Thread: Mini lesson = mini integrity?

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

You have no right being so damned goodlooking AND so eloquent! ..g.:

Can I print this out and hang this on my mirror? ..l;,

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

These are just my opinions, and I don't care if people think I'm a hyper-zealous, windmill-jousting, ethics nut.

I can't speak for anyone else, but, for myself, I am still confused as to what you see as ethically wrong about an introductory class session and performance in a special occasion setting. I don't intend to be obtuse on the subject - it just isn't clear to me what the specific issues are that you see as ethically questionable in this case.

If the issue is bad teaching, then that is an issue of teaching rather than venue/gig. If the issue is teaching in a private class setting, I am not sure how that is different from any beginner level introductory class. Is it the type of gig itself or the way that poor teachers may approach it?

If you have time, could you clarify which parts of this you see as ethically problematic? Thanks for your patience.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

So now that we're four pages deep into this thing, let's regroup.

What has everybody extracted from this conversation?

That just as in my own local area, highly respected, successful and ethical performers/teachers all across the world see these parties as a positive, enjoyable and worthy endeavor. I am quite proud to be counted among their number.

Honestly, I've rarely seen a thread on Bhuz with this much consensus in the 5 or 6 years I've been a member. If that's not an indication that I'm on the right track, I'm not sure what is.

BTW, I don't give away hip scarves, because the ones I sell are fairly high quality and I'd never make money giving them away. The GOH does get to wear one of my own hip scarves during the lesson, but I get it back afterwards. The only leave behind I do is that for every gig with a guest of honor, I give them a custom made souvenir birthday/anniversary/congrats card (with my branding on the back and my card inside, of course).

I am just bugged by the comparison to undercutting a few pages back...made no sense to me.

I respect your opinion to not do these parties - even to look down on those that do. It's your personal opinion and you have your reasons for forming it. I'm not interested in changing your mind.

I am seriously bugged at the insinuation that my logic for enjoying these parties myself (in addition to the fact that they bring in a very decent fee) is somehow comparable to undercutting and undermining other teachers. To me, that is a pretty direct path to an accusation of "crummy ethics" - and I work very hard to maintain a high standard for those in my community. So, yeah, my skin bristled a bit at that.

Originally Posted by laura 2

Honestly, I've rarely seen a thread on Bhuz with this much consensus in the 5 or 6 years I've been a member. If that's not an indication that I'm on the right track, I'm not sure what is.

I was just thinking the same thing!

In fact, after reading this thread, I'm ready to start marketing these gigs far more aggressively, because I want more of 'em ..g.:

Originally Posted by Khalilah

I am just bugged by the comparison to undercutting a few pages back...made no sense to me.

Yeah, I think it's ONLY undercutting if:

1. You offer a bachelorette party package for half the market price, with or without said trunk of nippletassel costumes for guests to play dress-up in.
2. You tack a 20-30 minute structured lesson to the end of your regular party set free of charge. It's aggravating to no end when clients say "Yeah, but Dancer X will perform for 45 minutes AND give all the women a mini-lesson at the end!" Then, the ball is in my court to sell them on my shorter set and ever-so-tactfully caution against the very real possibility of Dancer X Overkill.

If you charge a fair rate for a lesson plus a show, then I'm sorry, but I have no idea how anybody could call this undercutting

What I learned is that they seem to introduce a lot of important information, most of which I had use Bhuz to get. I don't recall my early teachers discussing the social aspect stuff, for instance.

While I think reflection is great and it's important to ask questions, you also really can't please everyone and not everyone is going to be on board with your opinion.

Thanks - it's obviously a touchy subject and I don't see the logic in how it fits here. Unercutting is undercutting and is pretty cut and dry. The further insinuation that hiring out for mini-lessons in addition to performance is somehow harming teachers in a given area. Since I don't have time or a venue to have regular classes, these mini-lessons and workshops are my opportunity to teach. If participants are interested in further learning, I refer them out to reputable teachers in my area. So again, how exactly is this harming teachers' regular business? I am actually doing my part to ADD to their business...

