Thread: Mini lesson = mini integrity?

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I think it's funny that this whole debacle was a spinoff of my asking what people like to wear to bachelorette parties. That's the fun part about Bhuz. You just never know what could be controversial! ..g.:

I know! I'm glad you asked the question though. I've learned a whole lot and I'm really excited about doing something like this in the future. Inform people about the dance AND make some $$$? Sounds like a win-win to me!

I'm not going to link specific quotes, because this is too long already, but in a nutshell, my feeling is that parties are for performing and learning is for classrooms. I'm questioning the message that we're sending by mixing the two. Obviously a lot of people say that this provides great exposure to potential new students, but I'm still hoping someone can come forward with something beyond anecdotal evidence to break down how much these gigs actually create more interest ("I want to learn this" or "I'm going to hire a dancer at my next event"), mixed low interest/newfound respect ("I didn't realize it was so beautiful, artistic, and difficult...but I don't particularly want anything to do with it again."), negative interest ("I didn't like it. We should have hired the male stripper"), or if they're not making much of a dent in the public consciousness either way. That's why I asked for data. It's great to say, "I know this happens to me all the time," but that can be very deceptive. How something feels and how it actually is may not be the same thing. When you're running late, it feels like you're hitting every red light, but maybe that's because the green lights don't make you upset, so they don't register as much with you. What does "all the time" actually mean in this context? I'm not being defensive. I'm not denying anyone's perception or anecdotal evidence. I'm simply asking for a factual measure that isn't subject to personal recollection.

Fundamentally, I'm also asking why dancers who do these gigs prefer them to doing a non-mini-lesson performance in the same circumstances. There isn't any reason why you couldn't go in and do a moderate-length set and teach a relatively easy folk dance like a debke, or a set plus open dancing instead, so what is the advantage to mowing through the traditional course content in the abbreviated format? When I think back to my earliest classes, we spent a week on hip circles, a week on horizontal figure 8s, and two weeks on the basic shimmy. We didn't talk about layering hip circles with shimmies until much later. Naturally, when I hear someone list all these topics being taught to an audience of novices in a single session that's half the time of a regular class, I wonder what this instruction looks like. If you have a young audience, perhaps they can pick up material that quickly. Otherwise, where are the corners getting cut? Is it philosophically okay to skip whatever you'd be doing in the classroom that you're not doing at the party so that you can teach multiple hours of material in 25 minutes?

[Continued...]

As for why it may be undercutting, I see the mini lesson as presenting similar content at a price below what another dancer is asking instructor-level money to teach. For example, the going rate for a beginner's class in my area is $15 drop in. A half-hour belly gram would be about $150 (low end), the hen party, $250. Subtracting off the performance rate, the instructional part of the hen party works out to be $100. Per my beginner experience, the hip circle, figure 8, shimmy, and layered shimmy were introduced in four not-quite-sequential classes. Ten students at the party cost the event sponsor $100 to have those four moves presented to them. Ten students taking those four classes from a teacher brings in 10 students x $15 x 4 class hours = $600. Even if you say those four classes were half warm up/cool down, and they were really only two hours of information, it works out to 10 students x $15 x 2 class hours = $300, which is still more than $100. It doesn't make a difference if the students didn't have a full introduction to the material so they didn't quite learn the moves properly at the party. Being in a classroom with a teacher who takes the time to go around and individually correct students increases the odds but can't completely guarantee everyone will learn the moves properly there, either. Yes, not all ten people at the party will become students at your studio, so this is somewhat theoretical. OTOH, if you had done the straight performance, had a little free dance at the end, and handed out "25% off your first six weeks of class!" coupons, you would only need to recruit two students to exceed your gain from the mini-lesson party, and your likelihood of retaining those two new students would have deeper roots.

I know others don't think in these terms, but to me, this is the same idea as Betsy Beginner offering to dance for olives at the Falafel Hut. The Falafel Hut didn't have a dancer before, and they couldn't afford to pay one now, so Betsy didn't take a job away from anyone. She's not stopping Dancer X from taking a different job across town for a reasonable pro wage. Dancers who do mini lessons aren't stopping Teacher Z from charging a reasonable price to present introductory dance lessons in her studio. They're just teaching approximately the same information for considerably less money per head than Teacher Z thinks she should be entitled to make as a trained dance teacher. Maybe the students at the mini lesson have no intention of following up on dance classes. Then the teacher who gave the mini lesson didn't take any students away from Teacher Z, just like Betsy didn't deprive Dancer X of a job dancing at the Falafel Hut.

