Thread: Mini lesson = mini integrity?

with that reasoning we shouldnt teach beginners classes period.

and when people at a party say "ooh can you teach me that", referring them to my classes is exactly what i do. i agree with that. i get annoyed with the "cant ylou just quickly show me", just as much.

this isnt impromptu teaching at a party where you are hired to perform. these kind of mini's (in my case usually in the afternoon), the teaching part is exactly what i'm hired FOR. the performing is the extra, not the other way around. they want to do something fun together. they want the class/activity more than the show.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I'm sorry, but I'm far too cynical to assume the average gal at a party understands that owning a hip scarf doesn't put her halfway to being Shakira. There are too many people out there presenting themselves as professional belly dancers who aren't qualified to do so, and a horrifying number of them are getting away with it.

"Now we're all going to learn how to shimmy!" Do your routine and leave them with the curiosity of wondering how you did that with your body. Let them get up and dance with you and figure out by themselves that it isn't as easy as it looks, and when they say, "Can you teach me how to do that?", respond by saying, "Sure, I'd be happy to, every Tuesday night from 7:00-8:00." .

YES YES YES YES. going to start another thread on this

Originally Posted by Ainsley

Frankly, I think part of the problem with the way bellydance is taught in North America is that we overemphasize the possibility of performance, creating students for whom that is the primary goal, when the dance can be just as satisfying used exclusively for social purposes, or for exercise, or what-have-you. That's the flip side of this debate. Why not encourage an understanding that the dance has both performance and social possibilities? .

data:

i do around 10-15 of these anually. i pass about 5-10 of them off to colleagues.

there are on average 7-20 people at these teaching gigs. I dont keep track of how many new beginners students they create, as we have 8- 10 weekly classes mostly all full, and i've stopped tracking/asking where people know us from. i did that for a few years, and our advertising machine is running smoothly for now and i had no business reasons to look into it right now. i might do another round of tracking back our new comers next year as the beginners were a bit slow and i might wanna re-direct some of my advertising budget. and besides, if they come to class afterwards is a nice extra, not a necessity, i was well paid for these classes, they are not advertising, they are work.

what i do keep track of is where the people that hire me for these bachelorette things found me, and about 1/3 come from people that attended another one I or one of my colleagues taught.

i dont leave behind a cheap hipscarf, i leave behind a voucher for classes or a nice morocan teaglass (the one the bride just drank from). and lots of businesscards.

Just want to say that I love this idea Artemisa - classier and good business sense! I've never been convinced by the leaving the hip scarf thing and prefer this idea.

I think there are mini gigs and mini gigs. I am slightly less comfortable with the shimmy party angle, and can totally understand where the OP is coming from in terms of concerns. On the other hand, I do think that people dancing socially and at home is a tradition in this dance and for that kind of thing I'd be tempted to play up the social dance of the Middle East angle.

You've got to cater to your audience but its also a good opportunity to be an ambassador for our dance and you can play it so that there's quality information in there (you've just got to be clever about how you convey it). Mini parties/tasters are often a very good recruiting ground for students - I know of at least one teacher who has a high proportion of committed students who started with her through events like this.

Just to comment quickly on the "hula and salsa don't have baggage" subtopic that appeared -- speaking from my knowledge of hula and Hawai'i, the former CERTAINLY does. It is still seen (in mainland American culture) as a "sexy" dance form, as opposed to the cultural and religious form it is. It is often conflated with Tahitian dance (which is completely different!). It's watered down at tourist attractions, where they teach simple steps without contextualizing the difficulty and history of the actual dance. And, in addition to these problems (some of which are quite similar to the ones that bellydance faces), it's the dance of a conquered nation, and these demeaning views are oppressed by the (usually white) conquerors.

Okay, derail and rant done with. Continue about your day!

Originally Posted by Devora

Our Western society offers no comparable avenue for women to celebrate their femininity together with music and dance. It's such a joy to see some of these women, most of whom would never venture to take a bellydancing class - smiling and laughing with their friends, and experiencing pleasure and pride (with a bit of embarrassment and a lot of fun) while moving their bodies in ways they never have before.

I think there is a great deal of integrity in being willing to introduce all women to the joy of this liberating, beautiful and dignified dance form, whether or not they choose to someday take it to the next level.

-Devora

[Please note that this comment is not meant to negate that men are certainly also performers of this dance.]

Very nicely put!

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I admit it. I hate these one-time party/mini-lesson gigs. I won't do them on principle...

