Thread: Help me understand the BellyDance Evolution fee structure...

The way I read it:

Folks PAY $40 to AUDITION for a chance to perform in one dance gala in one city during a week-long Festival.

If they are selected to perform in this gala, it would be best to live in that city because Bellydance Evolution pays no transport, housing or food.

If they are selected to perform in this gala as part of the troupe, the costumes will be supplied, but they are responsible for any necessary alternations.

If they are assigned a soloist dance, they must supply their own costume.

Rehearsals may begin at home, via video. No compensation for rehearsal time.

Rehearsals will begin one week before the one-week Event, and run 7 hours a day. No compensation.

Rehearsals may run during the Festival. No compensation, other than the opportunity to attend any workshops that don't conflict with the rehearsals. No idea as to the amount of overlap.

Performers receive $75 to perform, as well as 'exposure' , 'opportunity to participate in future shows' and 'opportunity to perform with top artists.'

Will someone in the know please explain to me why the fee structure for the Belly dance Evolution gala (starting with audition fees and proceeding up and through the $75 performance fee) is okay? Ethical? Tolerated? I'm missing a lot of info before I can agree that this is a Good Thing.


Contrast this with the Dancer's Alliance fee structure:
Dancer's Alliance

LIVE SHOWS (AGENCY FEES APPLY ON TOP OF THESE RATES)

***REHEARSALS***
FULL DAY REHEARSAL (8 HOURS) $250/DAY
(ANYTHING OVER 8 HRS = TIME AND A HALF)

HALF DAY REHEARSAL (4 HOURS) $175/DAY
(ANYTHING OVER 4 HOURS = TIME AND A HALF)

***SHOW***
$500/SHOW AND $150 PER ADDITIONAL SHOW WITH IN THAT SAME DAY

Wow - since i hadn't planned on auditioning, I hadn't even looked up the compensation. I have to admit, if that's the package ($75 for all of those hours of work and performance), then it doesn't seem like a great deal. Is there any other type of in-kind compensation that might make up for it?

Good luck to everyone who decides to do it! I hope it turns out great.

So by the time you pay your audition fee, plus your transportation and food, and turn down other paying gigs....you've basically lost money, rather than earning anything.

And "exposure?" C'mon.

No, sir, I'm not a fan.

you've basically lost money, rather than earning anything

This seems to be designed to take advantage of some very stage hungry dancers. 7 days of work for free? I guess you could think of it as a week long intensive with Jilliana without the workshop fee if you really wanted to do this.

I had no idea. That really changes the whole thing.

Originally Posted by anala

you've basically lost money, rather than earning anything

This seems to be designed to take advantage of some very stage hungry dancers. 7 days of work for free? I guess you could think of it as a week long intensive with Jilliana without the workshop fee if you really wanted to do this.

This is exactly the impression I got.

For dancers with day jobs that have to take vacation, the time lost can be a huge opportunity cost as well. Using half a year's worth of vacation on rehearsals may prevent them from travelling to a seminar or workshop intensive that would have helped them grow as individual performers.

Maurazebra, thanks for pointing this out, that does seem outrageous. It's one thing to perform in a gala show and they say you have to pay your transportation, that's common with most gala/video based show, but to pay to audition?? I don't think so, I auditioned for Cirque du Soliel years ago, and they didn't charge me to audition!

Maybe there is something we don't know about that would make this reasonable? Aren't auditions through video submission?

Just thinking - maybe the audition fee is based on experiences with the BDSS auditions? If auditioning with a fairly desirable project is open-for-all, then it could happen that they will be flooded, kinda like open auditions for American Idol. Maybe the reasoning is that if there is an audition fee, that won't happen, and it saves everybody (including those who are serious about the project) a lot of time?

And, what is the typical compensation for guest dancers with the BDSS? (I know that the BD Evolution project is has many differences, but that could also be a factor.)

I don't know about any of the rest of it ... but the audition thing ... when you pay to audition (if I remember correctly from the time I read it) you get a choreography download from Jillina that you are supposed to learn and video tape along with your own dance ... I know one of the FAQs was "can I just pay the fee and get the choreo and not audition" so I think they are justifying it as paying for the choreo and not making it available for free to just anyone who wants to download it online. ... not endorsing everything or anything - like I said - don't know much about the rest ... but I actually wasn't surprised by that one part ... otherwise it could be taken advantage of as kinda like her offering up an instructional choreography video for free to anyone who wanted it - interested in auditioning or not - due to the internet based nature of it all.

