Thread: cultural understanding and professional level dancers....

Separate from the "do you represent Arabic culture" thread, I wanted to bring up cultural understanding and having it apparent in our dancing *when we are dancing for those audiences that might expect it*.
Inspired by this article on ice dancers
Russian ice dance tribute to Aborigines offensive to Aborigines - Fourth-Place Medal - Olympics Blog - Yahoo! Sports
who were meant to represent a culture I thought it might be good "food for thought" in a discussion.
Whether or not you see yourself as "representing" a culture, do you as a professional attempt to demonstrate understanding of the music, dance and culture traditions?
If so, why and how? How do you think it effects your hire-ability?
If not, why not? How do you think it effects your hire-ability?

do you as a professional attempt to demonstrate understanding of the music, dance and culture traditions?

Yes. It does not effect my hire-ability or even my student enrollment. I do it for love of the music and the people who made it, and so I can look in the mirror at the end of the day and know I have done the best that I can. As a matter of fact, it worked against me as I turned down a young lady (a beginner student) for private lessons yesterday because she wanted me to help her stage a "performance" in a social setting 6 weeks from now. Lord knows the money could have gone to studio rent, but I just can not do it.

The ignorant comments on that Aborigine article really depress me.

My teacher always said this: we're playing in someone else's sandpit and we have to think about what we do. Her rule of thumb was whether or not she offended Arabs. Of course, some people who are Arabs are always going to be offended by any BD, but so long as she wasn't doing anything flagrantly inappropriate and was obviously respectful and clearly trying to get it right, and continuing to learn, she felt she was doing the best she could. This is how I think, too.

That "Aborigine" piece is the equivalent of a lot of tribal, when you think of it.

Would you look at all that white frosting on the gingerbread. Duh!

OP SamiraShuruk:"Whether or not you see yourself as "representing" a culture, 1. do you as a professional attempt to demonstrate understanding of the music, dance and culture traditions?
If so, 2. why and 3. how? 4. How do you think it effects your hire-ability?
If not, why not? How do you think it effects your hire-ability?"
Good question! I ask myself the same. Answers: ,r:;
1. As a professional, I do attempt to demonstrate understanding of the music, dance, and culture traditions. This is a pretty broad area and for me, takes a lot of committment, time, & energy. Lots of reading, talking, digesting. Don't claim to be perfect.
2. Why: Because the roots of the dance I exhibit originate in countries & cultures far away and different from the one in which I live. In making this dance it "my own" & also spreading it around, my concept of integrity tells me I should know the source. And because I am a naturally curious & inquisitive person who enjoys collecting & disseminating info. It's my nature.
3. How: To demonstrate understanding: Hmmm. Examples:
*Distribute descriptions of my/our demonstrations & performances at almost all events, restaurants, venues, etc (Small postcard things w info on them). I like things on paper to hand out.
*Give mini seminars, lectures, & demos whenever possible (schools, facilities, etc.) Direct people to sources such as reputable web sites for info.
*Cultivate a broad social circle as diverse as possible. Go out of my way.
*Try not to act as if I am an "expert", but have acquired some knowledge through study and activity that I like to share.
*Challenge "ignorant" (meaning lack of knowledge) statements when presented
4. Affects hire-ability: For me, very positively. I feel I give off a sincere vibe. And that I am respectful in my studies. I think that is appreciated by the people with whom I do business. I get lots of "repeat" business.
The Arabic people that I know like my performances and demos.

Arabic culture is such an umbrella term. There are many different Arabic cultures, the best I can do as a dancer is understand the differences between them and incorporate little nods or elements that best reflect the culture I'm dancing for.

I'm not a cultural anthropologist, nor am I a representation, I am a paid entertainer and the best thing I can do is entertain. Knowing the elements that each culture considers entertaining is the most I can do.

Also not offending is important. I love all forms of dance (and often perform fusion in proper venues) but I would NEVER show up to an Arabic venue in my fusion costume and dance to flamenco music.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

Also not offending is important. I love all forms of dance (and often perform fusion in proper venues) but I would NEVER show up to an Arabic venue in my fusion costume and dance to flamenco music.

Why is is that doing fusion equals offending someone? Are Arab people incapable of appreciating fusion dance? Do Arab people only want to see bellydancing? As Long as your not calling it bellydance of course. Why can't you do Fusion in an Arabic venue?

Take the tassels on a lot of the tribal costumes. It is my understanding that they are derived from camel harness decorations. If someone showed up dancing in bits of horse regalia...it would give me pause....

Originally Posted by toria_dances

Why is is that doing fusion equals offending someone? Are Arab people incapable of appreciating fusion dance? Do Arab people only want to see bellydancing? As Long as your not calling it bellydance of course. Why can't you do Fusion in an Arabic venue?

