Thread: Getting started...

I have been dancing for over three years now, primarily with a nonprofit dance troupe that performs at area haflas, local festivals, assisted living homes, and events for other non profits.

While I love dancing with my troupe and at troupe events, I want to start branching out. I want to do more solo work and try my hand at venues outside of the comfort zone of retirement homes where half of my audience is asleep...

I would love to get some experience with restaurant/club work, to see whether I enjoy doing that sort of thing, but my question is...

How do I get started?

I live in a very rural area that is unusually packed with belly dancers and severely lacking in venues. My town has one Middle Eastern restaurant that has already been claimed by a tribal troupe who perform once a week (for free). There is also a new Turkish/American restaurant that is currently unclaimed, but with my lack of experience that sort of venue I am uncomfortable approaching the owners or trying to manage things on my own.

Over an hour out of town there is a venue that has weekly belly dance shows during the warmer months, but only the headlining dancer gets paid and all other guest dancers are expected to be happy with just tips. The headlining dancer has invited me to perform as a guest, but I feel that if I'm going to drive over an hour to attend, then I should receive more than just tips.

At this point, I've contemplated asking the tribal troupe leader at the Middle Eastern restaurant if I can do an occasional 5 minute set while her girls are taking a break, just so I can see if I even LIKE restaurant work. She is a friend of mine and a former troupe mate, and I feel she might be receptive. However, I still dislike the idea of not getting paid, especially since it undercuts other area dancers who put their feet down about getting paid.

I'm not sure whether I should approach the owners of the new venue about possibly performing at their restaurant. I don't know if they'd even like the idea and, having no experience with contracts, etc, I'm not confident I wouldn't be cheating myself somehow.

The venue out of town is out of the question right now since the place is closed during the cold months, but when it is open I still dislike the idea of paying for travel to an unpaid gig, which does nothing but fill the pockets of the headlining dancer and undercut everyone else in the area.

UGH!

Any sage words of advice?

To be honest, if you've been working mostly with a troupe for the last 3 years, I'd recommend trying to get more hafla experience doing solos and full show solos.
What about organizing a monthly hafla? Bring performers together- feature a couple pros and a bunch of students. Try to do it at the new Turkish place on Sunday afternoons or other non-busy time. They might end up being interested in having dancing- AND in the mean time you'll be brushing up your solo skills. :)

Thank you, Samira!

Any advice on the appropriate way of approaching the management of the Turkish restaurant? What questions to ask, requirements to make, etc?

Did you see the thread on this from last month? "First meeting with restaurant tomorrow" etc. I just bumped it up for you.

Thanks for bumping that thread for me, Anthea. I missed it.

One more question though...

If I (or my troupe) were to host a monthly hafla at the restaurant, should we expect to pay the restaurant for the use of their space? Should they be required to pay us for the draw that we may bring to the restaurant? Or should both sides assume that they are giving and receiving a service of equal value (dancers get experience and exposure and restaurant gets $$ from food sold to audience) and therefore no money be exchanged?

If we did ask for $$ from the restaurant, who would the money go to? The professional dancers? The students? The troupe hosting the event? (technically we couldn't accept it since we're a non-profit, so the money would have to go to charity).

You'll all have to forgive me for being completely addled about this. I just want to make sure that I don't make a fool of myself or step on anyone else's toes.

Let me know if you want me to pass on info I got from the wonderful ladies who run the All Season's in the Balt area. ..g.:

Originally Posted by lunascura

Thanks for bumping that thread for me, Anthea. I missed it.

One more question though...

If I (or my troupe) were to host a monthly hafla at the restaurant, should we expect to pay the restaurant for the use of their space? Should they be required to pay us for the draw that we may bring to the restaurant? Or should both sides assume that they are giving and receiving a service of equal value (dancers get experience and exposure and restaurant gets $$ from food sold to audience) and therefore no money be exchanged?

If we did ask for $$ from the restaurant, who would the money go to? The professional dancers? The students? The troupe hosting the event? (technically we couldn't accept it since we're a non-profit, so the money would have to go to charity).

You'll all have to forgive me for being completely addled about this. I just want to make sure that I don't make a fool of myself or step on anyone else's toes.

Originally Posted by resullivan

Let me know if you want me to pass on info I got from the wonderful ladies who run the All Season's in the Balt area. ..g.:

OH! You're local! Who is your teacher? We've got GREAT teachers around here who mentor dancers going pro. That's your best bet. AND, their first piece of advice will be to start doing the "hafla" circuit. :)
There's also Dance du Ventre (with one student spot, the rest pros), Starlight Shimmy(a quarterly hafla) and soon will be Alf Lelah Hafla as well. :)

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

OH! You're local! Who is your teacher? We've got GREAT teachers around here who mentor dancers going pro. That's your best bet. AND, their first piece of advice will be to start doing the "hafla" circuit. :)
There's also Dance du Ventre (with one student spot, the rest pros), Starlight Shimmy(a quarterly hafla) and soon will be Alf Lelah Hafla as well. :)

My current teacher is Amany (Delaware) and before 2009 I studied under Athena (athenaraqs.net).