At the end of the day, these gigs are really quite fantastic for getting good information out to the GP, INCREASING our business (given repeat clients and further interest in regular classes) and a ton of fun. Again, if Dancers X, Y and Z don't like the gigs or just don't get it, ok - don't do 'em. But the picking away at those who have their own reasons for doing them has got me kind of confused.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

...
The integrity of the dance as an art form is a function of all the little integrities of the people who do it, but it also exists on a higher level of its own importance. If I write "mini lesson = mini integrity?", I can mean it as "Does teaching taster lessons diminish the artistic value of the dance as a serious discipline because it presents a distorted view of what learning it entails to an inexperienced student body?"...

It seems Tourbeau that you "approve" of how some people do it. But the general consensus that I've seen on these pages is that most of us are all teaching these gigs with similar intentions and methods.
If they felt "off" to you- maybe your methods were different?

Originally Posted by khadiya

^^ ITA!
There's no obligation to 'dumb down'. I'm never quite sure why some people automatically assume that there is.
With a little time and careful thought, its always possible to inform and raise expectations, while making things fun.
From time to time, there will be the odd encounter with someone who is wilfully ignorant, but most people enjoy having their eyes opened, even if only a teeny tiny bit.
The number of times I have demonstrated and people have fed back that they loved it and 'had no idea it was so expressive and elegant'

Khadiya- LOVELY! Yes! to everything you wrote!

Originally Posted by Khalilah

I am just bugged by the comparison to undercutting a few pages back...made no sense to me...
I am seriously bugged at the insinuation that my logic for enjoying these parties myself (in addition to the fact that they bring in a very decent fee) is somehow comparable to undercutting and undermining other teachers. To me, that is a pretty direct path to an accusation of "crummy ethics" - and I work very hard to maintain a high standard for those in my community. So, yeah, my skin bristled a bit at that.

Ditto. That comparison was flat out insulting. I'd add- she must have been doing things differently from most of us chiming in here in order to make that assumption.

All this talk about eliminating private bachelorette parties is conjuring up a hilarious mental image of a rowdy gang of giggly bachelorettes invading the OP's weekly belly dance class during the lecture on the mawal.

Again, be careful what you wish for...

I have read through about half of the posts, so if I repeat something - sorry.

I don't see the problem with these gigs, and I really don't see the comparison between us and clowns and magicians offering to teach their tricks. Here is the flaw:
Bellydancers teach class and women want to learn it.
Clowns and magicians do not teach classes for general public (except for clown - school or if you seriously want to become a magician), and the gp does not want to learn it. SO at a party no one cares to learn clown stuff or magic tricks, that's why they don't teach it.

Also, I'm sure most everyone else does it like this, but since I can't speak for others, I use myself for example:
It's not like I get hired for my usual 20-25 minutes performance with the appropriate rate and at the end I just throw in an hour / or 30 minute lesson for free.
When I do this parties it is planned / agreed upon based on asking questions, and discussions. I have done these instructions / performances in situations like this:
- baby shower. 7-8 month pregnant lady, 30 women in the house, catered party. I dance for 15 minutes, I do 15-20 minute instruction after for whoever wants to participate, focusing on the new mama. Of course charged more.
- just not too long ago, a Chaldean lady catered a party for about 10 American ladies, they were all sophisticated, slightly more mature. Quiet dinner, with Arabic food. The caterer called it Lebanese nights, she hired me, after discussing it we agreed that I dance 3 songs, then teach them / dance with them for 15 minutes or so.
- bridal showers, birthday parties.
- for a bachelorette party (small, about 7 ladies, in a Sunday afternoon) I was only hired to teach them, about 45 minutes. The focus was not on technique and becoming a belly dancer, but on having fun, learning some and it seemed that it meant so much for them that they had a belly dancer for the bachelorette party.
I have done this quite a few times, each time charged my party rate. It is less hassle, don't need that much makeup, costume, etc.

I have never left behind a hipscarf, but only because I didn't think they would use it, but would do it as a gift if it meant to so much.
I usually do the performance before, then quickly change and instruct, but only because it seems simpler for me. I can see why teaching first and dancing after would be just as good, or maybe better. Either way.