[Continued...]

The irony is that sometimes the dancer doing the mini lesson and Teacher Z are the same person. In that case, I say you're selling yourself short. Why not go into the gig with the confidence that you can inspire people to want to study with you outright, and steer them into your classes instead of settling for your own crumbs?

Now let me ask this question: What are you getting out of doing the mini-lesson gigs that you wouldn't or couldn't also be getting out of doing a straight performance gig with no add on for the same audience? Isn't that also fun? Won't you get a sense that they appreciate and enjoy your dancing that way, too? Don't you assume the audience is knowledgeable enough to know they probably can't now (and might never be able to) do some of what they're watching you do while dancing? If they came into the party with an unenlightened attitude regarding the dance, wouldn't you also be able to change that misconception by simply performing for them?

Somebody mentioned being insulted about the implication that money was an underlying issue, but maybe the fact that the discussion is still roiling on at such a fevered pitch means we need to go back and address that head on. Is that it? Is the real reason dancers have such deep, defensive fondness for these gigs because they can charge for an hour performance instead of twenty minutes? I don't care one way or the other, but if the truth is a few of the people here are thinking that these gigs are great because they can pad up their same bellygram into twice the payday for almost no additional work, then own it and be honest about it. Don't pretend it's only about raising your local profile, sharing your talents with the community, etc., for the sake of argument. I'm not saying those other aspects can't be a part of your motivation--they should be, but if the warm fuzzies you get from doing these gigs are secretly green at the core, then at least admit it to yourself, if you don't want to do so publicly.

I don't know what everybody thinks I mean when I say "art," but it's not the same highfalutin, self-indulgent abstract concept that I myself ridiculed up in the early "arty vs. party" section of the thread. I would just like to see the dance get more respect. I'd like it to reach a level where you didn't have to worry a woman's eyes were going to widen in shock if you said you did it, and you wouldn't have to worry that her husband was going to give you a stupid, leering grin for the rest of the evening. I'd like to see a dancer on TV who isn't decapitated by the camera the whole time she's dancing. I'd even like to see a dancer get invited on a talk show like a legitimate performer--where you get to sit in the guest chair and talk about your career with the interviewer--not the puff piece at the end. And I'd like to never see another "belly dancer" on TV who was just an actress in a costume instead of a dancer with legitimate training.

[Continued...]

It would be great if we could apply for the same fine-arts and cultural funding as other groups and get those grants more often, and even better if university dance departments treated us as something more than the latest rec-ed fitness trend. It would be nice if gyms realized this dance has substantive, artistic potential, and it requires more than an aerobics instructor to teach it. Unfortunately, I sincerely question if we're undermining all our talk about this being a "real" dance that requires years of serious training by turning around and offering crash courses in it between the opening of the presents and the arrival of the pizza.

Here's an idea that I don't think has been put forth in this discussion yet: The dancers who are the biggest offenders of the bad gigs are the least likely to be participating in a forum like this. If you're looking around and thinking, "Everybody here has excellent ethics, and would never do what she's complaining about," you might be right, but not necessarily because I'm wrong. It might be because Suzy Nippletassels and her buddies aren't here to share their strategies for spreading a hot-messitude of unprofessional behavior around town.

Finally, I can't imagine anyone is as frustrated by this thread as I am. I have tried very hard to express my opinions clearly and calmly, and when I've responded to criticisms coming from all sorts of different directions, I was accused of being a moving target with no organized concept of what I'm advocating. I put out a call for data to clarify what others were writing, and with the exception of Artemisia, no one had actual numbers to post. Since by her own admission, she didn't keep records in that detail, there wasn't much else to say there. Ainsley, I don't know why no one else wanted to discuss what you posted, but I didn't really feel I had anything to add beyond what I'd already specifically written regarding #1, and implied about #2. I don't think these parties see a lot of #3 just because of the nature of them, but maybe in some areas, they do.

