Thread: Pricing dependant on prop proficiency?

Someone asked me why, for example, if one dancer doesn't dance with a sword why doesn't she charge less than the one who does dance with a sword? This GP's thinking was the dancer not utilizing the prop must not be at the same level of proficiency/talent/ability there as someone who can & does work with sword (or any prop in question), so therefore shouldn't be charging the same rate as someone who does.


This was a new one on me, anyone gotten this or similar before? I firmly believe if you're taking paid gigs then you should be charging the going rate, not a discount because you don't work with a prop but other dancers do. If you don't think you're "worth" the going rate, then you shouldn't be taking paid gigs & undercutting.

I've occasionally heard of dancers adding an upcharge for shamadan or for using two props in one song (i.e. sword AND candles)...but overall, this is a new one to me.

And dare I say it? Sometimes, it actually takes more skill (or, perhaps, a different type of skill) to dance without a prop than to dance with one. And some of the most lackluster performances I've seen involved a dancer juggling 3-4 props in the span of a 5-minute song!

Does a bad actor get to charge more than a good actor if he can also sing?

We have all seen dancers who put on a really amazing show with veils. But where is the dancing?

Unfortunately, much of the Gp isn't able to discern the difference.

{{{HUGS}}}

I don't discount based on prop usage, but I do up-charge based on # of props requested in a show. For example, if you request certain props for your show, I include any 1 prop and finger cymbals in my regular show price. If someone specifically requests more props, then I add an additional charge just like I do when multiple costume changes are requested.

How this has worked in reality: If I charge $250 for a standard private party show, and the organizer asks that the show include sword, veil, isis wings, finger cymbals, and a couple of costume changes....then the price reflects the additional show complexity by going up because those things are beyond what I consider a standard show. :)

My view - charge more for additional complexity, not less for your standard. :)

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

And dare I say it? Sometimes, it actually takes more skill (or, perhaps, a different type of skill) to dance without a prop than to dance with one. And some of the most lackluster performances I've seen involved a dancer juggling 3-4 props in the span of a 5-minute song!

Definitely. The better the dancer, the less likely you are to see a performance that relies heavily on artistic props. (BTW, I don't consider finger cymbals to be in the same category as props that get waved/twirled/balanced/posed with primarily for visual effect.) Props are a funny thing. When used in the right context--as an enhancement to one's choreography--they are enchanting to watch, but in the hands of lesser performers, the prop can become a substitute for good dancing. Even balancing props, which obviously require a lot of training and skill, can overtake the performance and steal the show to the extent that they become more like circus tricks than a display of musical interpretation through movement. IMHO, if you just want quirky-but-skillful feats of entertainment, hire a juggler or a clown or a magician. Dancers are supposed to dance.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

IMHO, if you just want quirky-but-skillful feats of entertainment, hire a juggler or a clown or a magician. Dancers are supposed to dance.

I also think that the general public is not as jaded as we'd like to believe. Think back to the first time you saw a belly dancer. Odds are, she probably wasn't spinning poi while balancing a shamadan on her head and a sword on her hip, all while twirling like Petite Jamilla. Personally, before I began studying the dance, I was moved by the way belly dancers pulled off such seemingly superhuman moves in such an effortless, breezy manner. I like to think back to this whenever I'm tempted to pull out all the stops.

I still think zills, veils and swords have their place in the bellygram canon. But I also think we underestimate the power of "just plain dancing." Our dance must look so amazing to people who have never learned how to shimmy!

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I still think zills, veils and swords have their place in the bellygram canon. But I also think we underestimate the power of "just plain dancing." Our dance must look so amazing to people who have never learned how to shimmy!

Therein lies the rub. If you're not the sort of dancer who can put forth a performance that is capable of amazing an audience, it's tempting to load up on props, because they'll take up some of the slack for you. I'm not saying that there isn't skill or creative value in being able to walk around waving a sword in an artistically menacing fashion to a Solace record, but it requires a smidge less talent than being able to mesmerize an audience by dancing to a taqsim (something that a good dancer can do with or without the sword).

I certainly agree that artistic props have a place in the dance, and it's completely valid to request that your customers pay extra to have you prepare a more elaborate set and schlep more stuff to the gig. However there is a point where less knowledgeable customers fail to realize that a dancer who performs a gig with a barrage of props is the belly dancing equivalent of that vaudeville guy who could spin the plates on sticks. It's great that you can get all that going at once, but so what?