I had to laugh at this post purely because it's so succinctly disdainful and yet, oddly endearing, right on the button but far from the mark.

From someone who once earned all her income from teaching and dancing, I have to say that such gigs, no matter their inane nature and searing want of integrity, provide good pay and most people with a modicum of business sense would not ignore them for the expediency of honour. I didn't have that luxury.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

In this area the top performers ARE selective and don't do "embarrass Uncle Bob" gigs or "sexy wallpaper" gigs. Quite frankly they 1) don't interest me in the least and 2) aren't quality gigs- they don't PAY, they don't have the budget. The busiest dancers around here are the ones who CAN be selective about their gigs. ..g.:
When I have the opportunity to get paid well AND educate, even in a small sound bite sort of way I take it.

This.
It is, in my opinion, plain ridiculous to equate the typical mini-lesson gig (the ones I've seen, anyway) with the "embarrassing" or "sexy wallpaper" gigs. Again, you're welcome to your opinions of various kind of gigs, but to plenty of other dancers, equating those things is insulting.

As far as quantification of how many students/offshoot gigs I've recieved over the years...I know within a range--it's more than XX, probably less than XXX. I keep records, but it's hard to quantify something like this for sure. For one thing, I run a school at which I'm not the only teacher (in fact, the majority of our level one/beginner classes are taught by my other instructors), so I don't see everyone who come to class. Also, if I do a gig far away from my own area or talk to a potential student for whom my school's classes won't work/aren't convenient, I will give the name of another teacher I know and trust in their area. I know I have had other instructors thank me for sending them students in this way, but I have no way of tracking that. Thus...don't have a ton of detail...and, as another poster mentioned, even if I *did*, I probably wouldn't post it here because that's my proprietary business information.

I think one thing that's going on here is, you've managed to pick a crabby hair with a lot of your fellow dancers because of your (perceived or real) tone. You may not be intending it this way, but your posts are coming off to some as insulting and questioning the integrity/ethics/cultural sensitivity/commitment to honoring the artform/intelligence of those who do mini lesson gigs, many of whom are very ethical, committed dancers of very high integrity and high position in their communities. That makes dancers feel defensive. Disagreements in terms of taste or facts among dancers on topics happen all the time and are healthy. In this artform, though, we already have to deal with plenty of misconceptions, biases, questioned motives, and at times poor treatment (from the Western GP but also the ME population). When "one of our own" seems to go on the offensive and question our motives and integrity, I think it feels more personal and can be harder to take.

I have no problem with the fact that you hate these kinds of gigs and don't want to do them. I'm also sorry you apparently have not had good experiences with them in your area because they really can be quite wonderful for many of us.

(continued)

I'll confess, I'm among those who became a little confused about your arguments as they began with "principle" and ended in the "show me the money/data" realm. I'm not making any assumptions about you or your motive based on that, but I am just a little confused by it and wished I understood better where you're actually going with this. Was your opinion somewhat changed on the principle bit based on what you read hear and are now bringing up your secondary objections? Are you just trying to sort through what you think? Are you just heck-bent on winning the argument so when one theme didn't work out you headed for another? (etc...) I don't know, and I don't necessarily need to, but, well, there it is.

Please know, I'm not trying to be snarky or snotty here...I know as I read through this it can seem a little like perhaps I'm snarking at you and that's not my intent. In part, I'm just mulling why this thread is so controversial on all ends....

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

The consumer is NOT stupid. The general public deserves far more credit than many of us give them. People are capable of extracting very positive things out of these silly gigs that some of us take for granted. And that, my friends, is what keeps me dancing!
:

Thank God somebody's said that! No, the public are not so stupid as we often think. I feel that most folks can and do recognise and see into this dance more than we give them credit for. We shouldn't presume that just because someone does not dance this dance or visit Bhuz, that they cannot see beyond the veil...so to speak.

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

(continued)

I'll confess, I'm among those who became a little confused about your arguments as they began with "principle" and ended in the "show me the money/data" realm.

I believe it's referred to as "moving the goalpost."

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

Thank God somebody's said that! No, the public are not so stupid as we often think. I feel that most folks can and do recognise and see into this dance more than we give them credit for. We shouldn't presume that just because someone does not dance this dance or visit Bhuz, that they cannot see beyond the veil...so to speak.