I'm not quite "local" to Baltimore. I'm down in Salisbury, Maryland. One of my biggest obstacles to branching out is travel related expenses and time. With my current income, I can't afford to travel three hours for a show. I also have difficulty driving long distances at night (I fall asleep) and don't always have someone available to travel with me.

I recently did a solo spot at Behind the Veil in Wilmington, DE, and I've got a spot lined up for a local show in February. I've been trying to hit the events that won't be a detriment to my ability to pay my bills...

Wouldn't you know that just as I'm trying to get my dance activity really rolling, my boss cuts my hours...

Originally Posted by lunascura

Thanks for bumping that thread for me, Anthea. I missed it.

One more question though...

If I (or my troupe) were to host a monthly hafla at the restaurant, should we expect to pay the restaurant for the use of their space? Should they be required to pay us for the draw that we may bring to the restaurant?

aiy yi yi didn't anyone answer this yet?
No don't pay the restaurant for dancing there! They should be more than happy to have you provide them with not only entertainment but a built-in audience (your family, friends, etc.).

There's a few ways to do the money thing -
You (personally) could sell advanced tickets, $$ going to you since as the restaurant will be making money on the meals/drinks; or you can ask the restaurant to add an entertainment cover charge; or you could stipulate a minimum purchase. The latter two will leave you to negotiate with the owner on your percentage. You should get something.

I've also heard some producers tip the staff extra as it's hard for them to handle everyone at pretty much the same time. If they manage to handle it well that is. There's often a lot of mess-ups when a restaurant tries to serve everyone at the same time if they're not used to it! Buffets' are nice in that regard...

Thank you, Anthea!

That helps.

Part of my confusion is that all of my experience in dealing with venues comes from the perspective of a nonprofit... Whenever my troupe holds an event, we have to rent out space (we don't have a studio) and then we charge admission to cover the cost of the rental.

Delete! Duplicate post. Silly interwebs!

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

To be honest, if you've been working mostly with a troupe for the last 3 years, I'd recommend trying to get more hafla experience doing solos and full show solos.

Excellent advice. Absolutely excellent.

Soloing on a stage is, in some ways, very similar to troupe work, but solo restaurant/party dancing is very different.

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Excellent advice. Absolutely excellent.

Soloing on a stage is, in some ways, very similar to troupe work, but solo restaurant/party dancing is very different.

Deborah

I understand this completely. I am interested in transitioning from one to the other and wasn't sure how to begin.

That is why I posted.

Lunascura, I'm in Salisbury too....we should talk.

Originally Posted by lunascura

I would love to get some experience with restaurant/club work, to see whether I enjoy doing that sort of thing, but my question is...

How do I get started?

I live in a very rural area that is unusually packed with belly dancers and severely lacking in venues. My town has one Middle Eastern restaurant that has already been claimed by a tribal troupe who perform once a week (for free). There is also a new Turkish/American restaurant that is currently unclaimed, but with my lack of experience that sort of venue I am uncomfortable approaching the owners or trying to manage things on my own.

I'm not sure whether I should approach the owners of the new venue about possibly performing at their restaurant. I don't know if they'd even like the idea and, having no experience with contracts, etc, I'm not confident I wouldn't be cheating myself somehow.

Any sage words of advice?

Personally, I say if you are interested in and equipped for a restaurant gig (decent dance skills, polished look, and costume), go ahead and approach the new restaurant with a proposal - one or two Friday/Saturday night shows for pay. Pretend you are the most accomplished dancer that you know, and charge what you think she should charge. Don't go too low...you are not just negotiating for yourself, but for all the dancers in the area.

Best case, you get the gig and quickly polish your solo performance skills up to par. Worst case, they laugh you out the door before you've finished your pitch (but you've still done the local community a service by introducing the idea that they should PAY for entertainment). It could also happen that you could set up the gig and someone else may take it from you a few weeks later (through undercutting or maybe the owners like their dancing more), but if you don't jump in when you see an opportunity it is NOT likely that there will be a space for you later. Restaurant work is rare and highly prized for the other opportunities it brings.

If they have you audition, never audition in the evening (free show? no go!), and if you audition when the restaurant is closed, it might be smart to bring an escort of some kind.

Oh yeah, and if you hate it? You can always quit. No reason not to try!

