Thread: Mini lesson = mini integrity?

Tourbeau, I think your posts and comparisons to other disciplines assume that belly dance in North America should ideally be exclusively a performance art, whereas I agree with Maurazebra that there's no reason we as performers can't also acknowledge the dance's social applications.

The comparison to Dina's performances isn't exact because they're within the context of a culture where the fundamental movements of her dance are known to everyone already and she is respected for refining and elaborating that social dancing into an entertaining performance art.

In our culture, there's usually a knowledge gap. Our audiences often aren't at all familiar with the basic movements of our dance. So I don't understand why we can't entertain multiple options for educating people on our dance: performing for them so that they can see what Oriental dance looks like as a performance art or teaching a taster lesson to give them an idea of how they might use related movements in a social context, just like people do in the Middle East.

To take Lauren's "Pampered Chef" example, you can either hire a chef to cook for you, because they're a professional and you want a great eating experience, or you can hire a chef to teach you and your friends to make a dish you might not be able to make on your own, because we're all cooks in our daily lives. Chefs just take a skill all of us use every day to a higher level.

Similarly, bellydance can be a performance art or something average people do a little of for fun at parties, and I think part of the reason mini-lesson events are so well-received in North America is because many people lack any kind of social dancing framework and it's nice to be able to do something on the dance floor other than rock back and forth on your feet.

Frankly, I think part of the problem with the way bellydance is taught in North America is that we overemphasize the possibility of performance, creating students for whom that is the primary goal, when the dance can be just as satisfying used exclusively for social purposes, or for exercise, or what-have-you. That's the flip side of this debate. Why not encourage an understanding that the dance has both performance and social possibilities? These types of gigs are a way to do that.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

I'm constantly being told that MED is a social dance first and foremost in Egypt and Greece. Why not the West ? Don't bulldoze through it, don't leave a hipscarf and don't make funny noises. The 'party' vs 'arty' concept from Shira works well. Folks get happy and the light bulbs go on.. your potential dancers only need a short exposure to see the possibilities, the others now see 'belly dance' differently.

If I hadn't taken those ridiculous short lessons at a community center 30 years ago I would not have decided to use simple belly dance moves to counteract the effects of a very serious accident ten years ago for which my doctor was only offering pain killers as a remedy. Do folks a favor and get it out there.

You said what I was thinking. I'm no expert, since I haven't lived or travelled in the ME, but I've been told that BD evolved from social dancing, and that in the ME, women will dance together and/or for one another, even just tying a tea-towel around their hips, and they'll just have fun. Isn't that what BD comes from? And isn't getting a group of women at a party to have fun trying it out perhaps truer to the roots of BD than is the public performance, the competition number, or the artistic interpretive piece?

Totally agree with you Ainsley!!!!!

I am very upfront at the beginning of my mini-lesson that what I am going to teach is just the barest whiff of what they would get in just the first class of a 6-week session of my Beginning Belly Dance class. I usually teach a back and forth shimmy, an up and down shimmy, hip lift, hip drop, and maybe throw in an up figure 8 if there's time. They don't even get to travel, so I don't know how anyone in their right mind would think that they could now go out and perform belly dance. In fact, because of the fact that it's combined with me performing, they can easily see how there's much, much more to it than what I've taught them. Like many of the others, the usual response is not "this is easy, I'm a Belly Dancer now!" but "Jeeeeze, this is so much harder than I thought it would be!"

As far as the zagahreet, you would be surprised how many people I've run into who associate it with terrorists and violence, because it's the the only context they've ever heard it in from news clips. We may "overuse" the zagarheet, but I'm glad to have the opportunity to educate Middle America that it's an exclamation of joy and celebration, not destruction.

Almost every dancer I know offers these packages, many of whom have the highest of professional and ethical standards. To suggest that they (and I) are a bunch of money-hungry shills looking for an easy buck is frankly insulting.