ITA. Some of the most common comments I hear from other women after performances (and, granted, I'm speaking of performances here and not mini-lessons, as the latter doesn't apply to my current situation) are along the lines of, "Oh, I wish I could do that," or "Wow, you are so flexible/supple/coordinated/etc. I could never dance like that." So, I agree that many people see this dance as challenging and skillful and don't assume it's easy and they could simply jump in and start doing it. That's been my experience, anyway.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

Thank God somebody's said that! No, the public are not so stupid as we often think. I feel that most folks can and do recognise and see into this dance more than we give them credit for. We shouldn't presume that just because someone does not dance this dance or visit Bhuz, that they cannot see beyond the veil...so to speak.

I've actually been meaning to write my own commentary/blog about this, since it's kind of a recurring theme I've noticed. It has always amazed me how people shortchange their own dancing under the assumption that "the GP doesn't know better and doesn't care." If we all stopped doing bachelorette party gigs because we don't know how to handle the "minus one," then think how many intelligent, open-minded people would miss out on an opportunity to positively connect with a very empowering, uplifting art form.

I believe there's a way to cater to the public's expectations of a BD show without pandering to their ignorance. If that makes any sense....

Addendum to my last post:

We have all of these conversations about the intricacies of Arab culture and how we shouldn't view "the Middle East" as a big monolith of people who all think and act exactly the same.

Isn't it just as harmful to lump "Americans," or "The General Public," or "The West" into the same all-encompassing blanket category? Is our own culture not made up of freethinking individuals with different value systems and the capacity to form their own opinions?

This is one inconsistency that has just begun to bug the living crap out of me

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

We, OTOH, are still in the intellectual hole of being thought of as pretty girls who wiggle around in those sexy outfits. The GP understands that the fancy tricks like quarter flipping require a lot of practice, but the rest of the dance is sort of off their radar. To them, the costume makes the dance...and...ooh, look, now I can make my coin scarf jingle, too!

?

Wrong. All the mini gigs/workshops/tasters I ever did, left my clients exhausted and realising that there was more to this dance than just making a coin belt jingle and wiggling their arses. And yes, a lot of them resolved to attend regular classes because they were intrigued about learning more.

I too started to learn this dance through seeing it done on TV, and done badly I might add. Some old Carry On movie when I was a kid. Over the years I saw more of it, and better quality. Had I ever had the chance to attend a 'taster' sesson, I've have jumped on it.

So now that we're four pages deep into this thing, let's regroup.

What has everybody extracted from this conversation?

1. I do plan on rethinking my initial idea to leave behind a hip scarf for the GOH at my bachelorette parties - at least until the economy gets a bit better and I can justify marking up my prices to accomodate leaving trinkets behind.

2. Maybe I'll burn a different music mix to include more classical music, less gay disco and robots farting.

3. I love my girly parties more than ever before! This thread and everybody's insightful responses have only solidified my opinion on the matter.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Addendum to my last post:

We have all of these conversations about the intricacies of Arab culture and how we shouldn't view "the Middle East" as a big monolith of people who all think and act exactly the same.

Isn't it just as harmful to lump "Americans," or "The General Public," or "The West" into the same all-encompassing blanket category? Is our own culture not made up of freethinking individuals with different value systems and the capacity to form their own opinions?

This is one inconsistency that has just begun to bug the living crap out of me

You're on form today!! Yes, yes and YES.

Originally Posted by Shalimah

ITA. Some of the most common comments I hear from other women after performances (and, granted, I'm speaking of performances here and not mini-lessons, as the latter doesn't apply to my current situation) are along the lines of, "Oh, I wish I could do that," or "Wow, you are so flexible/supple/coordinated/etc. I could never dance like that." So, I agree that many people see this dance as challenging and skillful and don't assume it's easy and they could simply jump in and start doing it. That's been my experience, anyway.

My few friends who have tried belly dancing with the mindset that it was easy quickly learned otherwise in their baby beginner class. I imagine that a mini-lesson could do the same.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

You're on form today!! Yes, yes and YES.

I'm glad somebody else is on the same wavelength, here

Very much in agreement here too!

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I've actually been meaning to write my own commentary/blog about this, since it's kind of a recurring theme I've noticed. It has always amazed me how people shortchange their own dancing under the assumption that "the GP doesn't know better and doesn't care." ....

And it makes me wonder if such mindsets are not the scrabblings of those wishing to make themselves a little more important than the rest of us poor hicks who stoop to trash the art of the 'Dhanse' with integrity-trashing hen night belt-discarding hoe downs. Sorry but that's what the OP's message smacks of. The more I've read of the thread, the more I'm thinking this.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I'm glad somebody else is on the same wavelength, here

You have no right being so damned goodlooking AND so eloquent! ..g.:

Originally Posted by indigostars

My few friends who have tried belly dancing with the mindset that it was easy quickly learned otherwise in their baby beginner class. I imagine that a mini-lesson could do the same.