Most places in my area are looking for "bellydance" be it American Cabaret, Egyptian or turkish. There are no non dancer sponsored venues that want fusion. If I was to show up at a hookah bar in a fusion costume and perform fusion dance under the term bellydance (which some fusion dancers try to do) I would never be hired again.

I remember once at a large event, a well respected teacher/performer who is from "over there" was watching a fusion performance and asked me "why do they call this bellydance? There is no bellydance at all." He seemed offended.

If I was to show up at a hookah bar in a fusion costume and perform fusion dance under the term bellydance (which some fusion dancers try to do) I would never be hired again.

That is pretty common around these parts!

Originally Posted by anala

Take the tassels on a lot of the tribal costumes. It is my understanding that they are derived from camel harness decorations. If someone showed up dancing in bits of horse regalia...it would give me pause....

Yes, but tassels *are* worn, or were traditionally, in different bits of North Africa so it's not strictly correct to say ATS dancers are prancing round in horse decorations. Like that "Aborigine" deal, they've taken the idea of tassels, headdresses etc and incorporated them into their own costuming - but it may or may not have much relationship to the "real thing". Add music that's unrelated, movements that are unrelated, and you've got something that really isn't going to be read as belly dance by quite a lot of people.

Conversely, many people think any wriggling around in a two-piece costume to "exotic" music is belly dance, even if it's Beyonce humping the ground.

Tassels were decorations for people also

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

Most places in my area are looking for "bellydance" be it American Cabaret, Egyptian or turkish. There are no non dancer sponsored venues that want fusion. If I was to show up at a hookah bar in a fusion costume and perform fusion dance under the term bellydance (which some fusion dancers try to do) I would never be hired again.

I remember once at a large event, a well respected teacher/performer who is from "over there" was watching a fusion performance and asked me "why do they call this bellydance? There is no bellydance at all." He seemed offended.

But isn't "American Cabaret" fusion?

I stand (sit) corrected. I have never seen those poofy yarn tassels on any thing except camel, horse and donkey harnes (in photos of course). I have some cool tassels in my sewing drawer but they are seed bead and yarn and look very different.

Originally Posted by toria_dances

But isn't "American Cabaret" fusion?

"American Cabaret" AKA Vintage Oriental is a fusion of traditional styles that was first performed for first generation immigrants. It is a mix of many different cultures but it still comes closer to "root forms" of Middle Eastern/Oriental dance. It is different from "fusion", which is really usually short for "tribal fusion" that has many other cultures mixed in, including Indian and including American Tribal Style sensibilities (as well as not subcultures such as Gothic). For much more in depth info Toria check out Artemis Mourat's Article here:
http://www.serpentine.org/artemis/turkishdance.html

In the DC and Baltimore area, from what I've seen of hiring practices, ethnic audiences want a "taste of home" more than they want strongly American (and other) influenced "fusion." We have been lucky as there are some venues that are highly supportive of fusion forms- but most of those are less traditional venues- coffee houses, bars etc. and not ME owned/operated/attended.

There are many examples of tassels in clothing and costuming from the Middle East, however, Anala, I dont believe I have seen those big chunky ones on anything other than animals either. I would love to see images of them on people if someone has them to share!

And technically American Cabaret would be fusion, I guess. But it still "reads" as bellydance - even if Americanized, and that is what people are paying to see at many venues.

What people here are calling 'fusion', in many cases, bears no resemblance to the dances of the Middle East in movement, costuming or music, and thats the difference.

I know a guy from Egypt (who also happens to be a dancer) and I first met him when I was just starting to learn Egyptian style. He asked what type of dance I did, and I told him it was American. He laughed and said to me "Egyptian is better, but American is ok too." I dont know that I would have gotten that reaction if I had laid claim to Indigo style fusion dance ;-)

Originally Posted by anala

If I was to show up at a hookah bar in a fusion costume and perform fusion dance under the term bellydance (which some fusion dancers try to do) I would never be hired again.

That is pretty common around these parts!

Your profile says New Mexico Anala.
Where Tanya is (NYC and Northern New Jersey) there is a very large Arabic population and most of the hookah establishments are Arab and/or ME owned and attended. Is this the case in New Mexico? (genuine curious question- trying to see if there is a difference in audience and owners etc)

I too haven't seen the big chunky tassels (such as worn by ATS and fusion stylistas) worn by people over there. Smaller ones and smaller ones with beads, yes. Smaller thread ones on clothing yes. I'd love to see photos of the larger chunky ones, too.