You know, I could see people being hysterical about what I was writing if I was picking at every single line of text or knee-jerking after every new post. Actually, I haven't responded to most of what's written here, not even the snide remarks directed at me personally. This has just been one of those conversations that would have gone entirely different in person than it went online. I'm well aware that my thoughts don't represent the mainstream feeling about these gigs, and I'm willing to agree to disagree. The only reason I'm still posting in this thread is to clarify what people keep misinterpreting about my position and to address a few specific questions. What difference does it make to anyone here if I don't see things the same way they do anyway? My decision not to do these gigs surely doesn't interfere with anyone else doing them.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

As for why it may be undercutting, I see the mini lesson as presenting similar content at a price below what another dancer is asking instructor-level money to teach. For example, the going rate for a beginner's class in my area is $15 drop in. A half-hour belly gram would be about $150 (low end), the hen party, $250. Subtracting off the performance rate, the instructional part of the hen party works out to be $100. Per my beginner experience, the hip circle, figure 8, shimmy, and layered shimmy were introduced in four not-quite-sequential classes. Ten students at the party cost the event sponsor $100 to have those four moves presented to them. Ten students taking those four classes from a teacher brings in 10 students x $15 x 4 class hours = $600. Even if you say those four classes were half warm up/cool down, and they were really only two hours of information, it works out to 10 students x $15 x 2 class hours = $300, which is still more than $100. It doesn't make a difference if the students didn't have a full introduction to the material so they didn't quite learn the moves properly at the party. Being in a classroom with a teacher who takes the time to go around and individually correct students increases the odds but can't completely guarantee everyone will learn the moves properly there, either. Yes, not all ten people at the party will become students at your studio, so this is somewhat theoretical. OTOH, if you had done the straight performance, had a little free dance at the end, and handed out "25% off your first six weeks of class!" coupons, you would only need to recruit two students to exceed your gain from the mini-lesson party, and your likelihood of retaining those two new students would have deeper roots.


[Continued...]

I quoted this piece because it has the bit I want to respond to, though as usual my reply may jump around a bit and hit upon several of your points.

You are confusing a mini-class, a "demo" class, really, with an actual, let's-get-serious-about-learning-to-dance class.

My attitude about these parties is that the attendees are there to have fun first and to learn second. I teach only the most basic moves, and I make it clear that there's no way the party-goers can expect to master them in a few minutes. BUT, they can learn the basic egyptian, a hip drop, and yes, shake their shoulders and rear ends around in a "shimmy" all the while laughing at themselves and each other. (cont...)

The functon of these parties, believe it or not, is for the party goers to have fun, not for me to take on the serious job of Teaching People to Dance. The reason why I do them as well as traditional parties is because they are opportunities for me to make money, and as I enjoy having a roof over my head in the winter, I find it to be a wise choice to take the gigs that come along (within reason, let's not get into a what-if argument on what kinds of gigs I'll take for the money).

If I get more students out of them that's a bonus, honestly. They may or may not have decided to take lessons if I had only danced and not taught, but I guarantee that half hour we spend laughing together as they try to learn even the most basic moves will help me to stand out as THE person they want to learn from, should they decide to take that step. With only a performance as the impression I leave with them, they may have a deep appreciation for the dance, but still not think to try to learn it themselves.

What you're not taking into consideration is that the performance/lesson party is one of the most expensive options I offer - right up there with what I charge for weddings. And even the option without the performance is equivalent pay for me to teaching good sized class of students at $15 a head. I try not to undercut myself, honestly. So for the hostess who's paying my fee, it's most certainly not the cheapest option, and the guests are treated to an experience they may not have had otherwise.

I still don't understand why you think these things are so detrimental, or why you speak of these lesson parties, and the general disrespect that belly dance gets in the same breath.

As to one of the other points you made regarding belly dancers being puff pieces on talk shows, when was the last time any ballerina was featured on talk show in a serious in-depth interview about her profession? Or even as a puff piece at the end?

I Do mini lessons!
I give a hip scarf!
I do MAKE $ (MORE in fact than my reg. class fee!)
I DO them because the client WANTS THAT and NOT a performance!
I LIKE them!
I don't have to keep data, my children are fed because of the upscale, classy belly dance busines I run, AND demos are part of that!
I will do them here, I will do them there, I will do them anywhere! I will do them in a box I will do them with a fox..... Sorry my other job, preschool!,r:;
I LIKE what I do. People have choices as to waht they do. I completely respect dancers/teachers who turn them down for whatever reason, same with bellygrams. But I have INTEGRITY in this business and I DO demo classes!
Do what you do, I do what I do and leave well enough alone, seems right to me....
If people are left wondering how others have gotten upset, not me I don't really go on the judgements of others, it may be because the word "integrity" was used in the first place. As if we who do these are somehow do something that is not based on "integrity"? Well live and let live as long as there is no undercutting, smutty dancing, etc involved

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I would just like to see the dance get more respect. I'd like it to reach a level where you didn't have to worry a woman's eyes were going to widen in shock if you said you did it, and you wouldn't have to worry that her husband was going to give you a stupid, leering grin for the rest of the evening.