This, too.

So many of us have high attrition rates in our classes partly because of this. I'm sure we've all had several students who walked in thinking they could master "the moves" in just a few simple classes, stumbled through basic hip circles and Egyptian steps, and went AWOL after 3-4 lessons.

When I taught at my local dance studio, about 75% of my students were teens who had ballet and jazz training. They walked in very cocky and quickly became humbled when I started throwing undulations and figure eights at them a few weeks later. None of them left my class with any inclination to "go pro."

I think part of the problem is when beginning teachers place more emphasis on performing than on the overall classroom experience and its mundane warm-ups, drills and cooldowns.

What an interesting thread! I haven't done these parties myself although I have been approached...and now I have lots of food for thought as to how to structure. I thought Tourbeau's original post was provocatively useful and I feel very assured by the responses of the Bhuzzers whose principles I very much respect. *muah*, ladies.

All I have to offer to the convo was a response to the opinions about Zumba & bellydance that Tourbeau threw out there.

I am an AFAA certified instructcor and I teach a Zumba class. When I took the training I was appalled at what passed for BD in the "bellydance" track. My friend leaned over and said " You better start teaching class so you can fix this!!" LOL

As long as 70% of the music/style in your class is Latin, as an intrcutor you are free to use your own music & choreography. That's why the content & quality of a live Zumba class varies from person to person. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only BDer who teaches Zumba on these boards. My class mix is in fact, mostly Latin with my own original "Bollywood block" and one shimmy drill thrown in. I assure you that they are quite impressed with the amount of training it would take them to become "real bellydancers"! I also don't think that shimmying is a sacred art exclusive to us ;) Believe me, when I see what passes for "world dance" chorey on some of these training DVDs, I KNOW I am doing us a favour while being quite realistic about the difference btw a dance cardio class & proper beginner class ( which I also teach outside the gym).

Hope that helps.

It sounds like these mini-lessons have a lot of good aspects that regular weekly classes could use.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

I consider our business metrics and understanding of our market to be proprietary and powerful information. What I post here on the board is my gift to the board. Actual metrics about ANY of our business process are not something we share with anyone. Please tell me why you feel you are entitled to demand this kind of information without providing anything in return? If in your opinion metrics ought to be kept and shared, do so.

Other posters have defended their choice to do these gigs with very vague qualifiers, so I asked if anyone could address the issue with data. "Does anyone have numbers?" is not a cheap strategy to win an argument. It's an attempt to get away from emotions and perceptions and focus on facts. I certainly had no premonition of what information would come forward, and honestly believed someone would present hard numbers that would bolster the other side. I'm really quite amused that people are responding to it like it's an underhanded flamewar technique when I thought it was rather like Chris Darden asking OJ to try on the glove. BTW, I appreciate the dancers who do keep records and came forward with the data they had, even if it didn't paint as complete a picture as I'd hoped.

Nevertheless, Bhuz is filled with conversations on pricing strategies, class attendance, frequency of gigging, set planning, and leads for performance music in very frank terms for subjects of such a proprietary nature. How would this be different? (Incidentally, I've already shared my metrics in the first line of the post--I did zero of these gigs in the last six months, and by implication, saw no positive or negative effect directly attributable to them.)

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

I think one thing that's going on here is, you've managed to pick a crabby hair with a lot of your fellow dancers because of your (perceived or real) tone. You may not be intending it this way, but your posts are coming off to some as insulting and questioning the integrity/ethics/cultural sensitivity/commitment to honoring the artform/intelligence of those who do mini lesson gigs, many of whom are very ethical, committed dancers of very high integrity and high position in their communities. That makes dancers feel defensive. Disagreements in terms of taste or facts among dancers on topics happen all the time and are healthy. In this artform, though, we already have to deal with plenty of misconceptions, biases, questioned motives, and at times poor treatment (from the Western GP but also the ME population). When "one of our own" seems to go on the offensive and question our motives and integrity, I think it feels more personal and can be harder to take.