I've never done restaurant work, but I imagine it's like teaching or social dancing...there is a learning curve. Some skills are learned on-the-job - no one is expected to be perfect at first. Don't let modesty keep you from learning on the (paid) job like every other restaurant dancer did at first (traveling to dance for free at another restaurant to gain "restaurant" experience when you've already been dancing at haflas and retirement homes? You deserve better than that!).

Originally Posted by da Sage

Personally, I say if you are interested in and equipped for a restaurant gig (decent dance skills, polished look, and costume), go ahead and approach the new restaurant with a proposal - one or two Friday/Saturday night shows for pay. Pretend you are the most accomplished dancer that you know, and charge what you think she should charge. Don't go too low...you are not just negotiating for yourself, but for all the dancers in the area.

Yes. I'd add that being equipped means researching and knowing what the rates are in the area and knowing to charge that rate or above.

Originally Posted by da Sage

...Worst case, they laugh you out the door before you've finished your pitch (but you've still done the local community a service by introducing the idea that they should PAY for entertainment).

I'd add the "be equipped and prepared" part to this as well. If you are equipped and prepared they won't laugh you out the door. If you are not equipped and prepared they might laugh you out the door after you dance. In that case you would not be doing the local community a service. This statement is not about any individuals, mind you. Just general advice.

Originally Posted by da Sage

Oh yeah, and if you hate it? You can always quit. No reason not to try!

Well. If the venue proves to be unprofessional, sure. However when a dancer starts a gig and flakes out, it doesn't exactly paint a professional image for dancers. Might make a venue hesitant to hire one in the future. In fact I've seen it happen. Please be responsible and reliable.

Originally Posted by da Sage

I've never done restaurant work, but I imagine it's like teaching or social dancing...there is a learning curve. Some skills are learned on-the-job - no one is expected to be perfect at first. Don't let modesty keep you from learning on the (paid) job like every other restaurant dancer did at first (traveling to dance for free at another restaurant to gain "restaurant" experience when you've already been dancing at haflas and retirement homes? You deserve better than that!).

Da Sage, maybe you missed her first post that most of her experience was in troupe work. This is VERY VERY different from doing a solo 20-25 minute show. You imagine right that there IS some stuff that you really only learn "on the job"- BUT there IS a lot to learn first by dancing solo in front of a audience that is appropriate to your experience level. Imagine if you will, the transition of going from a very supportive hafla audience to an audience that is a paying audience with expectations and/or indifferent audience. You need the experience and confidence to deal with that. In addition, if you are the first belly dancer audience sees, you want to be that good- that they WANT to see belly dance AGAIN. You want them to fall in love with it too.
We all cut our teeth on hafla work. That part of "paying our dues" is what is supposed to give us enough experience to walk into restaurant prepared enough to ask at least the going rate.
If you can get and keep a gig at or above the going rate (or get party referrals and repeat clients at or above the local party rate)- you've got enough to be a pro in your area.

Re: the original poster - apparently she has done some research already, and the going rate in town is *free*, so I don't think she can do much worse. She stated that she'd like to do *more* solo work, which implies that she's already been doing some. Sometimes dance gigs go to the best dancer in town, sometimes they go to the most enterprising, or the best connected....why should the OP cut herself out of the running before she's even tried?

If she tries it and doesn't like it, the OP can easily refer the owners to one of the many local dancers she mentioned who don't have regular gigs and would like one. As long as she doesn't quit without reasonable advance notice and an equal-or-better replacement suggestion, it's perfectly OK for her to leave her job.

I have found that people laughing you out the door has much more to do with the character of the people you're dealing with, than the quality, value, or presentation of your proposal. If the going rate is $0 for a 10-person, 40-minute set, the restaurant managers may not be receptive to her proposal of a (say) $50 price for a 20 minute set (but they may remember her later if they get a special request from a customer). If people always give you the respect you deserve, samira, I'd like to live your life instead of mine!

In short...in a remote rural area, it seems like a bad idea to pass up a potential job while you travel to work for free/tips only to gain relevant experience (when you *already* have some relevant experience), while desperately hoping the job opportunity (or similar) will still be around when you're done. I think the OP could wind up kicking herself over her delayed action for YEARS if 1) someone else approaches the restaurant first and convinces them to take THEM on, or 2) the restaurant closes before she approaches them, and she never knows whether she could have succeeded as a dancer there.

The OP could be a good dancer, she could be middling, she could be quite bad, or she could be phenomenal. We'll never know (unless she posts video for critique). But if she wants to dance in a restaurant, I think approaching a likely restaurant and asking for a paid job is the right thing for her to do for herself (along with continuing to research local rates, continuing her training, doing hafla performances, etc).

Thanks to everyone who has offered advice and suggestions. I have discussed things with my teacher (a 30 year veteran of the area belly dance scene) and I/we may try arranging an occasional student/pro night at a local venue.