Which is why the idea of educating people through the 'mini-lesson' seems like a good place to start.

Our local African dance group dances at local festivals and they always have an audience participation part. They've had a different lesson every time I have seen them. Same goes for our local Native American festival. I've even seen a classroom of college students shuffling around doing a Gullah slave dance.

These groups have many things in common. First of all, they don't just get out there and dance without some explanation of the history of their dance. Secondly, the audience actively participates which helps retain any lesson learned. Lastly, these are all examples of social dances.

We all know that bellydancing didn't originate in a dance studio or on the stage. So, why deny the social aspects of the dance by cordoning it off to the realm of 'art' like ballet?

If you want to bring bellydancing to the 'height' of ballet, you can tell all of us fat chicks we can't dance. Then you can handpick only lithe, skinny chicks who have had no less than fifteen years of dance, toss them on stage, and have them perform in front of an audience who just has to sit down and STFU.

That pretentious, perfectionist bull**** ain't why I signed up for bellydance. I'm here to dance and, damn it, I want everyone to come out and dance with me.

Watching other people dance isn't as much fun as getting up and dancing with them. You can either have a passive audience who may or may not learn a lesson or you can teach them to shimmy without throwing their backs out and give them an experience that they will never forget.

Originally Posted by roguepen

Which is why the idea of educating people through the 'mini-lesson' seems like a good place to start.

Our local African dance group dances at local festivals and they always have an audience participation part. They've had a different lesson every time I have seen them. Same goes for our local Native American festival. I've even seen a classroom of college students shuffling around doing a Gullah slave dance.

These groups have many things in common. First of all, they don't just get out there and dance without some explanation of the history of their dance. Secondly, the audience actively participates which helps retain any lesson learned. Lastly, these are all examples of social dances.

We all know that bellydancing didn't originate in a dance studio or on the stage. So, why deny the social aspects of the dance by cordoning it off to the realm of 'art' like ballet?

If you want to bring bellydancing to the 'height' of ballet, you can tell all of us fat chicks we can't dance. Then you can handpick only lithe, skinny chicks who have had no less than fifteen years of dance, toss them on stage, and have them perform in front of an audience who just has to sit down and STFU.

That pretentious, perfectionist bull**** ain't why I signed up for bellydance. I'm here to dance and, damn it, I want everyone to come out and dance with me.

Watching other people dance isn't as much fun as getting up and dancing with them. You can either have a passive audience who may or may not learn a lesson or you can teach them to shimmy without throwing their backs out and give them an experience that they will never forget.

You know that part in the John Hughes movies, where a single person stands up and starts to clap, which in turn gets everyone else applauding? I'm doing that right now after reading your post. Thank you for putting into words what I have been unable to do for the past hour or so.

Of course, my cat is looking at me really strangely, but what does she know?

wait a minute. Who said we are teaching 8 weeks equivalent in a 15-30 minute "mini lesson"?? Tourbeau you implied that we do that.

Oh no. I teach them something easy and some things that are a bit challenging, so they can't say it's easy :)) and some typical stuff a belly dancer should do (shimmy, etc).
Normally I teach them some arm movements, maybe 2-3 hip movements, like shimmy, hip lift, figure eight, and maybe 1 upper body like shoulder shimmy. It really depends on them.
And we're not going for perfect technique here. I just show them how to do it, so they have some idea, and then at the end we put it together for 1 song (impro, I never do choreography).
The whole point for the guests to have fun. If they forget it the next day, so what? None of them expected to become a belly dancer, it was for fun and entertainment, and to do something different.

I do these because the client wants it, or i suggest it because I think it would go well and they would like it. I make my money and I don't have to justify anything, because I'm not doing anything wrong.