I think the integrity is largely based on how it's being taught. If someone gives the impression that the people are instantly performance ready dancers, that is a problem. However, since you can do social belly dancing, I don't see the harm in introducing it at a party. Many large cities have "dance nights" where people learn a few moves from swing, ballroom, or even bhangra. I don't think they're left with the impression that they're dancers of that genre.

Frankly, I think part of the problem with the way bellydance is taught in North America is that we overemphasize the possibility of performance, creating students for whom that is the primary goal, when the dance can be just as satisfying used exclusively for social purposes, or for exercise, or what-have-you. That's the flip side of this debate. Why not encourage an understanding that the dance has both performance and social possibilities? These types of gigs are a way to do that.

I really like that point.

Originally Posted by Ainsley

Similarly, bellydance can be a performance art or something average people do a little of for fun at parties, and I think part of the reason mini-lesson events are so well-received in North America is because many people lack any kind of social dancing framework and it's nice to be able to do something on the dance floor other than rock back and forth on your feet.

I stepped away for a few hours and there are so many responses to this thread. But this one really jumped out at me! Really couldn't agree more

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

There are people on the discussion board for the Weight Watchers article (http://www.bhuz.com/forum/health-fit...nce-story.html) thinking they learned belly dancing in their Zumba classes.

Wow. That's an exaggeration. The message on the WW board said the poster had learned some bellydance moves at her class. Another poster said she had done some bellydance at Zumba as well -- and then five or six people came out of nowhere to say they had danced for one or more years, and that it was fun. Then other posters traded names of DVDs, and a few people popped up to recommend dance classes, not DVDs. A tiny percentage of people on that message string thought they "learned" bellydance in Zumba. And since there are a lot of different flavors of Zumba instructors out there, for all we know, somebody actually had one who also bellydances!

Originally Posted by Khalilah

I don't see the point in holding my knowledge hostage simply because of venue. If someone wants to learn how to do a few moves - for whatever reason - and they are paying me or my venue (like a restaurant set), I'm certainly not going to say no. This is a social dance (added: with the exception of stage productions, but I don't believe that's what we're talking about here), and I'd rather teach moves to as many people as possible so that, maybe, the next time they go to a Middle Eastern restaurant, or are guests at another party where bellydance is incorporated, they feel like they can really participate in a meaningful way (not just doing a stupid bump-n-grind to the music because they don't know how to shimmy).

How do you reconcile this with the legion of wannabe-pros out there who have convinced themselves they are doing a public service by offering to do gigs that should be compensated for free? Isn't that the same philosophy? By offering to dance without pay at a restaurant or party (not talking about academic outreach for schools or charity events), aren't they putting a product out there so that more people can see a performance at a venue that wouldn't or couldn't normally afford one? They are bringing the dance to an audience that might not have had the chance to experience it and learn about it otherwise, too. IMHO, this is basically undercutting teachers--it's giving away professional content at below market value.

Originally Posted by mahsati

Maybe there is a difference of definition at work here?

Mahsati, no, I am not talking about gigs like the ones you and Samira Shuruk are advocating where the dancer has prepared a complete presentation. I'm talking about, "Hee, hee! Let's all belly dance now, and you can show this to your husbands and boyfriends later!", which amounts to only steps #1, 6, and 10 of your method.

Originally Posted by Ainsley

Frankly, I think part of the problem with the way bellydance is taught in North America is that we overemphasize the possibility of performance, creating students for whom that is the primary goal, when the dance can be just as satisfying used exclusively for social purposes, or for exercise, or what-have-you. That's the flip side of this debate. Why not encourage an understanding that the dance has both performance and social possibilities? These types of gigs are a way to do that.

yes!!! dance is social to, not just to be done by highly trained professionals! Any dance forum! I have done parties with mini lesson with both bellydance and hula. People want to see the performance but its a party, they want to get up and dance too. What are you going to tell them? "no you can't dance unless you've have years of training, you just sit there and watch"
For my friend baby shower she had a salsa dancer come and preform, after that she taught us the basic salsa steps. We had a lot of fun. But not I don't think I'm now really to enter a ballroom competition. ..l;,

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Mahsati, no, I am not talking about gigs like the ones you and Samira Shuruk are advocating where the dancer has prepared a complete presentation. I'm talking about, "Hee, hee! Let's all belly dance now, and you can show this to your husbands and boyfriends later!", which amounts to only steps #1, 6, and 10 of your method.

