Thread: How to become "famous"....

So, I was contemplating the "overcharging" thread and the discussion on being willing to ask for what you are worth/self-promotion/marketing...and I was reminded of an interesting experience I had recently.

The background:
As some of you may realize, I organize the Las Vegas Intensive. It's a little home-grown event that has grown into a much larger event over the last 7 years. I spend a fair amount of money advertising the event and work hard to have a balance of local, visiting, and well-known instructors at the event. I have over 35 instructors. Everyone gets paid, but it is only the "headliners" that get the whole enchilada: airfare, food, tons of money. This is because a) it's not realistic for my budget to pay the expenses for everyone, and 2) it's the headliners that are the "draw" to the event.

The question:
So what makes a person qualified to be a "headliner"?

For myself...this "je ne sais quoi" is the element of being seen. It's the name-recognition that I am paying for. I want quality instructors. Don't get me wrong. That is obviously important. But it's much more than that. What I am looking for is the "buzz" (bhuz?--haha) surrounding an individual that will attract people to the event. In essence...it's their "fame".

In 2010, Aradia of Las Vegas will be headlining at the Intensive. This is the first year that I have had a local teacher become a headliner. I'm very happy to have her headlining the event, because this event (for me) is partly to support our local community.

Aradia has taught at the Intensive nearly every year since its inception. In fact, the entire event grew out of a conversation I had with her years and years ago. So, why has it taken me 8 years to feature a local as a headliner?

To be fair, when I started this event, there weren't headliners. That didn't happen until 2007 when I included Suhaila in line up. But the bigger reason is that (imho) there wasn't anyone from Las Vegas that was getting regular exposure on a National level.

In my mind, this has absolutely nothing to do with talent. There are tons of amazing local teachers in Vegas. This city is amazing in that regard. You can make a great living here as a dancer and never have to travel to another city. You don't need the element of "fame" to put food on your table.

But if your goal is to travel and to get seen, you need to do a fair amount of self promotion to do that. Aradia has done a tremendous job of promoting herself. This is a compliment, not a criticism. She has taken her career seriously enough to believe she is worthy of recognition. She has advertised and promoted herself, created videos & music to sell, and invested in a website. She has done the things it takes to get seen and noticed. And she has fine tuned her teaching so that she improves her skills on a regular basis. ...AND Aradia ASKED to be a headliner. She's the only local who has ever directly asked.

There are other local teachers that are equally as talented. And there has been some discussion about why Aradia is headlining and not one of the other local instructors.

For me...it's because she's FAMOUS. (At least, she's getting there.) She has a fan base and she self-promotes. It's hard work to produce a large multi-day event. When I am looking at people to hire, it definitely is an incentive when the individual I am considering promotes the events they are attending. (duh...it's more advertising for me).

These days I get approached by many people who want to teach at my event. I am always impressed at every single person that is willing to take a risk and ask to be involved. I know how hard it is to say "look at me!!" But I am also so busy that I generally don't have time to scour the country looking for candidates.

When I get approached, the first thing I ask myself is "Have I heard of this person?" If I haven't, then the likelihood of them being a headliner is pretty slim. However, there are still opportunities to teach at my event, so I generally entertain the possibility of them teaching (assuming the schedule isn't full already--and yes, 2010 is nearly booked already unless you are a musician or music teacher).

So how would I have heard of someone? Well...I look at the Bhuz ads, ads on other websites, articles, magazines, fan pages, etc. If your name is in front of me several times, then I take notice. If there is enough buzz, then I might just call you to be a headliner.

Brad Dosland, of Taboo Media, once started a discussion on tribe about "Draw vs. Deliver". Draw is what attracts people to your event, Deliver is what keeps people coming back. For me..."draw" is the element of fame that I need my headliners to have. Deliver is what I need the rest of the instructors to offer.

As a professional dancer with aspirations to be travelling the globe teaching and dancing...are you working on both aspects of this? We all know that you need to develop your skill set. This would be your deliver. But what are you doing to promote your "draw"? Do you have a website? An email list? Do you advertise yourself and the events you are attending? Are you willing to pay your own expenses to a few things so you can develop more of a name for yourself? Does the words "self-promotion" make your skin crawl?

ok...I've ranted on long enough, but I sincerely hope this starts a useful conversation. Or at least provides some food for thought.

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

... Aradia has done a tremendous job of promoting herself. This is a compliment, not a criticism. She has taken her career seriously enough to believe she is worthy of recognition. She has advertised and promoted herself, created videos & music to sell, and invested in a website. She has done the things it takes to get seen and noticed. And she has fine tuned her teaching so that she improves her skills on a regular basis. ...AND Aradia ASKED to be a headliner. She's the only local who has ever directly asked.