I don't see how I'm losing my integrity or anything else. I am charged for a service, and I provide it, and I don't undercut. I don't expect, and none of the attendees expect to become belly dancers that day. If anything they appreciate and learn really how hard it is. They rarely ever make it to my class though. I don't care, I am being paid the money I deserve, if they come to class it's even better. I don't do this for less hoping to get more students.

oh wow we were all typing at the same time

Originally Posted by Marianna

oh wow we were all typing at the same time

All typing, and all saying the same thing, at the same time! ..l;,

Originally Posted by Khalilah

Since I don't have time or a venue to have regular classes, these mini-lessons and workshops are my opportunity to teach. If participants are interested in further learning, I refer them out to reputable teachers in my area. So again, how exactly is this harming teachers' regular business? I am actually doing my part to ADD to their business...

Same here! I don't teach a weekly class, either. So I'm always referring business out to trusted friends! If anything, this perpetuates the market for good, ethical teachers.

about prices:
I charge more if
- I perform 10-15 minutes and then change and teach 15-20 minutes. While I change the guests mingle, etc. If I teach longer, I even charge more
- I perform and teach in costume (don't change) but it goes over 25 minutes, again it depends on the time, if it's longer I charge on top of the extra charge

I usually don't charge extra (but it depends on the situation) if
- I only teach, in this case I show up in dance-teaching attire, it looks nice and coordinated, all matching, and of course hair+make up is done to preserve the belly dance teacher mystery , hehe. About 30-45 minutes, I charge the same I would for a performance, if it's at an off time, like Sunday afternoon, weekday nights, etc. If it's a time I would be performing, I charge a lot more.
- if the total time is the same as my performance and I don't change. I'm in my costume, so instead of dancing 25 minutes, I dance and show them some moves for the second half. It's not like I'm giving away top secret or such valuable service that they can now go and make money off of. Instead of dancing I show them how to dance. In my opinion it's not any more effort.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Social dancing and being paid to teach dancing are two different ideas, as are social dancing and dancing as a student during a dance lesson. Unlike hula (which has been an interesting study in how to reclaim your respect from a misinformed public), salsa, and the other dances you mentioned upthread, we have baggage they don't. Nobody takes a single Latin dance lesson and thinks, "I should call up Tom Bergeron and let him know I'm ready to be paired with a celebrity on next season's 'Dancing with the Stars.'" People already understand the amount of training and talent required to be a professional ballroom dancer.

Sorry to threadjack, but that's not entirely true. I've seen plenty of people take my friend's salsation class and think they are at least semi-pros because they learned two kinds of basic and two kinds of turns. of course they won't call up the DwtS team, but they will offer workshops and stuff that our "one class wonders" do. even a belly dance one-class-wonder won't try to win a competition because that's just too big, performing locally doesn't seem as daunting if you try to look at it through their eyes. i had a personal experience with a "hula dancer" when i went to my very first gig. my "Act" was following hers and she was supposed to be a serious hula performer and was wearing shorts with a dollar store grass skirt and a bikini top. i asked her where she learned and she said her sister "visited Hawaii on an extended vacation and passed on hula knowledge to her"...and now she's performing and teaching. she didn't even know more than a kaholo, ka'o, and ami. i was horrified. at one of the ballrooms i worked at a lady came in asking for a job as an instructor and said she was already trained because she took zumba classes. so yes, it does happen in lots of other dances, not just belly dance. I have other stories, but i don't feel like continuing ..l;,

ok, sorry to take it off topic :)

Originally Posted by Marianna

about prices:
I charge more if
- I perform 10-15 minutes and then change and teach 15-20 minutes. While I change the guests mingle, etc. If I teach longer, I even charge more
- I perform and teach in costume (don't change) but it goes over 25 minutes, again it depends on the time, if it's longer I charge on top of the extra charge

I usually don't charge extra (but it depends on the situation) if
- I only teach, in this case I show up in dance-teaching attire, it looks nice and coordinated, all matching, and of course hair+make up is done to preserve the belly dance teacher mystery , hehe. About 30-45 minutes, I charge the same I would for a performance, if it's at an off time, like Sunday afternoon, weekday nights, etc. If it's a time I would be performing, I charge a lot more.
- if the total time is the same as my performance and I don't chage I'm in my costume, so instead of dancing 25 minutes, I dance and show them some moved for the second half. It's not like I'm giving away top secret or such valuable service that they can now go and make money off of. Instead of dancing I show them how to dance. In my opinion it's not any more effort.