I can't comment to the other stuff you wrote, it's just too much.
But honestly, you are overthinking this, wayyyy too much.

And I'd like to never see another "belly dancer" on TV who was just an actress in a costume instead of a dancer with legitimate training

Because you never see an actress pretending to be a ballerina, or an actress "dancing" in a style she learned in two weeks, in any movie or TV programme, right? Oh, except for how you do *all the time*. Especially with ballet. Sometimes the actress has done ballet study but they are never ever of anything like ballerina standard.

There is plenty of bad dance out there being presented as Oh So Great in the context of the film or play, but that sucks.

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Torbeau, I enjoy your writing style but I don't envy your cynical outlook on the human condition. It must be depressing to know how dumb the general public *really* are.

I wonder how the audience would feel if they knew how ignorant they are perceived to be, Torbeau -- and I'm dragging a couple of posts here from another thread because they were not addressed and I feel are related to some of your comments here.

This was from one of your posts:

[quote=Tourbeau;594268]You're not being a hypocrite. You're being honest. Let's talk about performing for other dancers for a second and set the GP aside, because when it comes to the dance, most of the public couldn't find their rear ends with two hands and a map.
QUOTE]

And my comment was:

I sure hope the audience isn't aware of this attitude! While a great percentage of the GP is ignorant or mis-informed about much of our dance, many appreciate being educated, and I doubt if they knew a performer felt this way about them that they would be very receptive to learning.

I think your perception of the public "not being able to find their rear ends with two hands and a map" reflects a great disrespect for those who apparently are paying a high fee to see you perform and/or learn from your teaching. I find it interesting that someone who demands such a high level of respect for her art would not want to avail themselves of any opportunity to gain that respect -- the venue you so find so objectionable seems IMHO to be one such opportunity to educate the "ignorant masses".

And this: (Sorry, the costume part is off topic--I'm just inserting here so it's not out of context)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourbeau

If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, even if it's wearing an Abla, it's still a duck. It's doesn't matter if the duck can afford nice things, enjoys owning them, and feels like a beautiful, belly dancing princess when it wears them. I'm happy for you, Quackie, but you're still a duck.

And my post was:
Wow ..... just .... wow. I agree that just because you buy and perform in -- let's say, a Sahar -- that doesn't make you a better dancer than someone who has a less epensive or self-made wardrobe. And, of course, a high-end costume will never cover up a lack of skill. That goes without saying. But I find this comment unbelievably harsh and sarcastic .... "I'm happy for you, Quackie, but you're still a duck"??? I would hope that an observation this harsh would at least come from many, many years of experience and a whole book of credentials to back it up.

I truly am not asking this to be confrontational, Tourbeau, I am sincere in my curiosity as to the credentials and/or years of performing/teaching experience possessed by one who holds others to such high standards. May I ask how many years you have been involved in this art form--learning, performing, teaching? Asking politely, please don't read anything into this other than sincere curiosity after reading through all six pages of this thread and pondering related issues brought up in the other one.

OK, I''ll try one more time since the answer to this question seem to be quite elusive. If you don't feel like responding or don't wish to spend the time, I wouldn't mind visiting your web site, if you have one. Since other dancers' skills via video clips and such have apparently been checked up on to see if they matched up with the level of their wardrobe, I feel it's a fair exploration ..... ..l;,

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

OK. Now I'm about to make the confession to end all confessions.

But I began my lifelong love of belly dance after.....drumroll.....seeing a Shakira music video.....and.....wait for it....attending a "let's learn how to shimmy!" party that was offered at my college by a local instructor.

These silly little things can produce positive outcomes. Would mainstream society appreciate belly dance more if we didn't expose them to it?

I started belly dancing as well after seeing Shakira's 'wherever whenever' video, followed by a local TV commercial the next week stating 'anybody can learn how to belly dance! come and shake it like Shakira' Maybe silly, but it worked ;)

I for one am still very grateful for any positive mainstream attention bd gets. You never know where it might end!

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I don't know. Some people sneer at those of us who perform on the bellygram and private event circuit, and that's entirely their prerogative. IMNSHO, there IS something noble, powerful and touching about the fact that we bring happiness to other people, and usually on very special days of their lives. When I'm ready to retire from belly dance, I'll look back fondly upon all the times I brought friends and family together. I'm just not gonna sit there and hate myself because I never got to put on a non-sparkly costume and emote to Oum K for 3 hours in Carnegie Hall for a bunch of ahhhhhrt connoisseurs. (But if somebody else wants to achieve that in their dance lifetime, then by all means, giddy up).