People keep coming back to this, and I've tried to explain it. I can say, "I don't agree with MC's decision to run BDSS the way he does." It doesn't mean I hate Miles or I have no respect for him. It doesn't mean I dislike Jillina and think she's a sellout. I understand that people do things for different reasons, and sometimes, even by their own admission, they do things for long-term benefit with lesser regard for the short term or vice versa. Sometimes they simply have a world view that's not the same as mine. That doesn't mean I'm right and they're wrong, or they're right and I'm wrong. We could be both right or both wrong in separate ways or to varying degrees. I can have a different opinion or experience from yours without it being an insult to you, but if someone believes I've set my sights on attacking them personally, then even the most sincere compliment will be interpreted as sarcasm. I have never accused anyone personally of having poor ethics, only that I choose to have different ones. It's pretty clear that this thread hit a nerve, but it's possible that there's a deeper reason for it than people finding my writing style abrasively pedantic.

The integrity of the dance as an art form is a function of all the little integrities of the people who do it, but it also exists on a higher level of its own importance. If I write "mini lesson = mini integrity?", I can mean it as "Does teaching taster lessons diminish the artistic value of the dance as a serious discipline because it presents a distorted view of what learning it entails to an inexperienced student body?", but if someone is going to insist I meant "Do dancers who teach mini lessons have crummy ethics?", I'm powerless to stop them. I can keep clarifying, but if they've already committed to the idea that I've insulted them, they'll keep reading what they want into what I write.

To those who have complained that the topic has become too diffuse, I apologize. Online conversations frequently drift. When I uploaded the first post, I didn't expect to go off on a tangent about small business ownership and keeping records to target your market more effectively, nor did I anticipate responding with a comment about the importance of not plagiarizing translations. I'm merely choosing to remark on the vast assortment of opposing ideas coming at me where I think I have something to add.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I believe it's referred to as "moving the goalpost."

No, it's referred to "being on the wrong end of a blunderbuss."

I've already said it's not a priority for me to be one of the top working dancers in my area, so I don't compete at that level. I am part of the larger dance community as a provider and consumer of services, so I'm still affected by industry trends, though. These are just my opinions, and I don't care if people think I'm a hyper-zealous, windmill-jousting, ethics nut. If a reader walked away from this conversation thinking, "I wonder if I should improve the way I present my hen parties" or "Maybe I should start keeping better records of how I'm running my dance career," it's not exactly the worst thing that could happen.

I believe there's a way to cater to the public's expectations of a BD show without pandering to their ignorance. If that makes any sense....

^^ ITA!

There's no obligation to 'dumb down'. I'm never quite sure why some people automatically assume that there is.

With a little time and careful thought, its always possible to inform and raise expectations, while making things fun.

From time to time, there will be the odd encounter with someone who is wilfully ignorant, but most people enjoy having their eyes opened, even if only a teeny tiny bit.

The number of times I have demonstrated and people have fed back that they loved it and 'had no idea it was so expressive and elegant'

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

And it makes me wonder if such mindsets are not the scrabblings of those wishing to make themselves a little more important than the rest of us poor hicks who stoop to trash the art of the 'Dhanse' with integrity-trashing hen night belt-discarding hoe downs. Sorry but that's what the OP's message smacks of. The more I've read of the thread, the more I'm thinking this.

I don't know. I do feel somewhat honored that this heated conversation all sprung from my mundane thread on the costuming forum. All I wanted to know was what all of you ladies like to wear for the teaching component when disseminating evil Nippletassel Gang propaganda to the gullible general public! I guess I'm just a troublemaker even when I'm being serious! ..l;,

It's funny, though, because we're always beating this dead horse about elevating our own dance form. But we never seem to follow through, and we don't even seem to know what we want, for that matter.

Personally, I would be content to dispel the myths, improve the overall caliber of performance opportunities and ensure fair pay for everyone. I think we should all work our spangled tuckuses off to be our personal best, and never stop learning. Do I want belly dance to become some "elite" high ahhhhhhrt like ballet or opera? Well, I'll just say I think we should be careful what we wish for, and leave it at that.

I don't know. Some people sneer at those of us who perform on the bellygram and private event circuit, and that's entirely their prerogative. IMNSHO, there IS something noble, powerful and touching about the fact that we bring happiness to other people, and usually on very special days of their lives. When I'm ready to retire from belly dance, I'll look back fondly upon all the times I brought friends and family together. I'm just not gonna sit there and hate myself because I never got to put on a non-sparkly costume and emote to Oum K for 3 hours in Carnegie Hall for a bunch of ahhhhhrt connoisseurs. (But if somebody else wants to achieve that in their dance lifetime, then by all means, giddy up).