It sounds to me, then, that your complaint about mini lessons is that some dancers do them with little forethought or in a skimpy presentation. And I think this has been brought up before... when we talk about dancers who are teaching who probably should not be teaching, or performing when they should not be performing. Yes?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Mahsati, no, I am not talking about gigs like the ones you and Samira Shuruk are advocating where the dancer has prepared a complete presentation. I'm talking about, "Hee, hee! Let's all belly dance now, and you can show this to your husbands and boyfriends later!", which amounts to only steps #1, 6, and 10 of your method.

Don't you dance at parties or clubs? Do you only dance in a style that you've had years of professional training in?

Originally Posted by Shalimah

You said what I was thinking. I'm no expert, since I haven't lived or travelled in the ME, but I've been told that BD evolved from social dancing, and that in the ME, women will dance together and/or for one another, even just tying a tea-towel around their hips, and they'll just have fun. Isn't that what BD comes from? And isn't getting a group of women at a party to have fun trying it out perhaps truer to the roots of BD than is the public performance, the competition number, or the artistic interpretive piece?

Except the women in the Middle East are exploiting a feature of their own culture that they all already have lifetime familiarity with. If they are goofing around and teaching each other a new step or two, that is not the same thing as introducing the dance to a foreign population. It's like the difference between playing Amro Diab's latest album for someone who's been listening to him for fifteen years and playing it for someone who's never heard Arabic pop music before. The implications are substantially different.

Originally Posted by laura 2

Almost every dancer I know offers these packages, many of whom have the highest of professional and ethical standards. To suggest that they (and I) are a bunch of money-hungry shills looking for an easy buck is frankly insulting.

I have never accused anyone of being a shill. I am asking the question of whether continuing to present this style of performance to the public damages the integrity of the dance in the long run. I don't see how it's any different from a dozen similar conversations on Bhuz about whether BDSS or bellygrams on the local scale are having the effect of hurting more than they're helping.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

How do you reconcile this with the legion of wannabe-pros out there who have convinced themselves they are doing a public service by offering to do gigs that should be compensated for free? Isn't that the same philosophy? By offering to dance without pay at a restaurant or party (not talking about academic outreach for schools or charity events), aren't they putting a product out there so that more people can see a performance at a venue that wouldn't or couldn't normally afford one? They are bringing the dance to an audience that might not have had the chance to experience it and learn about it otherwise, too. IMHO, this is basically undercutting teachers--it's giving away professional content at below market value.

Are we talking undercutters here, or are we talking about the type of gig where some technique is taught? I totally agree that undercutters often bring a lower level of knowledge/talent/etc. to the table and harm the business of reputable dancers in their area.

If I am working one of these gigs, I am being compensated - at fair market value - and sharing what knowledge is easy to digest from this dance - example: a hip cirlce, hip drop, etc. Again, as others have noted in this thread, once they see the performance and the skill set as a whole, they should not come away thinking they can throw on an airport special, or Bella for that matter, and do what I do.

But what is the problem with teaching some proper movement if they are paying for it?

I love working these gigs and appreciate when, down the line, I see some of these women come into any of our local restaurants and participate in the social aspect of the dance in a way that is not embarassing to them or me.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I have never accused anyone of being a shill. I am asking the question of whether continuing to present this style of performance to the public damages the integrity of the dance in the long run. I don't see how it's any different from a dozen similar conversations on Bhuz about whether BDSS or bellygrams on the local scale are having the effect of hurting more than they're helping.