It seems to be an increasingly recurring judgemental feel within this dance now that is putting people in a place of feeling controlled or demeaned. There is a thread on OD that touches on whether a dancer should be at a certain 'level' before she can wear a high end costume. I found this really sad and hearing people say they did not feel worthy or experienced enough to put on an expensive or professional costume for fear of what others may say or think, kind of kills all the joy that we associate with this dance.

What we seem to be losing sight of, in the melee to be the best and most 'authentic', is that a lot of people go to class for fun and as a means of expressing their own personal creativity, not to be a 'serious' or professional dancer. There is nothing wrong with that, and I don't feel any of us has the right to make someone feel bad if they just want to dance for the joy of it....be it in an expensive Eman or a homemade bra.

Same with taster sessions or mini lessons. Why has it all got to be so serious?

Japan doesn't have the performance-and-minilesson structure here (nor does it have hen parties) although I've seen it done an an event or two here between or after performances while there is music playing and a chance for everyone to dance socially.

The reason I am ok with the idea of a performance and mini-lesson structure is...it is a dance with social dance roots. The mini-lesson is so those participants, who have enough interest in the dance that they hire someone and watch them dance, can enjoy learning a few simple steps in a social environment and dancing with each other in that environment...and, sure, maybe bust-out whatever they retain in other social places like dance clubs and parties. This doesn't seem totally out of step with the dance.

Our dance roots are prolitarian!

I've seen salsa clubs and swing parties with all levels of dancers have very basic intro-lessons early in the evening so that new people can enjoy themselves and feel like they have some understanding of the dance that goes with the music they are enjoying, so BD isn't the only dance where such a mini-lesson goes with a social gathering or event.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

but I'm still hoping someone can come forward with something beyond anecdotal evidence to break down how much these gigs actually create more interest ("I want to learn this" or "I'm going to hire a dancer at my next event"), mixed low interest/newfound respect ("I didn't realize it was so beautiful, artistic, and difficult...but I don't particularly want anything to do with it again."), negative interest ("I didn't like it. We should have hired the male stripper"), or if they're not making much of a dent in the public consciousness either way. That's why I asked for data...]

I would say a fair amount of my students over the years came via taster sessions. And judging from the replies on here, what other evidence could you possibly need...hard figures? A break down of percentages? Talk about over-egging the pudding!

I've already mentioned that it created interest, and made those taking part realise just how hard it is, how good it made them feel, and how eager they were to take part in regular classes. It gave them a new found respect for a dance that appears to be easy, when performed by an accomplished dancer and that by being give a taster, they realised it was within their capacity to learn more. Everybody else has said the same on this thread. How much more of an affirmation to the positive is there to give?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

The irony is that sometimes the dancer doing the mini lesson and Teacher Z are the same person. In that case, I say you're selling yourself short. Why not go into the gig with the confidence that you can inspire people to want to study with you outright, and steer them into your classes instead of settling for your own crumbs?...]

From a business point of view, charging £10 per head for an hour session of 25 people is not to sniffed at. There are some of us on here who actually dance for a living and not just as a hobby. Its on top of a regular class for most of us, and has the added bonus of possible new students at the most and a renewed respect for the dance at the least. What's with the crumbs?

And as for being an inspiration... I've never had a problem with that where ever I've danced... be it class, restaurant, corporate gig or mini lesson. And I'm sure the others on here would agree. We have plenty of confidence in our skills and ability to inspire, thanks very much. Am I getting the whiff of sour grapes here?

Originally Posted by eden_eyes

so yes, it does happen in lots of other dances, not just belly dance. I have other stories, but i don't feel like continuing

Yep. Just watch the auditions on So You Think You Can Dance and you'll see them come out of the woodwork.

Originally Posted by roguepen

We all know that bellydancing didn't originate in a dance studio or on the stage. So, why deny the social aspects of the dance by cordoning it off to the realm of 'art' like ballet?

If you want to bring bellydancing to the 'height' of ballet, you can tell all of us fat chicks we can't dance. Then you can handpick only lithe, skinny chicks who have had no less than fifteen years of dance, toss them on stage, and have them perform in front of an audience who just has to sit down and STFU.