I charge my party rate if I show up and teach for 45 minutes. I charge my party rate plus $100 if I also do a separate costumed performance.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I charge my party rate if I show up and teach for 45 minutes. I charge my party rate plus $100 if I also do a separate costumed performance.

Ditto!

Originally Posted by eden_eyes

ok, sorry to take it off topic :)

No apologies needed here.

Sometimes I swear I'm just going to scream if I hear one more person say "This only happens with Belly Dance! All other businesses/art forms are treated with the utmost respect!" There is rarely any complaint I read on Bhuz or hear about that I didn't run into when I was working in advertising and IT, or from friends who are in other artistic pursuits and/or businesses. People having misconceptions about what you do, undercutting, wanting everything under the sun but for cheap or free...it's all part of being in a business, particularly one that's creatively driven. I would be willing to bet you that every photographer, graphic artist, web designer, model, actress, caterer, etc. has many of the exact same conversations with their peers that we do. While I agree that there are of course certain differences from field to field, I don't think that we are nearly the special snowflakes that we make ourselves out to be at times (and I have been guilty of slipping into this mindset after some particularly crappy experiences).

Originally Posted by laura 2

No apologies needed here.

Sometimes I swear I'm just going to scream if I hear one more person say "This only happens with Belly Dance! All other businesses/art forms are treated with the utmost respect!" There is rarely any complaint I read on Bhuz or hear about that I didn't run into when I was working in advertising and IT, or from friends who are in other artistic pursuits and/or businesses. People having misconceptions about what you do, undercutting, wanting everything under the sun but for cheap or free...it's all part of being in a business, particularly one that's creatively driven. I would be willing to bet you that every photographer, graphic artist, web designer, model, actress, caterer, etc. has many of the exact same conversations with their peers that we do. While I agree that there are of course certain differences from field to field, I don't think that we are nearly the special snowflakes that we make ourselves out to be at times (and I have been guilty of slipping into this mindset after some particularly crappy experiences).

Freelance graphics: undercutters (everyone with a pirated copy of photoshop or *cringe* microsoft publisher thinks they're a graphic artist now), clients who think it should cost $20 instead of $200, people who don't understand how the work is done deciding it's all really easy... check.

Freelance writing: Amatuers offering to work for free, clients who don't understand or care about skill/training, general public who thinks getting paid for what you do is almost a crime.. check.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Freelance graphics: undercutters (everyone with a pirated copy of photoshop or *cringe* microsoft publisher thinks they're a graphic artist now), clients who think it should cost $20 instead of $200, people who don't understand how the work is done deciding it's all really easy... check.

Freelance writing: Amatuers offering to work for free, clients who don't understand or care about skill/training, general public who thinks getting paid for what you do is almost a crime.. check.

Yes, to augment:

Photographers: The "GWC" (guy with camera) who bought a Canon Rebel and is now shooting weddings for $75 a pop, with a full CD of 4,000 raw, un-edited images. Some people might also include a certain very well known belly dance photog in this category, though that's a separate discussion.

The Joys of Being Unemployed: There are lots of job seekers out there who will take any position for $5/hour and enter interviews with a "Pick me! Pick me!" attitude. You might be more qualified than they are, and you might have a better work ethic, too - but they've got that winning 'tude....and who can resist their unbridled enthusiasm for working for peanuts?

DJing: anyone who can make a playlist on iTunes or hook up an iPod. It doesn't even have to be a coherent playlist, just a list.

I've been acquainted with people who study writing and acting/stand up that do bizarre things and then blame the teacher/audience for not understanding their genius. Funny thing is, my friends and I didn't either.