I've interviewed one of the winners of the LA auditions and she told me that it is indeed a lot of hard work with little compensation in money. But I remember a thread a while back about IAMED not paying performers for their show because it was an honor to be asked to perform. It's not uncommon for dancers to ask to participate and pay for their own travel expenses/preparation time.

Let's face it, when I take workshops with Jillina I pay 40 euro's per hour. This way you get seven days of training for free, that's almost 50 hours, the equivalent of 2000 euros/3000 USD.
She is a big name and her show and training are as valuable to your development as a dancer as other people's workshops and classes.

The auditions are meant as an opportunity for relative unknown talented dancers to gain experience with a professional show, receive intensive training to help them get further in their career and get their name out. If you feel you should receive financial compensation for your time and you don't need/want the experience and exposure, you should not audition.

Jillina is taking a huge risk by offering training for free to a dancer whom she doesn't know. There is no sure way of telling wether the dancers will be ready to perform after a week of training.

I actually helped Jillina out with the BDE festival in Los Angeles and am part of the future festivals.

One thing to remember is that it's a competition, and as a competition fee it's quite low compared to other competition fees. What you are getting for the $40 fee is an instructional video of one of Jillina's choreographies and a mp3 download of the music. You are also given the rights to use this choreography and music for your own performances or classes if you want. Your video is added to the BDE website for more exposure and stays on the website even if you don't win. We actually had quite a few people ask if they could pay the fee to get the choreography and music even though they didn't want to compete.

Yes Jillina wanted local dancers for the festivals because this is a brand new project that she is funding herself. This is not a BDSS production and she doesn't have a BDSS budget, its all coming out of her pocket and she knew she couldn't afford to pay for everyones flights, hotels, meals etc. If it's a local dancer then the dancers are NOT dishing out a bunch of their own money, because Jillina wouldn't want someone to lose a bunch of money to do this festival. She also wanted to give unknown dancers the experience and chance to work in a large show that they might not get otherwise. Someone like Aradia who already has an established career isn't who the competition is geared for. Of course Jillina would love to have someone like her, but she knows she cannot afford it at this stage and wouldn't expect someone like Aradia to want to participate.

(Hopefully in the future if BDE really takes off then she will be able to pay the dancers more money and all their expenses)

When she found out that dancers from around the world were competing for the LA location and were will to pay their own way if they were selected, she let them stay at her house so they didn't have to pay for a hotel. She bought everyone food everyday and really took care of these girls. There was a comment about them having to provide their OWN solo costume. IMO if I were given a solo, I would rather wear my own costume because I know I will be comfortable in it. That is why she says that. However if someone didn't have a solo costume (which some didn't) she did give them one to use in the show. She also bought everyone new dance shoes.

Another thing the competitors got was a free makeup lesson from a professional makeup artist that works on Theatre/Film & TV.

Yes it was alot of hard work for little compensation but all the experience we got, from the free training to the learning about lighting and how theaters work. To all the new people you got to meet and work with, to the being part of a truly unique show. There isn't a price to put on that. IMO

I came into this production to help Jillina out. I wasn't a competitor and I have worked with Jillina for almost 9 years with her Sahlala Dancers. I didn't expect to get paid, but I wanted to be a part of this production and work with dancers that I knew I wouldn't have another chance to work with. I ended dancing in the show and was offered a lead role for the future productions. I also ended up getting paid for the show (much more then I ever thought I would) and will have all my expenses paid for the future festivals.

Another one of the competitors traveled from Holland on her own, because she wanted to be part of the show. And she did such a great job that Jillina is setting up workshops for her in Spain and is talking about bringing her on the Europe tour.
So there is the opportunity to really grow and become a part of the main cast.

Sorry for the long email. But I wanted to give you an insiders viewpoint and let you know my experience with this production.

Hi there!

I agree with Mekyria. As someone who participated in the Los Angeles show, I can tell you that my personal reasons for doing it are in line with everything she said.

For me, it wasn't about money. I just knew that this show was going to be the next big thing to hit the bellydance community on a global scale...and I wanted to be a part of it.

I considered the week plus I spent learning the show part of my dance training...and, of course, doing a show of that scale in a theatre added to my performance experience.

I realize that not everyone has the luxury of being able to take a week off from work and not get paid. Because I live in L.A. and work mainly as a dancer, I was able to do some of my shows. However, after 7-8 hour rehearsals, I must admit, it was tiring.