That pretentious, perfectionist bull**** ain't why I signed up for bellydance. I'm here to dance and, damn it, I want everyone to come out and dance with me.

Watching other people dance isn't as much fun as getting up and dancing with them. You can either have a passive audience who may or may not learn a lesson or you can teach them to shimmy without throwing their backs out and give them an experience that they will never forget.

Says it all. You can't have your cake an eat it with respect to this dance. The whole attraction of this dance is that is accessible in a way no other dance is. You don't see very many dancers still performing professionally and successfully in their fatter, more mature years in any other dance form.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I don't care one way or the other, but if the truth is a few of the people here are thinking that these gigs are great because they can pad up their same bellygram into twice the payday for almost no additional work, then own it and be honest about it. Don't pretend it's only about raising your local profile, sharing your talents with the community, etc., for the sake of argument. I'm not saying those other aspects can't be a part of your motivation--they should be, but if the warm fuzzies you get from doing these gigs are secretly green at the core, then at least admit it to yourself, if you don't want to do so publicly.

..

Now you do sound like you've got a dose of the sour grapes......l;,

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

a few of the people here are thinking that these gigs are great because they can pad up their same bellygram into twice the payday for almost no additional work, then own it and be honest about it.

Doing a full out 10 minute performance, then running to the bathroom to change very quickly, coming back and teaching for 30 - 40 minutes in an engaging and high energy manner, then putting on a song and leading the guests in an improv for *another* 5 minutes is "almost no additional work?" ..c:: On what planet? I charge over twice as much for the performance/mini-lesson package as I do BellyGram precisely because it's a LOT more work and takes a LOT more of my time.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

a relatively easy folk dance like a debke

Huh??!! Maybe its just me, but I don't think there is anything all that easy about learning debke -- that is, if you are going to take it seriously and learn it for real. The people I know who have put together entire short courses and day-long or more workshops on the topic would probably take issue that you can really "bulldoze" through all the necessary material in 20 minutes.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

You are confusing a mini-class, a "demo" class, really, with an actual, let's-get-serious-about-learning-to-dance class.

Word, TH. Comparing the mini-class to 4 weeks of real, hour-long classes in a studio and then concluding that the former undercuts the latter just doesn't wash for me.

Tourbeau, why have you put all the burden of proof on those giving the mini-lessons? Where is your evidence that a party-goer leaves the mini-lesson thinking they've had serious dance lessons, or thinking they are now a belly dancer, or signing up for classes but expecting to be placed higher than absolute beginner because they've already learned 6 moves in a party-environment mini-lesson?

Originally Posted by ozma

I've seen salsa clubs and swing parties with all levels of dancers have very basic intro-lessons early in the evening so that new people can enjoy themselves and feel like they have some understanding of the dance that goes with the music they are enjoying, so BD isn't the only dance where such a mini-lesson goes with a social gathering or event.

Exactly. we have a ballroom here that does this. And if anyone walks away from their 30 minute mini-lesson thinking they're ready to enter a competition or get on Dancing with the Stars, then I'd say there's something wrong with them, not the concept of the quick lesson.

The ski resort near me does a 30-minute lesson as well. Should they stop doing that because people will try to hang out their shingle as teachers or enter the Olympics? After all, someone could get hurt....

I believe we can safely trust the GP -- with the exception of the mentally ill -- to know the difference between 'I had a little lesson in that once, it was fun' and 'I'm a pro now.'

Originally Posted by ssipes

signing up for classes but expecting to be placed higher than absolute beginner because they've already learned 6 moves in a party-environment mini-lesson?

This is completely anecdotal, but in over 4 years of teaching and having had over 400 individual students in my classes (which I know because I keep very detailed records on that information), I have never once had this happen. Ever. In fact, I can count on one hand how many students have asked for ANY reason to be skipped into my Level 2 class, and when they have it's been because they've taken a year or more of lessons with another instructor.

I'm not exactly Miss Optimistic Sunshine, but my own personal experiences with performing and teaching the GP has not led me to always expect the worst from them - or from other dancers, for that matter. For whatever reasons, Tourbeau, this does not seem to be the case with you. Whether you intend it or not, your disdain for what appears to be 99% of the population is coming through loud and clear in your posts. I'm sorry if you've felt personally attacked in this thread, but it's really hard not to get personal with someone who's accusing several very successful and ethical dancers of being money-grubbing and delusional, and anyone without extensive exposure to ME dance and culture as clueless sheep.