And my boyfriend's brief parlay into web design for customers was disastrous. People were always try to take advantage of him, didn't pay him on time. One woman essentially expected him to be on call 24 hours and wanted to micromanage every aspect. When he finally quit, she threatened to sue him for some things that he made.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Other posters have defended their choice to do these gigs with very vague qualifiers, so I asked if anyone could address the issue with data.

From my reading of the thread nothing could be further from the truth. I, for one, am finding it rather frustrating that you haven't addressed the many reasoned replies to your arguments posted in the past few pages of the thread, instead dismissing them as "vague" and requesting information on business returns instead.

Many of us are advancing perfectly logical arguments on the principles of the matter, regardless of whether or not you opt to respond to them at this stage.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

It's pretty clear that this thread hit a nerve, but it's possible that there's a deeper reason for it than people finding my writing style abrasively pedantic.

It's also possible that there's no deeper reason. I'm not even gigging right now. The closest I have come to doing a mini-lesson gig of the type described is teaching a few educational workshops at schools, which you have already exempted from the category. I think, however, that your criticisms are ill-founded, and that's my only reason for posting on the subject.

Freelance graphics: undercutters (everyone with a pirated copy of photoshop or *cringe* microsoft publisher thinks they're a graphic artist now), clients who think it should cost $20 instead of $200, people who don't understand how the work is done deciding it's all really easy... check.

Freelance writing: Amatuers offering to work for free, clients who don't understand or care about skill/training, general public who thinks getting paid for what you do is almost a crime.. check.

People who think journalism is easy.

We, OTOH, are still in the intellectual hole of being thought of as pretty girls who wiggle around in those sexy outfits

I'm not a pretty girl and yet people seem to be quite happy with what I do as a BDer. How does that equate? Since I'm not pretty? I get the impression that they find me skilled and occasionally sexy.

Tourbeau what is this all ABOUT? Who shat on you? You've got it in for everybody.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I'm not a pretty girl and yet people seem to be quite happy with what I do as a BDer. How does that equate? Since I'm not pretty?

Who the hell said you aren't pretty, Zumarrad??? Give me names and addresses--I'm comin' down under to kick their butts!!! I think you're plenty pretty!

..g.:

That said, though, I do understand what you're trying to say ("pretty" as in, say, a more Hollywood-style definition....) Of course, I think it's also possible the intent of the snippet you're referencing *could* be more focused on a broader definition of pretty...or even more focused on the costumes. Honestly, sometimes people in the GP are cruel about looks, age, bodies...but sometimes they have the "Oooooooo preeeetttyyyy!!!" reaction more to the costumes, veils, sparkles and other trappings more than the dancer herself.

Yeah, what I mean is that I'm in my 46th year with short white hair and I'm not a conventional beauty. Despite this, people do seem to take me seriously as a dancer, including the GP. Go figure. Maybe some of them have brains!!!

Originally Posted by Ainsley

From my reading of the thread nothing could be further from the truth. I, for one, am finding it rather frustrating that you haven't addressed the many reasoned replies to your arguments posted in the past few pages of the thread, instead dismissing them as "vague" and requesting information on business returns instead.

Many of us are advancing perfectly logical arguments on the principles of the matter, regardless of whether or not you opt to respond to them at this stage.



It's also possible that there's no deeper reason. I'm not even gigging right now. The closest I have come to doing a mini-lesson gig of the type described is teaching a few educational workshops at schools, which you have already exempted from the category. I think, however, that your criticisms are ill-founded, and that's my only reason for posting on the subject.

Amen, Ainsley, on everything you've said in this thread!

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Maybe some of them have brains!!!

Never say!!!!!!

..l;,

Wow! This has been such an interesting thread. I'm with Satin; these responses make me want to go out there and market these types of parties myself.

You know what's funny, I actually asked for advice about what to do for a bachelorette party a couple of years ago here on Bhuz. I didn't get nearly as many responses. LOL!

Originally Posted by ejaghana

You know what's funny, I actually asked for advice about what to do for a bachelorette party a couple of years ago here on Bhuz. I didn't get nearly as many responses. LOL!

I think it's funny that this whole debacle was a spinoff of my asking what people like to wear to bachelorette parties. That's the fun part about Bhuz. You just never know what could be controversial! ..g.: