovely soapbox.

I've found that I like trying to balance my group of headliners in ways that:
a) highlight various styles--tribal/fusion, oriental, folkloric
b) balance young up & coming with established rocking talent

I think that's great idea Samira, even for new people who just want to start out sponsoring workshops and evolve it into a big weekend event like the Intensive! I think you would get a lot of response since there isn't much out there as far as training to run these types of events, most people learn by trial and error, and like becoming a pro dancer, it can be a painful experience without someone to mentor you through the process.

Originally Posted by elljay

Samira, you should give a presentation on these business aspects of BD. I love your approach and wish more performers and organizers (in ALL genres) had the wisdom, rationale and business savvy that you do!

Awww...shucks. :Aembarassed: Thanks.

As someone from outside the USA, I think there is a big difference and approach to achieving any level of fame (in whatever form it takes for any given dancer). In Canada, if you're not from (or in) Toronto or Montreal, you really haven't got much of a hope of becoming "famous" enough to be a Headliner at a big U.S. event without taking many extra steps. There are some over the top amazing teachers here who just can't break into the global market. And I think being "global" is the biggest thing in being a draw to an event as a Headliner.

Very interesting points I hadn't really thought about. I look at the IBCC and think it's got to be one hell of an event. I've heard great things and love what she is doing. I hope to get there myself one of these days.

But I hadn't even really considered what non-USA based dancers would need to consider. I do know that I'd love to hire more people outside of the USA, but I'm a tad nervous about all the legalities involved. Most of the non-USA teachers/performers at my event I've done some version of trade with, but I doubt that would fly with a government visa issue.

I do know that proximity has a lot to do with who I hire too. I love to have a wide range of teachers from various areas of the country, but it gets expensive to fly someone to Vegas from the east coast let alone Egypt or somewhere else. I wouldn't be lying if I said that when I find a headliner in California that I'm happier about it. Still, I'm lucky that Vegas is a major hub.

Sometimes I'm slightly envious of places like San Fransisco, which have a plethora of well known famous folks. I think that having access to so much talent in your backyard must be so much easier than what I have to go through to pull off the Intensive.

However, I should be clear that Vegas has a lot of amazing local talent that isn't known around the world partly because you can make a living as a dancer here and not have to leave town. Tons of amazing talent in Vegas...just not tons of famous belly dancers (yet). So I see my job as creating the "draw" by who I hire to headline, but I trust my local teachers to be the "deliver".