So you don't have an issue with the mini-lesson itself, just poorly done ones? Honestly, I'm a little confused about just what your issue is. Unless there's a teacher in your neck of the woods advertising "Instant Belly Dancer" parties, most participants I've seen personally would never get the idea that the dance is nothing but MORE challenging than they ever dreamed, not less. Hopefully, they also learn that it's a heckuva lot more fun than they'd imagined as well, and will sign up for regular classes.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I'm almost beginning to wonder if this kind of gig didn't evolve to camouflage the fact that a lot of wannabe-pro dancers really don't have the skill/talent/charisma to entertain a passive Western audience for an hour any other way. (Not that this is entirely our fault. American audiences have been conditioned to have very short attention spans, particularly when the subject is "foreign stuff.")

Honestly, I don't even think somebody as brilliant as Aziza could keep the average American audience entertained for an hour! They say the average act in a play is 20 minutes long because this is how long most adult attention spans are. Same holds true for movie scenes.

That being said, I think there are some ignorant dancers out there who would rather fill an hour than explain to their clients that a 20-minute show might make more sense. Virtually every time I book a gig, I have no problem selling a shorter set. But if a client wants an hour of aimless wiggling, then all the power to them - they'll probably wish they listened when their guests start hitting the buffet line at the 20-minute mark.

Back to the topic, I also do think there's a legitimate market for these lesson/show gigs. Some people really love hands-on activity and enjoy learning a new skill, even if they never use it again. My boyfriend and the rest of his HR team had to take a salsa lesson as part of one of those cheesy corporate icebreaking outings. Though he's never done salsa since then, he raved about how cool it was to try something new. Same goes for one of my friends, who recently attended a party at a rock climbing gym. I would LOVE to attend a bachelorette party that didn't involve a male stripper or getting trashed. It's a fun icebreaker, a nice alternative to the usual activities, and if guests develop a new appreciation for BD, then great!

I know that stupid people are definitely out there, but the majority of clients I deal with are smart enough to form their own opinions on belly dance and not to become One-Week Wonders with anything they learn at my parties. Generally speaking, "the consumer" is far more savvy than we give them credit for.

Originally Posted by laura 2

Like many of the others, the usual response is not "this is easy, I'm a Belly Dancer now!" but "Jeeeeze, this is so much harder than I thought it would be!"

Yes. I think any layperson who has stumbled their way through layering a hip shimmy on top of a hip circle will probably be the first to chime in if any of their idiot friends someday makes a demeaning remark about belly dance. Many people respect the dance even further when they learn that BD is incredible challenging to learn.

We love the parties and the mini lessons, we love the happy people who haven't been bitten by the 'performance' bug yet, we love the low-stress venue that is so appreciative of hard-earned skills, we love the health-compromised people who come to the mini-classes at the hospital trying to regain some of their motor skills, we love the blushing bride-to-be and her raucous entourage of bachlorettes, we love the little girls (and boys!) fascinated with the costumes and new movements, we love the people who thank us for helping them make their event memorable. Happy, yes! And we have no intention of giving it up just because some wanna-bes might be doing it as well.. follow that train of thought and we'd give up teaching, performing, and breathing. Our focus is us, we cannot control what others do, therefore we don't worry about them either.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I'm saying you can create fun and audience participation and awareness of the beauty of the art form without having to shuck some jive about "Now we're all going to learn how to shimmy!"

OK. Now I'm about to make the confession to end all confessions.

But I began my lifelong love of belly dance after.....drumroll.....seeing a Shakira music video.....and.....wait for it....attending a "let's learn how to shimmy!" party that was offered at my college by a local instructor.

These silly little things can produce positive outcomes. Would mainstream society appreciate belly dance more if we didn't expose them to it?

Originally Posted by tigerb

Wow. That's an exaggeration....A tiny percentage of people on that message string thought they "learned" bellydance in Zumba. And since there are a lot of different flavors of Zumba instructors out there, for all we know, somebody actually had one who also bellydances!

I was using the example to counter the notion that it was extremely rare for someone to walk away from a partial lesson with the wrong idea. The ones who posted in the WW thread only represented the visible portion of participants at that one web site who made the effort to say something in a public forum. (BTW, if there is a legitimate belly dancer teaching Zumba, why is she teaching belly dance in a Zumba class anyway? That's not fair to either discipline.)