Wow - seems like lot of confidence is number one in making yourself famous. I guess my question would be how much stuff (years experience, DVD's...) does on need to be considered "big" or is it just an matter of having a large audience base?

I've been performing and teaching for a while -got a website and a DVD. But, I wouldn't consider myself "famous" -"notable" perhaps.

From a student's perspctive, I tend to go for the subject and/or style being taught in a workshop. Then I would check out who is teaching and thier background. I have even gone to conferences were I've shuned the flashy headliner's workshop for the little known instructor, because he/she was teaching something I felt I needed to learn.

Originally Posted by audie

Wow - seems like lot of confidence is number one in making yourself famous. I guess my question would be how much stuff (years experience, DVD's...) does on need to be considered "big" or is it just an matter of having a large audience base?

Audie, I don't think that it is necessarily a matter of x number of years or x size of audience base.

I guess all I am really trying to suggest here is that part of what it takes to develop the "draw" aspect of your career is self-promotion. I've had people suggest to me that as an organizer, I'm one of the people who decides who becomes well-known & advertised. I think it is the other way around. I hire the people who have already created a buzz about themselves. (I also hire people who don't have a buzz as well...but for this conversation, I'm just talking about headliners.")

I also agree that sometimes it's the less well-known teachers who have such amazing things to share. This, however, would be what I consider the "deliver". They have the skills to make sure that my attendees have a rocking experience at the event.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people put themselves out there so much that they become famous just because people have heard of them, but they are not necessarily good at what they do at all.

I have taken workshops with and seen performances (live) of "famous" dancers who I have been less than impressed with (Aradia is NOT one of these, of course!). Some I have actually thought were downright not good! But they are so good at marketing, they get the big slots as "headliners" or workshop instructors, just based on their recognizability.

I'm not sure what the solution for that is, it's just an observation of mine.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people put themselves out there so much that they become famous just because people have heard of them, but they are not necessarily good at what they do at all.

I have taken workshops with and seen performances (live) of "famous" dancers who I have been less than impressed with (Aradia is NOT one of these, of course!). Some I have actually thought were downright not good! But they are so good at marketing, they get the big slots as "headliners" or workshop instructors, just based on their recognizability.

I'm not sure what the solution for that is, it's just an observation of mine.

I fully agree with you. In that instance, I would say that they had draw, but no deliver. As an organizer, it the reason I ask for recommendations. Ha! It's always a balance, is it not? You need both. Draw and deliver.

I don’t think it’s a question of x years of experience either...

I've noticed a trend or a "steps to follow" method in order to become "famous". A lot of the dancers that are considered "famous" are the ones that have adds on all the websites, in all the magazines, are features on DVDs and have there pictures used on album covers...
A lot of these "famous" girls have an amazing talent for BD but others don't.

Some famous girls self-promote, some get promoted by other and unfortunately some girls you will never hear about them because they don’t have the money for the ads and all or don’t have the connexions...

I’m guessing that in order to be famous you have to put your name everywhere out there and that, some times can be very expensive and time consuming.

It's mostly how you pimp (excuse the term) yourself out. If you keep hyping yourself up then people believe the hype. Connections are important, as are resources at your fingertips. I mean how many dancers have slick professional produced DVDs that leave us scratching our heads wondering "them?"

I think the important thing is not actually believing the hype yourself. Some of my favorite "famous" dancers and people on the scene were humble and kind in real life, not expecting anything in return for their "fame."

Another way to get famous is to do something so weird, so out of left field or so original that people can't stop talking about you.

Occasionally I've seen dancers who deeserve the praise and accolades they recieve but on the most part bellydance "fame" confuses me and holds no allure.

I think that there are 2 categories, one based on advertising and one based on word of mouth.

There are those that will advertise and market and pay buckets to get their name out there. That's good. That's smart. That's business. That'll get the results they want.

Others use word of mouth and their reputation. Yes, this takes time and years of exposure, but when you get to a certain level, advertising is really not necessary anymore.

My hubby is quite famous and teaches around the world, but has done no advertising on his own (except major festivals) for over 10 years or so. Why? Because his reputation is that good. I know I sound really egoistic right now, but it really is. We have to constantly tell organisations that, unfortunately, hubby is already booked for such and such date. We're working on his 2011 calendar right now, and only have a handful of dates left open for 2010.

Disclaimer, the organisations who sponsor him do have advertisements up, so you will see those.

Originally Posted by xodinahox

I think that there are 2 categories, one based on advertising and one based on word of mouth.

There are those that will advertise and market and pay buckets to get their name out there. That's good. That's smart. That's business. That'll get the results they want.