Some of the other dancers who had been cast as part of the ensemble flew in from other countries on their own dime. Jillina was thrilled that these dancers wanted to be a part of the show so much that they were willing to fly in, however, she didn't necessarily expect this. The casting competitions are expected to draw in local dancers, but if someone wants to do the show badly enough that they are willing to travel for it, it's their choice...and it's quite welcome! But, it's definitely not expected of anyone.

Obviously there will be some people who are in positions in their dance careers in which they will refuse to do such extensive rehearsals without getting paid....and I get that. Ordinarily I wouldn't dance for free either, but I have exceptions to my rules. If I think that something will benefit me as a dancer and a professional, I will do it.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's a personal choice - one that won't be right nor possible for everyone. But there will definitely be some up and coming dancers out there who will be thrilled to have the opportunity no matter what the cost.

Originally Posted by anala

you've basically lost money, rather than earning anything

This seems to be designed to take advantage of some very stage hungry dancers. 7 days of work for free? I guess you could think of it as a week long intensive with Jilliana without the workshop fee if you really wanted to do this.

I think most people who auditioned thought of it as a workshop equivalent and an opportunity to do a pro-level project with Jillina. For your $40 you do get a choreography and some exposure on their website.

I think some belly dance competitions have similar fees, and not much feedback...dancers enter these as personal challenges to themselves, and if they "place" it looks good to other dancers. If you were asked to join Jillina's show, it would also look good to most other dancers. :)

I also think that this video competition is both more accessible to dancers who want to audition, and possibly more time-consuming for the dancer/director who is reviewing their auditions, than a live audition. There's no airline tickets/travel time/hotel/parking/food costs that would be associated with an audition in a large city center. All the dancer needs is a friend with a video camera, and an internet connection (and $40 entry fee). She can even tape it again and again until she's happy with her audition video - much less scary than a one-shot solo audition or a cattle call with other dancers. The person reviewing the tapes must do them one at a time, though...there's no screening out the dreamers from the quality dancers, like there would be in a group choreography audition section.

The $75 compensation for performance is basically a stipend - it isn't supposed to compensate you for all the time you spent rehearsing, it is meant as token recognition for your talent and dedication and to (hopefully) keep you from starving to death. If you are making $200-$500 per show at home, then traveling to work with Jillina is definitely a financial loss. It's up to the individual dancer to decide whether the educational/professional gain makes up for the hard costs and opportunity costs of rehearsing for and dancing in Jillina's show.

Hi,

I auditioned and was cast in the Los Angeles show and I can truly say it was one of the best experiences in my dance career. As a dancer, my art is not all about money. It is about learning, experiencing and expressing myself artistically. Being a part of such a worthwhile project with such wonderfully talented individuals gave me something money cannot buy. However, if you want to look at it in a more business-like way, you could take into account the experience gained by working with some of the top choreographers and performers in the field. The large number of beautiful choreographies I learned and performed as well as the incredible staging gave me wonderful inspiration for my own future creations. Observing the professional and efficient way in which the show was put together in such a short time was also invaluable for putting together my own future theatre shows.

IMO, Jillina went above and beyond in doing all she could to ease the economic burden on the dancers who so willingly came to participate on their own dime. I saw her find free accomodations for those who came from out of town either offering her home or the home of a friend. She provided an abundant supply of food in the form of healthy snacks and catered lunches every day! Costumes were provided, dance shoes were gifted as well as professional stage make-up lessons and professional photography from the show!

While not for everyone, I would not hesitate to recommend participating in this event to any up-and-coming dancer out there. I had a wonderful time, met some wonderful people and enhanced my art in numerous unexpected and intangible ways.

Cheers!

~Vilia~

It is good to have feedback from insiders. But let me repeat that not only are people paying for an audition (with or without side perks), but one of the things any 'real' dancer would expect as a side benefit from a week of rehearsal for a big show is lots of training and insights into the business and interaction with professionals. Nevertheless, as per my link to Dancer's Alliance in the original post, the 'real' dancers expect to be paid. It distresses me to see that something like this, which could be considered a top-tier performance opportunity, pays less than the gig at the local gyro shop.

I don't buy into the wording. If Julina is doing it this way because of money constraints, come clean and say so. Yes, an audition is in a sense a competition. But in this case, it is a competition that leads to nothing else than the gala (there's no graduation from one level to another), so I call it an audition, not a competition. And yes, rehearsals are intense training, but when the goal is to perform in a show, it is called rehearsal and 'real' dancers are reimbursed for same.