I certainly don't think someone who can dance with multiple props should charge more, but if clients have a request for a specific prop that we don't have or don't do, we may lose the business to another dancer who does. I have personally lost a couple of gigs where the client specifically requested dancing with fire/flames of some sort, and another where they wanted an entrance with Isis Wings.

People keep asking me if I can swallow fire while belly dancing.

"No."

"Are you sure?"

"Yes."

*Hopeful silence in case I change my mind.*

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Does a bad actor get to charge more than a good actor if he can also sing?

..l;,

Originally Posted by deelight

People keep asking me if I can swallow fire while belly dancing.

"No."

"Are you sure?"

like you were swallowing fire and didn't know it? or forgot? wtf?

ditto the using props to cover up bad dancing, but to dance WELL with props can take more skill. in addition to learning to dance with yourself, you gotta learn the way your different "partners" move and can be used, as well as any cultural nuances about them (don't start out wearing your veil for Arab audiences, what kind of music is traditional for assaya, etc) i can totally see why one would charge more for props, even outside of having to buy them and carry them around to the gig (and check fire codes etc.....) but i think expecting to charge LESS than average for not being able to use them is part of that thread "real bellydancers______" (real bellydancers can roll quarters, real bellydancers swallow fire, dance with swords, etc)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Does a bad actor get to charge more than a good actor if he can also sing?

Exactly.

Good thing GP doesn't get to set prices. We'd all be dancing in tassels with props galore for 3 hours straight in exchange for some falafel. ..l;,

Originally Posted by TexasRuya

Exactly.

Good thing GP doesn't get to set prices. We'd all be dancing in tassels with props galore for 3 hours straight in exchange for some falafel. ..l;,

In exchange for a dollar bill (taken from the teeth of course) and a smack on the ass. We'd only get falafel if we were lucky...

Originally Posted by Mahsima

In exchange for a dollar bill (taken from the teeth of course) and a smack on the ass. We'd only get falafel if we were lucky...

I think falafel goes to those who can handle the abuse with a smile, hold out their hands and say in their best Oliver voice, "Please sir! May I have another?"

Originally Posted by laura 2

I certainly don't think someone who can dance with multiple props should charge more, but if clients have a request for a specific prop that we don't have or don't do, we may lose the business to another dancer who does.

Yup. I'm a recovering propaholic. While I'm actually coming to enjoy the freedom of my pared-down repetoire, I also don't think it's a bad idea for anybody who works in the mainstream market to develop at least a basic proficiency in some of the more arty props like wings and candles. Personally, I hate dancing with wings and I'm burned out (pun not intended!) on candles, but occasionally somebody will request 'em. Gonna tackle shamadan as my BD New Year's Resolution, for this exact reason!

My boyfriend, who's about as "non-dancing civilian" as it gets, actually hates wings, candles, double veil and any type of fans! Everybody's got their own personal taste, but sometimes I wonder what the general public thinks of some of the funkier props we use...my man doesn't think the more exotic props look very "belly dancerish" to him. (Then again, he also insists that he learned a move called the "camel hump" while watching Shimmy.)

As for the fire-eating requests? Where do people GET ideas like that?

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

As for the fire-eating requests? Where do people GET ideas like that?

Fire dancing or eating is usually the second or third question out of people's mouths when they find out I dance. I don't know why that is, but there seem to be a lot of people who associate the two.

The GP is indeed obsessed with swords. I'm sure people deliberately seek OUT dancers who use swords but I never thought about folks expecting a reduction in rate for a sword-less performance. Some of the GP do have a sense of humor about it. I found this on a message board after one of daughter's sword dances: "'That chick with the sword can have my kidneys if she ever needs them. Just sayin'. Ain't nothin' finer than a woman armed with an edged weapon in a bar."

We don't charge extra for props, but we don't bring them anywhere they might get stolen. If the customer wants the pretty props, the customer needs to supply security. We DO charge extra for dancing on concrete - need to replace the shoes!

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

Fire dancing or eating is usually the second or third question out of people's mouths when they find out I dance. I don't know why that is, but there seem to be a lot of people who associate the two.