Others use word of mouth and their reputation. Yes, this takes time and years of exposure, but when you get to a certain level, advertising is really not necessary anymore.

I agree with you 100%, Odina! You explain the point (or rather, both points) perfectly :)

Originally Posted by xodinahox

My hubby is quite famous and teaches around the world, but has done no advertising on his own (except major festivals) for over 10 years or so. Why? Because his reputation is that good. I know I sound really egoistic right now, but it really is. We have to constantly tell organisations that, unfortunately, hubby is already booked for such and such date. We're working on his 2011 calendar right now, and only have a handful of dates left open for 2010.

Disclaimer, the organisations who sponsor him do have advertisements up, so you will see those.

OOOooo, now I gotta know: Who is your Hubby? Is he a bhuzzer, too?? If not, can I see vids of his dancing (preferrably dueting w/YOU???..g.:)

Originally Posted by xodinahox

I think that there are 2 categories, one based on advertising and one based on word of mouth.

There are those that will advertise and market and pay buckets to get their name out there. That's good. That's smart. That's business. That'll get the results they want.

Others use word of mouth and their reputation. Yes, this takes time and years of exposure, but when you get to a certain level, advertising is really not necessary anymore.

I fully agree with this. And as an additional caveat, probably a bit of both is ideal.

The "Million Dollar question"...
Welp I think there are many avenues to "get there" as stated above. As many of us have seen there are "famous" dancers that IMO shouldn't be famous because instead of spending thier time working on what people are paying them for, the dance, they are masters of promotion instead of masters of the dance. So unfortunaltly I partially agree that part of becoming famous might mean not having much to back what you are marketing. It is very sad.
We as consumers, since thats what we are when we pay for workshops etc, should question ones ability/education/experience. We don't blindly go out and purchase a car or TV! The ONLY reason why this is working is because we as consumers let it and are creating a marketing monster.
Now I am not saying this is ALWAYS the case nor am I saying it doesn't exist in other businesses. It is just more rampant recently with the explosion of the rapid comunication and oversatturation in the dance right now.
Just because it exists doesn't make it right. In the end let YOUR dance speak for itself for that ultimatley is what you are selling and will be the ONLY longevity you will have in your "fame". This partially means spending some time on marketing, but also spend time on your product!
Sorry for the partial rant, its one of my soapboxes right now! ;-)
xoxo,
-NJ

I would also suggest reading Hadia's article that touches on this topic: Hadia's New Site Click on "The Industry of Bellydance".
It was also printed in Zahgareet this year I believe.

Aradia is an awesome example. My boyfriend and I were in Vegas last week. I had the pleasure of seeing her perform at Marrakech after I took a private lesson with her. And she's one of those dancers who actually exceeds the hype, and deserves every iota of success she's earned. I know she works her a$$ off and I admire her for it. Takes a hustler to know one

Has anyone noticed that the BDSS hype has died down hugely this year? I do think longevity is key. Trends in the BD community are transient, and BDers are becoming more suspicious toward gimmicks. A truly great dancer, IMO, should have the ability to evolve with the current trends while retaining a signature style. In my conversations with Aradia, I discovered that she's widely versed in Turkish, cabaret, Lebanese and Egyptian style. Aziza's another classic dancer who is very versatile. I find that once you've taken one workshop with a BDSS or one of the tribal fusionistas du jour, you've pretty much taken 'em all. On the other hand, you can take 12 workshops with Aradia and learn something new.

I have no ambition to become anything but Connecticut-famous. Even performing in NY or RI is too much of a pain for me. But I think any dancer who wants to be well-known, whether locally or internationally, owes it to herself to promote herself. Don't wait for somebody else to throw you a bone or make you famous. Yesterday's tactics simply don't work the way they used to. If you build it, they will come.

Back when I first started dancing, workshops were rare and special events. If you were lucky enough to live in a bustling dance community, you might have one or two workshops available to you per year.

There was no youtube, and not much in the way of performance videos available, and very little internet activity. You read about some dancers in magazines, and there were a few who had instructional videos out.

But mostly you depended on your local organizer. If she said someone was good, and hired them, you hoped she was right. And, frankly, unless the instructor was REALLY bad, you didn't have enough experience TAKING classes to know the difference much. LOL. If there was a workshop, we went!

Today we're much more discerning. Workshops and videos are EVERYWHERE competing for our dollars and attention.

An instructor coming in to teach needs to be able to bring bodies into the classroom. Those bodies are only going to come if they believe this instructor can make them better dancers. People won't come just because there's a workshop any more. We have to have seen the person dance, maybe even had a taste of their teaching style.