I, too am in a similar postition as the OP. I have had multiple troupe and solo dance performances. I've danced one 40 min solo for a party, for free, just to see what it was like. And I loved it- I thought I'd try a restaurant gig. My area is blessed with an abundance of veues and top-notch dancrs, who inspire me.
So I thought myself very lucky when I found a great venue that would like to have me dance. But apparently they don't pay...
"...because it's a small family owned business, they don't have money to pay their artists. Usually the compensation includes dinner, drinks, VIP treatment to all guests of the artist, and tips from dining patrons."
I thought that this would be compensation enough, because what I really want is experience and exposure.
Would this be undercutting? Is it unethical?
I love to dance. For now, I would dance for free, just because I love it so much, but someday I want to be a successful proffessional. Would this be a good or bad way to make a restaurant debut?
Thank you all!
Cheers,
Sundancegirl

Originally Posted by sundancegirl

I, too am in a similar postition as the OP. I have had multiple troupe and solo dance performances. I've danced one 40 min solo for a party, for free, just to see what it was like. And I loved it- I thought I'd try a restaurant gig. My area is blessed with an abundance of veues and top-notch dancrs, who inspire me.
So I thought myself very lucky when I found a great venue that would like to have me dance. But apparently they don't pay...
"...because it's a small family owned business, they don't have money to pay their artists. Usually the compensation includes dinner, drinks, VIP treatment to all guests of the artist, and tips from dining patrons."
I thought that this would be compensation enough, because what I really want is experience and exposure.
Would this be undercutting? Is it unethical?
I love to dance. For now, I would dance for free, just because I love it so much, but someday I want to be a successful proffessional. Would this be a good or bad way to make a restaurant debut?
Thank you all!
Cheers,
Sundancegirl

If other dancers are being paid to dance in the other numerous venues in town, dancing for "perks"-and-tips-only is a Very Bad way to make a restaurant debut. It is Absolutely undercutting!

If you are willing to dance for free, then dance at home, dance at your friends' parties, dance at haflas and bellydance festivals and talent shows. Why do you have to dance for free in a restaurant? The part that makes restaurant gigs cool is that someone thinks you deserve to get paid for your dancing. If the management is not willing to pay you to dance, then you will never be sure if they actually like your dancing, or just want to use you to help their business.

Also, how exactly is this gig different from "Ladies drink free until midnight" at the local skeezy dance club? Think about it! "Oh that girl, we don't pay her, we give her drinks and dinner and let her dance here." Is that the kind of "exposure" you want?

EDIT: sorry guys, I think I just fed a troll. Move along, nothing to see here.

Da Sage, you bring up some very good points. I thought that this was a little fishy, which is exactly why I posted here. Thank you.

Originally Posted by sundancegirl

...
So I thought myself very lucky when I found a great venue that would like to have me dance. But apparently they don't pay...
"...because it's a small family owned business, they don't have money to pay their artists. Usually the compensation includes dinner, drinks, VIP treatment to all guests of the artist, and tips from dining patrons."
I thought that this would be compensation enough, because what I really want is experience and exposure.
Would this be undercutting? Is it unethical?
...

It would be unethical and undercutting on your part.
It's also totally unethical on the owner's part. They're totally scamming you and trying to take advantage.

On the practical side, to reinforce your determination not to get sucked into a no-pay situation: 1) it is very difficult to get a pay raise once you start dancing at a place. If you are hoping to wow the owners into paying you when you get better, don't. If they wanted to pay for someone better, they'd be doing that now. 2) Restaurant owners talk to each other. A lot. Just like dancers do. They carp, they gossip, and they share info. Your reputation as a dancer who will perform for free will be firmly established, congratulations! And other establishments will get the bright idea of offering lower or no pay to their dancers... so where will you be moving on to? The other dancers in town will have a hard time maintaining the kind of pay standard you might aspire to if you are dancing for nothing. You really WILL have an impact!

Originally Posted by sundancegirl

So I thought myself very lucky when I found a great venue that would like to have me dance. But apparently they don't pay...
"...because it's a small family owned business, they don't have money to pay their artists. Usually the compensation includes dinner, drinks, VIP treatment to all guests of the artist, and tips from dining patrons."

OK. Many places legitimately don't have an entertainment budget, and that's perfectly fine. If a venue can't afford to hire you, then they can't afford you, ya know? It is what it is.

But if you want to get a feel for how ludicrous this "offer" really is, go ahead and substitute "electrical provider," "liquor distributor" or "property taxes" for "artists." Anybody in their right mind wouldn't haggle with any of the above. So why is it acceptable to haggle with artists, who also need fair pay to make a living?