I see a fair number of events advertising belly dancers, fire eaters, magicians, zombies and/or burlesque queens etc etc etc. I assume that the intent is to attract customers with a 'circus' ambiance. And I've seen local fire dancers do some belly dance moves during their routines, I assume to add a touch of the 'exotic.' (Although how 'real' fire dancers feel about that I do not know!) That's why you'll get that question.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

My boyfriend, who's about as "non-dancing civilian" as it gets, actually hates wings, candles, double veil and any type of fans! Everybody's got their own personal taste, but sometimes I wonder what the general public thinks of some of the funkier props we use...my man doesn't think the more exotic props look very "belly dancerish" to him. (Then again, he also insists that he learned a move called the "camel hump" while watching Shimmy.)

As for the fire-eating requests? Where do people GET ideas like that?

They see a dancer doing it or hear from someone who saw it and thought it was standard. I'm not going to deny that dancing with fire or fan veils or whatever can't be spectacular to watch when done well, but isn't it funny that, with the exception of finger cymbals, the GP gravitates toward props that aren't traditional to the dance? (The Isis wings are a stretch. They sort of look like the tomb paintings, but we don't have any evidence that any human ever mocked up a set to dance around with in pharaonic times--and when the GP requests wings, they aren't asking for a serious attempt at interpreting historical dance anyway. They expect synthed-up fusion.)

Instead of asking "Where do people GET ideas like that?", I think it's a better question to ask, "Why are we doing such a poor job of showing people what the traditional dance is like that they have no concept of it and, therefore, can't appreciate it?" How much of the fact that the public has these strange expectations is our own fault as a group because we keep indulging it? Why are so many dancers afraid to tell their customers, "Look, I do serious Middle Eastern Dance, and I've spent years training to do it well. I don't dance to Lady Gaga with a hula hoop in a Vegas showgirl costume with a big feathered headdress, but what I do is even better. Trust me. You and your guests will enjoy it."

I know, I know, the customer is always right...unless they are misinformed, stupid, or wrong. If we can't--as a community--stand up to public ignorance, then we stay trapped in a "Hollywood Shuffle" of trying to balance artistic integrity with selling out to get work.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I know, I know, the customer is always right...unless they are misinformed, stupid, or wrong.

Man, I was just saying this same exact thing the other day...,r:;

When you earn part or all of your living as an entertainer, there is always that fine line between maintaining a respectable level of commercial viability and pandering to a misguided segment of the general public. It's not easy, but it absolutely can be done.

Personally, I'll oblige a request for wings OR fire OR sword, but if a customer asks me to perform two or three in one song, I'll 1. try to steer them toward one prop, 2. fulfill their outlandish request at an upcharge, or 3. refer them to another dancer if they balk at options 1 and 2. I find that 9 times out of 10, clients are completely amenable to a one-prop show if you explain the true "draw," which is the way you create a beautiful ambience and interact with their guests (or however you'd like to phrase it).

Then again, that's just me. Times are tough out there and, unfortunately, a lot of dancers feel a need to compromise their standards in order to get or keep gigs. But that's a whole other thread...,f::

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

(Then again, he also insists that he learned a move called the "camel hump" while watching Shimmy.)

As for the fire-eating requests? Where do people GET ideas like that?

i just remembered, there are groups of fire dancers in the background of shimmy! fire poi, maybe hula hoop, and maybe tai fingers.....
i've seen a lot of tribal fusion do fire dances, with poi, fingers, flaming lotuses that are balanced on the head, or other things. some of the balance dances are basically like a tray full of candles and can be quite good.... i have to admit i've never seen a tai finger piece that i personally liked.
anyway, that might be part of where the idea comes from. (an episode of man vrs food also had fire dancers/tf dancers
maybe ur BF means the chest camel?

I actually like fire dancing in the right venue and will even perform it once in awhile if the occasion/venue call for it. I just don't ingest it or understand why people expect us to, for that matter

My boyfriend demonstrated the "camel hump" and it basically looks like a big Dina hip circle. WTF? Hopefully it was all a misunderstanding on his part, not something he actually saw on the show....NO belly dance move should have the word hump in it. .w.:

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

NO belly dance move should have the word hump in it. .w.:

agreed! ^_^

Originally Posted by raqFariha

i just remembered, there are groups of fire dancers in the background of shimmy!

Aw, geez. If we have to model ourselves after "Shimmy," we're going to have to dance on the rooftops of industrial buildings, in utility tunnels, and in parking garages with flooded roofs, too.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Aw, geez. If we have to model ourselves after "Shimmy," we're going to have to dance on the rooftops of industrial buildings, in utility tunnels, and in parking garages with flooded roofs, too.

Is there anything so wrong with that?

</blatant sarcasm>

My take on it....