So, it helps if:

- they have youtube clips out there SO good that they've gone viral

- they're on more than one compilation video and consistently rock. (By Dancers for Dancers, IAMED, etc)

- they have brilliant instructional videos on the market.

- they teach workshops that people can't stop raving about afterwards.

- they've come to my town to *attend* workshops and performed in the show at least a couple of times, and they impressed us with their lovely personality during class and their dancing blew us away.

If any of the above are true, then I'll hear about them, on Bhuz or on Facebook or from dance friends, eventually.

Advertising doesn't really do much for me.

I just read that article really true and well written to the honest point.
I love Aradia, taken her drum solo workshop at a cruise, it was advanced for most, but I enjoy the challenge.

Originally Posted by mmouse1534

The ONLY reason why this is working is because we as consumers let it and are creating a marketing monster.

I see it as a Catch-22. I don't think there would be such a thing as a marketing monster if our community's most talented dancers marketed themselves as vigorously as the rest

One problem I see is that a lot of talented, experienced dancers put too much faith in word-of-mouth. They know their dancing is good. Their local peers do, too. (Their favorite catchphrase always tends to be "truth in advertising!" or "the proof is in the pudding!") This is certainly a viable strategy on a local level, where everybody knows who you are - but if an up-and-comer from the West Coast came to my town on the same weekend as any of the BDSS, most folks here would choose the latter. Even if the "unknown" had an awesome list of credentials and a gorgeous style. Sad....but if name recognition weren't important, than why would ginormous corporations like McDonald's and Wal-Mart continue to pump billions of dollars into advertising each year? After all, everybody knows what a Big Mac is, by now, and what kind of prices Wal-Mart is known for.

The marketplace is changing. Our communication modes are changing. Whether we like these changes or not, I believe it's time to adapt. At least, that's the most efficient way to level the playing field so far.

lauren, i think you are right that this is what makes participants go to the workshop/event. especially the ones that arent like us cruising the bellydance websites/seeing the adds. something else makes them come to class or not.

but is it also what makes the sponsors choose someone?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

So, it helps if:

- they have youtube clips out there SO good that they've gone viral

- they're on more than one compilation video and consistently rock. (By Dancers for Dancers, IAMED, etc)

- they have brilliant instructional videos on the market.

- they teach workshops that people can't stop raving about afterwards.

- they've come to my town to *attend* workshops and performed in the show at least a couple of times, and they impressed us with their lovely personality during class and their dancing blew us away.

If any of the above are true, then I'll hear about them, on Bhuz or on Facebook or from dance friends, eventually.

Advertising doesn't really do much for me.

and is this question different for the US than the european market. we dont have the compilation dvds for starters!

I don't think there would be such a thing as a marketing monster if our community's most talented dancers marketed themselves as vigorously as the rest

Sometimes that is because the dancers in question are busy....

... wait for it....

... dancing professionally, teaching and having a little bit of personal life.

Let's take Cassandra, who I've worked with several times due to her being "famous". Does she deserve being famous? Hell yes. Is she as famous as some? Hell no. WHY is she famous? Probably because 25 years ago, some nice ladies attended one of her workshops and fell over backwards and thought "we want her all the time! But we can't have her! Let's bring her to us once a year!" And so Oasis was born.

Oasis markets pretty hard but despite that I'd say it doesn't have anything like the same uptake it a) should, for what it is and b) used to have.

I've been thinking that the people who are losing out at te moment are, in fact, the highly skilled, long-standing practitioners of American belly dance, Egyptified or not. Today I see two things advertised to the North American market - intensive festival type things with lots of Egyptian stars (yay!) and intensive festival type things with 100 percent fusion/tribal dancers. Oh and BDSS. Yet a while ago Hadia was talking about quitting teaching.

And yet again, are these women failures? Are they struggling? They're still teaching, performing, doing workshops around the world. They're in their 50s. They don't market aggressively, they don't have all the pies, but they do seem to be doing all right. I guess I wish they got more respect, though.

How to get famous?

People have to know who you are. And they have to care.

Basically there have to be enough positive/meaningful encounters either personally, virtually, or by second-hand chat that you remember who the dancer is, and become interested in her. I can't become impressed with someone until I remember who she is. This is why media/online bhuz and advertising helps so much. It doesn't replace talent, skill, or personal style, though.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

And yet again, are these women failures? Are they struggling? They're still teaching, performing, doing workshops around the world. They're in their 50s. They don't market aggressively, they don't have all the pies, but they do seem to be doing all right. I guess I wish they got more respect, though.

Yes, but bear in mind, those dancers have decades of experience on a lot of today's up-and-comers. Their word-of-mouth success is often the result of 30+ years of being out in the community.