How many dancers in any given town take six lessons and start soliciting gigs? Not a lot. Many continue to study with an understanding of the work required to perform in the future. Some never have any designs on performing. Unfortunately, you only need one bad apple to spoil the barrel. Why facilitate opportunities to get the wrong idea?

Originally Posted by tigerb

It sounds to me, then, that your complaint about mini lessons is that some dancers do them with little forethought or in a skimpy presentation. And I think this has been brought up before... when we talk about dancers who are teaching who probably should not be teaching, or performing when they should not be performing. Yes?

That's definitely part of the equation, but the original comments were directed toward the appropriateness of encouraging the illusion that you can "teach" this dance in a one-shot class at a party.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

And we have no intention of giving it up just because some wanna-bes might be doing it as well.. follow that train of thought and we'd give up teaching, performing, and breathing. Our focus is us, we cannot control what others do, therefore we don't worry about them either.

Yes, yes, yes!!!!

And wannabes motivate me to get out there and to keep improving upon my personal best. That's all there is to it.

I do these in my capacity as a TEACHER, that is why they call me. Yoga teachers do them, tap teachers, you name it, it is a fun way to intruduce our dance form at a low key event and leave a nice impression on people who may have never seen belly dance.
As for leaving a hip scarf? You can buy them any place, I use it for marketing and FUN! IA personal choice as to how I run my business and what kind of gigs I do (some as a pro dancer, some as a teacher all PAID!)

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Why facilitate opportunities to get the wrong idea?

Trouble is, many of these opportunities come from a 100% benign source.

One of the most aggressive undercutters I know literally became a "professional" dancer by hanging out outside of the Turkish restaurant where one of my first teachers performed. She stared through the window at my teacher and emulated her moves. Shortly thereafter, she began performing at local clubs.

Was my teacher at fault? No. She was just doing her job.

Same goes for "Six-Week Wonders" who attend a handful of classes and walk away thinking they're ready to teach. The same teacher who inadvertantly created a monster might have also produced a dozen star-caliber dancers who waited until they were ready to go pro.

Unfortunately, where there's a will and a whackjob, there is a way

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

That's definitely part of the equation, but the original comments were directed toward the appropriateness of encouraging the illusion that you can "teach" this dance in a one-shot class at a party.

Good grief, no one here has said they give or sell the illusion of teaching the the whole, half or 1/16th of the dance, much less how to "dance for your sultan", in a mini lesson. Like many others have already said here, they show a couple of movements and people are told up front that's all it is.

Honestly it sounds like you have a beef with someone in your area that is doing this, though. If that's the case then yes integrity is in question. Otherwise I say if you're presenting it for what it is in a fun yet appropriate manner, why would integrity be an issue?

One of the most aggressive undercutters I know literally became a "professional" dancer by hanging out outside of the Turkish restaurant where one of my first teachers performed. She stared through the window at my teacher and emulated her moves. Shortly thereafter, she began performing at local clubs.

So she'd stand outside the restaurant (like on the street) and watch? Why didn't a restaurant worker shoo her away for loitering?

Originally Posted by toria_dances

Don't you dance at parties or clubs? Do you only dance in a style that you've had years of professional training in?

Social dancing and being paid to teach dancing are two different ideas, as are social dancing and dancing as a student during a dance lesson. Unlike hula (which has been an interesting study in how to reclaim your respect from a misinformed public), salsa, and the other dances you mentioned upthread, we have baggage they don't. Nobody takes a single Latin dance lesson and thinks, "I should call up Tom Bergeron and let him know I'm ready to be paired with a celebrity on next season's 'Dancing with the Stars.'" People already understand the amount of training and talent required to be a professional ballroom dancer. We, OTOH, are still in the intellectual hole of being thought of as pretty girls who wiggle around in those sexy outfits. The GP understands that the fancy tricks like quarter flipping require a lot of practice, but the rest of the dance is sort of off their radar. To them, the costume makes the dance...and...ooh, look, now I can make my coin scarf jingle, too!