I charge the going rate for gigs done without props.

If the client specifically requests a certain prop, I *might* surcharge for the prop, depending on which prop is requested and how much extra hassle would be involved in using it.

For example, a shamadan is a pain in the neck to haul around. It requires keeping a supply of candles in good condition, and there's always the risk the silly things will drop onto my costume making wax stains. Those candles all have to be lighted before I start dancing, and I need to have a trustworthy person nearby with a fire extinguisher. It's a hassle. So, that's a prop I'd charge extra for.

I usually wouldn't charge extra for a prop that is logistically simple to deal with, such as a veil.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

My take on it....

I charge the going rate for gigs done without props.

If the client specifically requests a certain prop, I *might* surcharge for the prop, depending on which prop is requested and how much extra hassle would be involved in using it.

For example, a shamadan is a pain in the neck to haul around. It requires keeping a supply of candles in good condition, and there's always the risk the silly things will drop onto my costume making wax stains. Those candles all have to be lighted before I start dancing, and I need to have a trustworthy person nearby with a fire extinguisher. It's a hassle. So, that's a prop I'd charge extra for.

I usually wouldn't charge extra for a prop that is logistically simple to deal with, such as a veil.

Going in another direction from the OP here, so stay with me, I hope it'll make sense at the end, lol.

I think charging extra for PITA props is perfectly fine. I personally think of veil & zills as 'typical' props - by that I mean props that are expected to be seen by most GP - and I don't charge extra for them. However, I think props outside of those two - candle tray, Wings, sword, fans, etc. - should incur an extra charge. How much would of course depend on the rate for your area, what sort of show it is, etc. If I had someone requesting candle tray or Wings, it would cost more than if I was going to use veil and/or zills.

That being said, some dancers don't play zills, or don't really use veil. So they dance with other props instead. My zills & veil may be your sword & candle tray, for example. If that's the case, should the dancer charge more than the zills & veil dancer? Can they get away with a slightly higher fee because - again in my opinion - GP seems to expect zills & veil to be included, but not any other props, so there's that 'novelty' factor?

We prefer to keep pricing as simple as possible. We don't want the customer to feel like they are at the vet's office, coming in for an annual shot for the puppy and ending up with a list of charges and associated charges as long as their arm.

If your advertising or your website shows you performing with swords or fans or fire then the customer who calls you might very well be under the impression that that is part of your standard offering. As you said, some dancers do fans and candles and others do zills and swords. If you really want to charge extra for props, I'd try to avoid sticker shock by being upfront on the website about what you charge extra for. That would be fair enough for all. IMO.

There's already plenty to make pricing complicated. Distance to gig, time between sets, length of sets, costume changes, number of dancers, portable sound system, hip scarves or gifts for the guest(s) of honor. I agree with Shira on props that involve lots of candles and candle wax but otherwise if you are good at a prop it is probably simpler to make it standard. And many customers are open to suggestions and will let you steer them away from a lot of props if you talk up dance styles: they are really looking for variety but don't know how to express it other than by requesting props. If you suggest a drum solo and a karshilama instead of four veils and a fan dance they will understand that you will be presenting the variety they are looking for.

Yes. What Maura said.

I'm highly proficient in candles/fire, so I don't charge extra for that. However, I usually try to talk customers out of it if they don't have an adequate space for me to perform in - and they're usually cool with that, if I stress the importance of everyone's safety. When I start performing with shamadan, I'll probably charge a small additional fee, and make that clear on my website.

As for charging extra for sword, I'd feel wrong doing that. For one, a sword isn't much of a hassle - all you have to do is carry it in. Not to mention, there are way too many American clients who associate sword with their own idea of "traditional" belly dance. For all intents and purposes, I consider sword a very classic prop, even though its origins are Western.

Though I'm all for charging what we're worth and making our time worthwhile, I also don't know if it's good business to get upcharge-happy over things that most other dancers consider standard. If a customer feels like they can get the same type of show from another dancer, minus a couple of random $25 fees, they'll walk. While customers will spend a little bit extra on what they perceive to be a quality "product," today's consumer also comes equipped with a highly sensitive B.S. detector.

Maybe this will be a spinoff thread....stay tuned!

At one time, snakes were all the rage to perform with, yup, charged more to bring the snake. Yu bet.
You might try clarifiying with GP who calls and asks if you bellydance and do fire that that is generally "performance art that includes elements of dance and YOU dance"