Thread: A New Perspective on Undercutting?

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

I have "starts at" prices on my website and specify things that might make the price higher, but not a "menu" with "how much higher". This gives me some leeway for PITA fees and some wiggle room for bargaining.
just re-did it actually www.samirashuruk.com
I have found that many larger events with more people/things/programs to coordinate require more of my time, even for the same length show. I book more time in my evening for these events and this is often reflected in the cost.

I've done the "from" thing (although my site is not yet published) for the very same reason, Samira; those larger events are 'way more time-consuming than Uncle Joe and Aunt Sally's 50th wedding anniversary and should be priced accordingly. Then there are the PITA conditions to consider with our more "regular" gigs . . . ..g.:

Deborah

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Jeez....and they probably acted like that $60 gig would be the be-all, end-all of your dance career! Yup.

You couldn't pay me enough to get me out of the house with all the whackadoos, drunk drivers and speed traps on NYE. Even when I'm not gigging, I still hate going out on NYE. Sad thing is, that guy probably found at least 4 other dancers who'd jump at the chance to inflict all that drama upon themselves at such a shoddy rate Double

Deborah

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

I have "starts at" prices on my website and specify things that might make the price higher, but not a "menu" with "how much higher". This gives me some leeway for PITA fees and some wiggle room for bargaining.
just re-did it actually www.samirashuruk.com
I have found that many larger events with more people/things/programs to coordinate require more of my time, even for the same length show. I book more time in my evening for these events and this is often reflected in the cost.

Ooh very interesting. I'm just an intermediate student, but I love seeing what the professionals are up to. I love your site!

If I were you, I'd alter the punctuation of this line on your hire page for clarity:
"Rates will vary with travel time, prime time, and specialties—of which Samira performs many!"

Of course if I were you, I might not get around to that for a long time because I'd spend the first few days looking in the mirror & saying, "My red hair looks awesome with my skin!" ;)

So GS posted a little ditty about undercutting today...anyone recognize the dancer pasted onto the bag lady??

Ask Yasmina #12 | Belly Dance News & Events - Gilded Serpent

Also not the sign: "Will teach for donations." Yes, this is actually happening in the Bay Area right now.

I came into this thread well into the discussion and I read most but not all of the responses. However I have not seen much of anything about helping the new and in many cases relatively uneducated rising-stars. I can understand not reaching out to a WWC or 6WW but doing so may shock them into reality or better yet create a more educated dancer.

I will admit that I am not a bellydance superstar and I don't claim to be amazing but I hope to be someday. I work my buns off trying to achieve that goal. I practice up to 3 hours a day and am doing everything I know to do as a dancer to become better. I will be getting a couple of certifications this summer along with possible competition this fall and a convention as well. I strive to look professional in all that I do, be it an event, class, workshop, or even training(outside of my home). Basically, if I am in the public at all I make sure that I look presentable and always put my best foot forward(or at least I try). I dance at as many haflas and other events as I can but quite frankly it has been very difficult to really make a go of it.

I say that to say this. I am just starting to get paying gigs outside of the restaurant and I have no idea what to charge and I feel that there are others in my position. I don't want to undercut other dancers but I have asked pros in my area and the answers they give seem absurd, knowing that it is not unlikely that some(not all) would give me crazy answers just so I will quote it and not get work. I have another friends that told me to make it low so that I will get work because the economy is slow. I don’t know who to trust, and how am I suppose to know what to charge if there is not stability in the market. Some dancers charge $130 for a 15min performance while others charge $50 for 30mins, or some will charge 20 for a party and so on and so forth. It makes no sense to me.