I don't doubt that every one of you talented ladies who participated in Julina's previous event(s) had good reasons to do so and walked away with all that you said. Nevertheless -- Julina is an icon. A role model. What is she telling the younger dancers with this compensation structure? What is she telling future event producers? When Beyounce tried to hire a bunch of dancers for a video at less than the Dancer's Alliance rate (she claimed they'd be getting lots of exposure instead) the dance community on that side of the fence was vehement in their opposition. But us?

Yes, Julina is lovely, inspiring, talented, and a savvy lady. If I met her I'd be glad to shake her hand and thank her for her past efforts. But I don't think she's thought this evolution thing through. This is NOT the way to tell young aspiring belly dancers that they are 'real' dancers. IMO.

PS. The 2006 IAMED wasn't paying performers because it was 'an honor' to be asked to perform/ good exposure / good training. There were at least two, and maybe more, concerts being organized and most of the dancers were NOT going to end up with video contracts.

I think Jillina's whole project is great. If she wasn't charging for the auditions, she would be flooded. It's the same with a college- they charge you money just to apply! It weeds those out who look at it like, "well, why not?" It's smart and reasonable.

Give her a break. She just started this thing. As it gains momentum maybe it'll change. Even if it doesn't, it's a great opportunity for a lot of dancers. I know I'd give up my time for something that would help me excel. It's extra dance training that you don't have to pay for! Cut her some slack!

Quintina, thanks for posting! I love Jillina and she seems to be really sincere in her efforts. She also seems very professional. I doubt she would want any hardship for anyone
$40 does seem a little steep, maybe it should be a deposit and you get like $20 back or something...who knows?

I don't think it's the audition "fee" most people are concerned about, it's the idea of working on a project and rehearsing under conditions where other working dancers (i.e. - modern, hip hop, ballet, etc) would receive compensation as outlined by the Dancer's Alliance or other industry standard.

The casting director doesn't know all the auditioning dancers for those performances either, so I don't buy the whole "Jillina is so nice taking a risk on dancers who did well in the audition." In other dance forms, they just assume that if you're putting yourself out there for performance, you have the training to back it up and if you don't, it'll show in the audition. She didn't exactly pick 20 random women's names out of a hat. I would expect that if you're putting yourself out there as being at a level to do well in this audition and be in the show, you have the training and skills to deliver the performance expected by the people who hired you.

As for the rates, I just don't see why our "industry standard" seems to be "free" or "minimal amount for 'exposure'." You don't have to pay everyone's full expenses (lodging, meals, etc) plus a salary, but you should be able to pay your performer appropriately. In other shows, most performers don't get living expenses paid for unless they're on tour, but they get more than $75 for a week.

This is not Jillina bashing... I hate how any time anyone critiques anything it becomes an "us vs them" thing. I respect her as a business woman and think she's a fabulous dancer, but I personally feel that this show may do more to hurt the views of Oriental dance as a valuable "art form" within the world dance community.

I agree with Mary. The audition fee is not the problem, especially since you are allowed to take that choreography and use it as you like. But a full week of all-day rehearsals plus a high-profile show that pays less than an average set at the Schwarma House? You are literaly working for pennies per hour.

"It's good exposure" and "oh, we're just starting this so as it grows maybe we can pay you more" are exactly the same lines restaurant owners use to try to get us to work for falafel and tips. How is it better coming from one of our own, highly respected dancers?

Without performers, there is no show. If there's no money to pay the performers, maybe it's not time to put on the show yet. I respect what Jillina is trying to do, but let's look at it from a business context: If you decided to open a Falafel Hut but you don't have enough money to pay your wait staff, they're not going to stick around to improve their table-waiting skills until you're able to pay them a fair wage. They will leave, and the restaurant will fail. That's not good for the owner, and it's not good for the wait staff. How is dance any different?

Let's not kid ourselves--this is a business venture for Jillina. That's great, and I applaud her for it. Her end goal is to try to make a profit. Also great! But you don't get to pay sweatshop rates to the performers who help you turn a profit, even if you have invested your own money upfront.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

as per my link to Dancer's Alliance in the original post, the 'real' dancers expect to be paid. It distresses me to see that something like this, which could be considered a top-tier performance opportunity, pays less than the gig at the local gyro shop.

I think the Dancer's Alliance link is very interesting. The pay scales for fittings, rehearsals and work days are higher than the industry standard for "real" dancers. I didn't see on the site, but are these union dancers, or non-union? Non is not paid remotely that much. And if you are union(SAG or AFTRA) then you are also paying thousands of dollars in union fees per year.