Tassels of different types are worn by humans (including silky tassels on Arabic men's headdresses). So, the statement that Arabs get deeply offended by tassels on humans seems to be a bit too broad.

As a part-time tribal dancer, of course I know that my ATS costume is not something that is worn by dancers in the lands of the dance (as explained in great length on the FatChanceBellyDance Makeup and Costume DVD), and I continue to have a grand time learning more where the elements come from - leafing through books on ethnic clothing is way too much fun! And, as somebody who plays in the SCA a little bit, I also know that big yarn tassels are not a good choice for events where it is expected that one makes a reasonable attempt at historical accuracy.

It all comes down to knowing what to do when.

This conversation reminds me of something else that happened a few years ago. I have a friend from Lebanon who I see several times a year on camping trips. One afternoon at one of these trips I was sitting under a tree happily embroidering a linen choli with wool for an ATS costume.

This friend came over to chat and asked me what it was and that he thought it looked nice. I told him it was part of a dance costume.

My BF chimed in at that moment to point out it was for Bellydance.

The friend from Lebanon then looked at me and quite bluntly stated that I had better plan to sew a ton of sequins on it.

Is this the case in New Mexico? (genuine curious question- trying to see if there is a difference in audience and owners etc)

Oh most assuredly yes. I can count the ME people in my 32K pop town on 2 hands. They are mostly Iranian and a few Pakistani. In the big city of Albuquerque, (4 hours of next to nothing from me to them at 80 MPH) we have maybe 3 ME restaurants that I know of, only 2 of which hire dancers. The one hookah bar I know of is a very young and hip place for those who want to play at ME culture decorations on the wall. Maybe somebody who lives up there can set me straight?

Oh no! It's "Avatar on Ice!"

Honestly, in front of students and audiences I never purported to understand "Arab culture." I demonstrated an ability to understand the rhythms and perform as a technically sound, emotive dancer. This is what got me hired and requested. Not my knowledge or attempted representation of any culture.

(I also tried to avoid any gestures that, to my limited knowledge, could have been offensive to Occidental or Oriental audiences.)

Originally Posted by anala

Is this the case in New Mexico? (genuine curious question- trying to see if there is a difference in audience and owners etc)

Oh most assuredly yes. I can count the ME people in my 32K pop town on 2 hands. They are mostly Iranian and a few Pakistani. In the big city of Albuquerque, (4 hours of next to nothing from me to them at 80 MPH) we have maybe 3 ME restaurants that I know of, only 2 of which hire dancers. The one hookah bar I know of is a very young and hip place for those who want to play at ME culture decorations on the wall. Maybe somebody who lives up there can set me straight?

..g.: No "setting straight" by me! I'm forever curious about differences from region to region in our own country (in the practice and business of this dance form). I think we all can learn from each other.
To me it makes sense that places with higher % of ethnic population will have different expectations for their dancers. "Different" not being "better" or "worse", merely different.
These sorts of discussions might help people learn expectations in their own areas and answer questions about maybe how to try to open up opportunities for their particular genre/style of the dance.

do you mean puffy ones like in this painting?

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Whether or not you see yourself as "representing" a culture, do you as a professional attempt to demonstrate understanding of the music, dance and culture traditions?
If so, why and how? How do you think it effects your hire-ability?

To me, it is just plain fun to learn more about the dance, the culture, the music. Knowing more makes dancing so much more fun.

Yes, puffy ones like that, but what culture does that painting represent?

Originally Posted by steffib

to me, it is just plain fun to learn more about the dance, the culture, the music. Knowing more makes dancing so much more fun.

absolutely!

No...I meant up there as in Albq. I know there are a few bhuzzers up there. *waves*

Originally Posted by Azhia

Oh no! It's "Avatar on Ice!"
Honestly, in front of students and audiences I never purported to understand "Arab culture." I demonstrated an ability to understand the rhythms and perform as a technically sound, emotive dancer. This is what got me hired and requested. Not my knowledge or attempted representation of any culture.

I was specifically trying to avoid the "represent" concept. I believe there is a difference between "representing" and "demonstrating understanding."
So, Azhia, by understanding the rhythms and the dances and costuming that go along with it, as well as all the other tidbits of knowledge that come along with it- you say you haven't developed understanding of the cultures in any way? Do you study with any Arab/Turkish teachers or taken workshops from some? Did/do you learn any cultural understanding in doing so?

Originally Posted by toria_dances

do you mean puffy ones like in this painting?

That painting is Indian, not Middle Eastern. But yes, the puffy ones.

Thats what I thought Samira (that it was from further East), which means those items (while beautiful, and I could totally see elements of it incorporated in fusion or ATS) really arent going to read "true" for an Arab audience (might not even read true for a general public audience either, depending on how its done).