It seems that most upper level dancers are so worried about themselves and their bottom line that they have no interest in properly educating the "Rising Star" who has been dancing for a reasonable amount of time even if asked directly.
(to be continued)

For example... I have been dancing for 6years and am told that I am rather good. I have been dancing professionally for 2years. I was getting nothing out of classes in my local area and was just wasting money like crazy on what I consider mostly(not all) crap instructors. Though they are quite popular in my area. I finally found an instructor that I thought was worthy and she professed to help dancers become professionals. I drove 45min-1hr each way to study with her one time a week while practicing daily on my own. After dancing with her for a few months (with a years of previous bellydance experience under my belt) and a few unprofessional encounters with her she proclaimed to me that she never lets dancers dance with/for her unless they have been with her for at least a year. I thought well I guess I just need to pay my dues, so I kept going. A while later a thin and beautiful college girl from Greece joined our class.... and you would bet a couple of months later this instructor asked her to dance at the restaurant that this instructor is head dancer for. I am very happy that the girl got the opportunity as she has become a friend of mine. However, I was hurt that the instructor had asked her to dance as she told me that she would let me dance when I was ready. This was in the same breath as "you need to lose weight but its ok because the economy is bad so you have plenty of time" :*( It basically came down to I am fat in her eyes (which I am a little over weight but not a ton and I costume it well) so she is ashamed to claim me as her student regardless of my skill as a dancer and would rather hire an unskilled 6WW that is beautiful. Please note that I have no ill feeling toward the dancer just the actions of the instructor.

So I digress. The point is that there are those of us "young" dancers that work are asses off and pay a crap ton of money on training, classes, hair, make-up, costuming, etc. Yet we never get what I would consider a well deserved chance or even a tid bit of guidance and education (that we pay for) to become a proper professional and do things the right way. I personally strive for this as it is a point of personal and professional ethics for me. However I am reduced to grabbing at every crap shoot of a performance I can get my hands on. I am strongly considering street performance and other unpaid donation only 'gigs' for lack of options. Frankly I am disappointed at the actions of the higher level dancers that spout off about "under-cutters" yet refuse to do anything about it such as simply educating them. I would jump and honestly break down in tears if an upper level dancer came to me and offered me a chance to sit down with them and learn the no kidding business of belly dance.
(to be continued)

I have never been called an under-cutter and hope I never am but I have costumers who want me to perform and I am scared to talk to them because I don't have a clue as to what to tell them and I fear that once I name a price I am stuck with it. I also worry about the repercussions in my community as that is the only way I will really know if I did the right thing or not, by how my peers react. I think this is a sad, scary, an pathetic way to operate but here I sit.

So, please, before you judge or put blame or condemnation on another dancer perhaps you should talk to them, give them a chance or a constructive critique, or at minimum help educate them.
(End of Rant, Thanks for listening :)

Originally Posted by dancingwithjuls

...So, please, before you judge or put blame or condemnation on another dancer perhaps you should talk to them, give them a chance or a constructive critique, or at minimum help educate them.
(End of Rant, Thanks for listening :)

That's what many of us do, Adonia. In classes, in workshops, here on Bhuz, by writing articles and posting info on our websites.
It IS confusing when you get conflicting information about local rates. I'd look to who are the most respected, longest lasting dancers in your area who are able to sustain their business- and find out what their rates are.

CCheck Samira Shrunk's website for a list of average rates:
Rates Article. Indiana is not in the list, but KY and MI are, maybe those rates can help you.

Sit down and figure out how much money YOU need to charge to avoid undercutting YOURSELF. IMO, I think dancers should worry less about what other people charge (or say they charge) and worry more about figuring out how much it actually costs to dance. YOU are the person you are most likely to undercut. If you spent one hour negotiating, and you start preparing at 4 pm and climb back in your jeans at 11 pm (after selecting music, rehearsal, makeup and costume, driving to venue, parking, performing, driving back, removing makeup, and airing and cleaning costume) then you need to pay yourself for 8 hours labor plus the costuming/training / incidentals. When you figure out a rate that is truly fair for you, I'd be willing to bet money that you'll be charging as much as or more than the other dancers in the area. Adjust the rates as needed and don't be shy about telling last year's customers that this year's prices are higher.

Donna Carleton the author of 'Looking for Little Egypt' lives in Bloominton IN, very close to Indy, and she has been involved in the Indiana dance scene for a long time. She has also been a member of ISAMEDT for a long time. Maybe a private lesson with her at which you do nothing but ask these questions would help. My two business partners purchase private lessons from very experienced performers before or after workshops in order to ask business questions, and it works well.