We simply don't have the luxury of being taken seriously as an artistic discipline in the minds of the GP--and every time we pitch the idea that this is a social dance and everybody can do it, we're cutting off our noses to spite our faces. Everyone can do SOME of this dance, but not everyone can be good at it, and even of that group, not everyone can be a professional at it. It seems like a lot of posters are trying to defend the idea that teaching the dance in a non-classroom format sufficiently convinces people that it's difficult to do, and that garners us some respect that justifies the means. I guess my response for that is, "Where is the data to show that the mini-lesson gig helps us more than a straight performance gig would? Do we get more students in class wanting to start over and learn in a formal setting after them? Do these parties result in more referral, high-quality performance gigs? How many students walk away from the party experience discouraged from ever taking a class or with some other negative experience? What percentage of the participants dismiss the event with no substantial improvement in their perception of us? And do we accidentally create a few unqualified monsters along the way?"

Seriously, I'm asking the dancers who do a lot of these gigs--other than the fact that you get paid for them, can you quantify the benefit? Philosophically speaking, why don't we as a dance community keep track of such information?

Originally Posted by indigostars

So she'd stand outside the restaurant (like on the street) and watch? Why didn't a restaurant worker shoo her away for loitering?

Yes, she would stand on the sidewalk and look on. I'm sure somebody from the restaurant told her to go away after this happened a few times. She also followed my teacher to her nightclub gig and did the same thing. I know my teacher's husband confronted her at least once. It was very, very weird.

So for those of you who have regular gigs.....you never know who may be lurking behind that potted plant .w.:

Originally Posted by TexasRuya

Honestly it sounds like you have a beef with someone in your area that is doing this, though. If that's the case then yes integrity is in question. Otherwise I say if you're presenting it for what it is in a fun yet appropriate manner, why would integrity be an issue?

No, I don't have a personal issue with anyone who does these in my area. I don't even have a personal issue with MC and BDSS, although I don't agree with their philosophy either. On principle, I think the mini-lessons are a bad idea, and obviously I'm in the minority. I feel it's contradictory for someone to say that they're confident no one would misunderstand the idea that they were supposed to use what they learned in a mini-lesson and then turn around and give them a costume item to wear...for the dancing they're not going to do, I guess. And, although my other original point got lost many posts ago, I think it's quite weird to teach something from a foreign language you don't speak.

There have been a lot of excellent points made here (and as I also approach these in a way similar to what Samira et al described, have never walked away feeling like the party goers thought they now "knew how to dance," have garnered students and/or more serious presentations from such events, and think that when done well, they can be generally a good and social thing. I also join some of the others in being somewhat put off by the implication that I'm somehow lacking in integrity or demeaning my art form by doing these types of gigs, but I guess that's my problem....)

Given how well others have put things, I don't really have a lot new to add and don't want to rehash all that's already been said except to say this:

Tourbeau, I respect your opinion thought process, and definitely think as an art and an industry, we need to discuss things on which we won't always agree. I admit I find myself feeling a little curious about just where your vigorous argument is coming from on this one. If your aim was to play devil's advocate and/or rile people up and get a heated exchange going, you've succeeded. If you honestly do feel this way, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and my advice would be...just don't do these kinds of gigs yourself then. I don't think you're exactly the tip of an iceburg of opinion nor very likely to turn many to your way of thinking on this, but you certainly don't have to do any kind of gig you don't want to do. :)

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Seriously, I'm asking the dancers who do a lot of these gigs--other than the fact that you get paid for them, can you quantify the benefit? Philosophically speaking, why don't we as a dance community keep track of such information?

I don't teach a regular class anymore, so I have no way of tracking class attendance. However, these gigs have resulted in quite a bit of repeat business and referrals for me. Quality gigs, too, since I'm a flagrant overcutter in my area.

And abstractly, there is a huge reward in the compliments people pay during and after the gig. Like I said previously, it makes me feel good to know that people walk away from my shows and lessons with a new appreciation for the dance. IMO, these are the gradual baby steps we need to take toward a successful mainstreaming of belly dance.

It just seems like you want to put this dance under lock and key - and it just doesn't belong there.