It also seems to be geared toward video shoots, commercials, and films, not stage shows. Less of a time commitment.

When I worked in the LA Opera production of Tannhauser, we were paid $28.50 per hour for fittings and rehearsals, and $250 per performance. We also had to pay AGMA (American Guild of Musical Artists) $500 in union fees. It boiled down to making about $1500 for 2 and a half months of work.
And that was the Opera, a professional artists' institution that receives funding, not a self-produced-by-one-individual show.

I think what Jillina's doing is great.

Yes, but now you are part of the Union and if you continue to work on Union shows, you will continue to get their benefits. Also, SAG and AFTRA - most of the time SAG shows will pay the performers fee in addition to the standard fee.

Yes, non-union gets paid much less, but still not free. If you look on Craigslist, the video shoots which are paying will pay at least $75 a day.

{{{HUGS}}}

I can assure you that pay scale for non television/movie/film work is not nearly close to the rates listed on the Dancer Aliance website.

Tahira, many of those 75 dollar video shoots are for video "girls" not worth 75 bucks an hour no less a day. My dignity is worth way more the 75 dollars.

While I don't think Jillina had a fair pay scale I wouldn't rake her over the coals like this. Think about how many BD troupes out there pay to reherse and pay troupe fees and space rentals.

Paying to travel is nothing new. People pay their own way to festivals competitions and events all the time. Dancers pay to travel to auditions (even non-bd dancers.) If someone from a foriegn country CHOOSES to audition knowing full well that they will have to suck up the cost then that's their problem not Jillina's.

75 bucks ain't grand but I do think the "exposure" is on par with winning a BD competition, many of which charge upwards of 200.00 to participate in.

Students who participate in big festival shows with their teachers pay to take the classes/rehearse to prepare, might pay for all or part of their costuming (or not, it just depends), and get paid nothing in the end. The experience is the "compensation" in this case. But we have to remember that in this "big festival prep" case we're talking student-level folks; the students might be advanced, but they're students just the same.

I could very well be wrong, but it appears that the primary bone of contention is that the Evolution process seems to be geared toward working dancers -- professional dancers or professional-level-even-if-not-gigging dancers.

"Big Dance Festival" and "BD Evolution" are different animals to many people, so I understand the conundrum.

Deborah

It's very interesting to read the arguments for all of those who are "in favor" of this fee/pay structure....those are the same arguments we hear from clients and restaurant owners all the time (it's great exposure! it's a great experience! one day, when we have built this business, you will be able to get paid more!) I am sure that all of you who are saying this is a great thing would NOT be saying the same if Joe Falafel tried those rationales to get you to work for pennies at his restaurant. Why is it ok just because it's Jillina?

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

It's very interesting to read the arguments for all of those who are "in favor" of this fee/pay structure....those are the same arguments we hear from clients and restaurant owners all the time (it's great exposure! it's a great experience! one day, when we have built this business, you will be able to get paid more!) I am sure that all of you who are saying this is a great thing would NOT be saying the same if Joe Falafel tried those rationales to get you to work for pennies at his restaurant. Why is it ok just because it's Jillina?

This.

Because everyone knows Jillina and it IS good exposure. Joe's falafel house is not comparable. One, I assume, would learn a lot more working with Jillina for a week than they would dancing a Joe's falafel house. When the DVD of the L.A. show comes out, those dancers will be getting some darn fine exposure.

Value is perception, and not everyone perceives value the same way. Some may see value in Jillina's project and some may not, both arguments are fair.

Two things seem unfair about this:

1) The experience and exposure may be worth it to some, but not everybody who auditions is going to get those benefits, so why should everyone pay?

2) The performers being asked to help fund the venture, but only getting a small flat rate payment. Under this arrangement, the producers have less financial risk, but they still keep all the profits, if there are any. If it was a case of "we don't know if we'll cover our costs, so please help out so this show can happen", I'd expect to get a specific percentage share of the profits (even if it was tiny) if they do make money.

Originally Posted by elljay

Because everyone knows Jillina and it IS good exposure. Joe's falafel house is not comparable. One, I assume, would learn a lot more working with Jillina for a week than they would dancing a Joe's falafel house. When the DVD of the L.A. show comes out, those dancers will be getting some darn fine exposure.

It has been nine months since we opened this thread. Can anyone report on any tangible monetary benefits that have accrued to dancers who won this opportunity for exposure? That is not a rhetorical question. Did the gamble on exposure-instead-of-pay payoff for anyone?