As far as your weight goes: some customers insist on slender. Lose weight and see what happens. Also, is the teacher aware of your expectations? She may be under the impression that she is being paid to teach you how to dance, not how to break into the dance business.

I'm not sure how to interpret your statement 'Frankly I am disappointed at the actions of the higher level dancers that spout off about "under-cutters" yet refuse to do anything about it such as simply educating them.' It sounds like what you really want is a mentor, and they are hard to find. Business knowledge is very valuable. Thousands of dollars of mistakes create that knowledge. Bhuz is one place professionals share business knowledge, but if you want A-Z business training then look for someone who will sell it. If you cannot come to terms with your current teacher, then consider workshops specifically oriented towards the business end of dance. Artemis is a wonderful teacher who holds workshops on going pro (she calls them 'So you want to be a star' or something similar). She is an experienced and generous teacher.

Originally Posted by dancingwithjuls

It seems that most upper level dancers are so worried about themselves and their bottom line that they have no interest in properly educating the "Rising Star" who has been dancing for a reasonable amount of time even if asked directly.

Define "upper level." I personally have not met a true-quality teacher who will not discuss these matters with a serious student as part of their educational or mentoring process. You can debate how much of that information should be free and how much should require an outlay of tuition dollars, but what you are describing is a dancer who has crawled to the top of her local heap, and may have built great publicity around herself, but is the equivalent of a pretty, red apple with a worm in it. "Upper level" to me is someone who not only has impeccable dance abilities and solid teaching methods, but the maturity and integrity to use those skills to serve everyone--herself, her students, the larger dance community, and the GP--well. Anybody else is just a nice dancer who can't see beyond her own shallow needs.

Originally Posted by dancingwithjuls

I have never been called an under-cutter and hope I never am but I have costumers who want me to perform and I am scared to talk to them because I don't have a clue as to what to tell them and I fear that once I name a price I am stuck with it. I also worry about the repercussions in my community as that is the only way I will really know if I did the right thing or not, by how my peers react. I think this is a sad, scary, an pathetic way to operate but here I sit.

Inquire about the rates in your area for similar entertainers. How much does it cost to hire a magician or a celebrity impersonator? How do those numbers compare to the going rates for dancers in your area? That should give you an idea of what people should expect to be paying for you to perform, and if you have those prices, you can quote them when you negotiate gigs. Sometimes the population of an area needs to be trained, and the only way to do that is stick to your guns. Being so desperate to perform that you undercut yourself and others does not serve you or anyone else well in the long run.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

What you are describing is a dancer who has crawled to the top of her local heap, and may have built great publicity around herself, but is the equivalent of a pretty, red apple with a worm in it..

IM not-so-HO, arranging for private lessons where these questions can be asked will probably work a lot better than calling a teacher a pretty red apple with a worm in it. The private lessons, and the fees associated with them, show respect for the value of the knowledge desired. Paying for a long private lesson (two or more hours) is especially conducive to these conversations. If you don't trust or respect your local teachers, then wait until a Name comes into town for a workshop: the organizer will often be willing to arrange for private lessons. Expect to pay between 50 and 150 dollars an hour. It will be worth it. They've seen it all. Some of them will even be willing to tell you if they think you can 'make it.' If the first one tells you you can 'make it, ' don't start cheering yet. Go for a second, and a third, and a fourth opinion as other Names come into the area. The amount these people know is astounding. Invest in it. They will give you a perspective that you will never get from a once-a-week group class.