I think today's rising stars face a different set of challenges: a saturated scene, new developments in marketing communications, a different vision of success. What worked for Cassandra might not work for a young, fresh-faced dancer who is shooting for "stardom" today.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

lauren, i think you are right that this is what makes participants go to the workshop/event. especially the ones that arent like us cruising the bellydance websites/seeing the adds. something else makes them come to class or not.

but is it also what makes the sponsors choose someone?

If the sponsor is a smart businessperson, then she is choosing instructors who her local dancers will pay to take a workshop from.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

If the sponsor is a smart businessperson, then she is choosing instructors who her local dancers will pay to take a workshop from.

You know...I was thinking that this is another aspect that is important to consider. A sponsor needs to know their market. There are plenty of people on the East Coast that are fabulous, but their "name" means next to nothing in Vegas. These days, the Intensive is large enough that the event itself is a draw, which affords me a bit more leeway in choosing teachers based on deliver and not just draw.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I see it as a Catch-22. I don't think there would be such a thing as a marketing monster if our community's most talented dancers marketed themselves as vigorously as the rest

One problem I see is that a lot of talented, experienced dancers put too much faith in word-of-mouth. They know their dancing is good. Their local peers do, too. (Their favorite catchphrase always tends to be "truth in advertising!" or "the proof is in the pudding!") This is certainly a viable strategy on a local level, where everybody knows who you are - but if an up-and-comer from the West Coast came to my town on the same weekend as any of the BDSS, most folks here would choose the latter. Even if the "unknown" had an awesome list of credentials and a gorgeous style. Sad....but if name recognition weren't important, than why would ginormous corporations like McDonald's and Wal-Mart continue to pump billions of dollars into advertising each year? After all, everybody knows what a Big Mac is, by now, and what kind of prices Wal-Mart is known for.

The marketplace is changing. Our communication modes are changing. Whether we like these changes or not, I believe it's time to adapt. At least, that's the most efficient way to level the playing field so far.

I knew I was going to like your responses on this thread.

yes, i think so too.

my big dream with my events is that that does evolve towards a situation where i can bring in "less famous" people, and my students will come, because they trust that i'll bring in something good, for having done so in the past. i love working with people who are lesser known, but that i've seen somewhere, met, seen dance, were recommended to me, and i know they'll do something my students/local community will like.

and my number one rule in hiring people is "are they easy to work with"'. i would never ever book a headliner that i've heard of is difficult, diva, whatever. no matter how big their draw. notoriously difficult, then never mind. that's word of mouth too.

what's interesting is both sponsoring events AND traveling to teach myself. i learn both ways. I try to pick up what sponsors did that i enjoyed, and i'm learning what dancers need first hand, (ha: laundry facilities).

so i think that depending on the events, there are many criteria sponsors use, more than the draw effect?

i know my own number one is being easy to work with, and two is: do i feel like taking the workshops myself? events are such hard work, and they dont make me any real money, so i at least want a good workshop myself.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

If the sponsor is a smart businessperson, then she is choosing instructors who her local dancers will pay to take a workshop from.

What worked for Cassandra might not work for a young, fresh-faced dancer who is shooting for "stardom" today.

I think what I was getting at is that dancers like Cassandra have been far too busy being dancers to work at becoming "stars". Maybe a young fresh faced dancer ought to just, you know, work as a dancer. Or should she be cranking out high end niche marketed DVDs the second she can shimmy?

It is true that today the BD market is largely other BDers, but, you know, what's wrong with being a DANCER if you want to be a dancer?

My ballet teacher danced with the Joffrey for eight years, the New York Met for several after that, the Miami City Ballet, Sydney Ballet and a European company I can't remember the name of offhand. He's not famous. He is, however, awesome, and I wish I could have had the opportunity to see him dance before he retired. Having said that, just following his barre is lovely and inspiring. His ports de bras are just beautiful, beautiful.

What's wrong with being a dancer? Just being a *dancer*? I am so sick of "we're so great/look at how great we are" bollocks. There is room in this dance form for everyone, for every level, for every *kind* of dance and for every kind of dancer. We don't all have to be stars.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

everything she said

yes!

Originally Posted by Lesgemini_Zafirah

I agree with you 100%, Odina! You explain the point (or rather, both points) perfectly :)



OOOooo, now I gotta know: Who is your Hubby? Is he a bhuzzer, too?? If not, can I see vids of his dancing (preferrably dueting w/YOU???..g.:)

Momo Kadous :) ... he's a very anti-computer person, so you'll not see him on any forums. I can barely get him to read his facebook messages and emails!