Really excellent advice above Dancingwithjulss. Lots of good information.
I'd add:
When determining professional level prices, take all of the above into account AND ALSO the cost of music, lessons, professional costumes etc. If you are going to be professional, whether full or part time, you will treat it as a profession.
If your teacher has mentioned weight to you- don't blame her. This is the entertainment business and a visual art. A responsible teacher is honest with her students about this. There ARE different venues with different expectations and I know dancers of all shapes and sizes with long term gigs. If however you are going for the "commercially standard" type of venue, unfortunately you will need to be close to their "commercially standard" range expectations.
I start mentioning little tidbits about professionalism from the very beginning. Little bits and pieces are woven throughout my teaching. BUT, one on one time is often essential. Most dancers in a class aren't interested in going pro AND we all have different things we need to work on to get there. There is A LOT of non-dance technique stuff that has to be learned. All too often there is simply not enough time in class.
Artemis Mourat's workshop "So You Wanna Be a Star" is truly excellent. If you can take it, it's worth travel expense. www.serpentine.org

Originally Posted by maurazebra

IM not-so-HO, arranging for private lessons where these questions can be asked will probably work a lot better than calling a teacher a pretty red apple with a worm in it.

I'm not saying you should say that to someone's face. There are some "upper-level" teachers who are very free with their advice, and will stay an hour after the workshop ends to chat with students about their personal experiences and opinions regarding having dance as a career. There are some who demur and say that they prefer not to discuss those issues glibly in public, but will be happy to talk about them one-on-one with you in a private lesson. And there are a few who preserve their privacy and don't want to make the gritty background details of their careers public record, but will happily refer you to dancers they respect who would be open to giving you frank advice on the matter. There are pros and cons to each of these approaches. However, I am immediately skeptical of any teacher who won't have any honest conversation about this with a serious student under any circumstance. If you won't ever talk about this stuff without explaining that you have a consistent policy not to, or you play games where you talk only about useless little bits of it and string students along, or you intentionally give misleading/wrong information, or you act like only your pet student is worthy of this information, then, sorry, I think you're a wormy apple of a teacher.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

If you won't ever talk about this stuff without explaining that you have a consistent policy not to, or you play games where you talk only about useless little bits of it and string students along, or you intentionally give misleading/wrong information, or you act like only your pet student is worthy of this information, then, sorry, I think you're a wormy apple of a teacher.

Duly noted. But when you inform an unhappy student that her teacher is a crawling-to-the-top-of-a-greasy-regional-pole-wormy-apple-of-a-teacher (basing this opinion on a few initial and agitated paragraphs, which I think is ill-advised) maybe giving her some options other than to find out what the local magicians charge is in order. I understand that you feel a need to voice your opinion of people who meet your criteria for wormy apple teachers, and I understand that you don't like to be misunderstood, but what is this doing for the person with the problem? Could we turn the spotlight back on her, please? She's already commuting a long way to go to this teacher. She's tried other teachers. She wants to perform. She's willing to train. She wants to do things right. She doesn't understand the disjoint between what her teacher is doing and what she believes her teacher promised her. She's feeling downhearted and even bitter. Now what?

I don't know much about the dance scene where the Adonia lives, but it is possible that the best she can do in her location is still inadequate. As I understand it, she has two issues: (1) finding a teacher to mentor her, and (2) determining what the going rates are in her area. There are only so many ways to address (2), and the obvious ones have been covered here. It sounds like there are no good mentors in her immediate area, and commuting to study with a teacher who is not particularly interested in helping you is not a strategy with a high likelihood of success, private lessons or otherwise.

What do you do when you can't find a mentor? Keep looking. Hope someone else moves to your area. Keep taking workshops and hope to make a connection with a visiting dancer. Save up and commute farther away to a teacher who is willing to make a commitment to help you grow as a dancer in return. If you really want to devote yourself to the dance, you even consider moving elsewhere. I don't think there is much point to wasting time, money, and gas to take lessons with someone who undermines your confidence and passes you by for others who fail to meet the same criteria she uses as justification for not selecting you. A mentor should be someone who champions your cause, encourages you, and inspires you to be your best, not someone who frustrates and disappoints you.

Adonia is in a very discouraging situation. I've been in it myself. Sometimes the opportunities you want are simply not available where you are and when you want them. If this is important to you, you have to think in larger (and probably more expensive) terms. Otherwise, you resign yourself to DVDs and workshops and making do with less than what you really want.