It would be great if we could apply for the same fine-arts and cultural funding as other groups and get those grants more often, and even better if university dance departments treated us as something more than the latest rec-ed fitness trend. It would be nice if gyms realized this dance has substantive, artistic potential, and it requires more than an aerobics instructor to teach it. Unfortunately, I sincerely question if we're undermining all our talk about this being a "real" dance that requires years of serious training by turning around and offering crash courses in it between the opening of the presents and the arrival of the pizza.

I've known great teachers who taught at a gym or a YWCA. Also, universities aren't turning their noses up at belly dancing. I was allowed to do a year-long special studies in belly dancing. My school hired Donna Mejia as an adjunct; I think she still teaches there, both technique and cultural issues. Doesn't Shoshanna teach at a university? A woman recently posted that her daughter's audition was well-received. Perhaps we're shortchanging ourselves by assuming the dance departments at universities aren't interested in what we're selling. I'm not saying that everyone will receive belly dancing with open arms, but I'm guessing that more than 3 schools in the US are at least willing to give belly dancing a shot.

Here's an idea that I don't think has been put forth in this discussion yet: The dancers who are the biggest offenders of the bad gigs are the least likely to be participating in a forum like this. If you're looking around and thinking, "Everybody here has excellent ethics, and would never do what she's complaining about," you might be right, but not necessarily because I'm wrong. It might be because Suzy Nippletassels and her buddies aren't here to share their strategies for spreading a hot-messitude of unprofessional behavior around town.

Doesn't that really apply to anything? Teaching weekly classes, restaurant gigs, etc. For all I know, the proverbial Suzy rents out a gorgeous auditorium and puts on staged shows.

Honestly, I think the worst culprit for low quality dancers are teachers who put their students out in the public eye way too early (not recital, gigs), don't give any useful feedback so students think they're perfect, don't discuss the "big picture" (you're never really done learning), and emphasize the whole "going pro" thing.

What better way to dispel the "all I do is put on a pretty costume and wiggle my a#$" myth than spending an hour with a group of women?

Not only might you educate them a bit on the music and culture, you educate them on how non-overtly sexual the dance is, AND you can help instill some self-confidence and positive body image!

It's not about giving the audience a full discourse on ME history, language, or proving to anyone that you are the best (or most pretentious) dancer on the planet. For me, it's about planting positive seeds. I have been really pleased with the number of ladies who want to follow up with classes. Often, for the first time in their lives, they realize that their bodies are ok and that they can dance no matter their age or shape.

Originally Posted by indigostars

I've known great teachers who taught at a gym or a YWCA. Also, universities aren't turning their noses up at belly dancing. I was allowed to do a year-long special studies in belly dancing. My school hired Donna Mejia as an adjunct; I think she still teaches there, both technique and cultural issues. Doesn't Shoshanna teach at a university? A woman recently posted that her daughter's audition was well-received. Perhaps we're shortchanging ourselves by assuming the dance departments at universities aren't interested in what we're selling. I'm not saying that everyone will receive belly dancing with open arms, but I'm guessing that more than 3 schools in the US are at least willing to give belly dancing a shot.

Elmhurst College in Illinois has a full credit Middle Eastern Dance and Culture class, taught by the amazing and very well-respected Jawhara.

I can’t imagine how teaching what amounts to ½ of a regular class warm up of isolations and drills while discussing history is undercutting my regular classes where I teach 1.5 hours of material in each class. If you are looking at it as money paid aspect (as you mention above), then the mini-lesson is paying more per person per unit of time than my regular classes – hardly undercutting.
I work as a researcher and statistician, so I *do* keep very detailed records of my classes and gigs, but even I don’t have a survey of every single person who has ever attended a class, performance, or mini-lesson. The value vs. time spent isn’t worth that amount of detailed analysis for me because I can already see that the mini-lessons do bring me new students, the attendees do learn some history and come away with a better understanding of our dance form, and the cost is equivalent enough that I am not undercutting myself or others. In fact, my price for this is higher than my standard price for a private or small group lesson per hour.
A mini-lesson isn’t a full dance class and it isn’t meant to be. As I explain to my regular and mini-lesson students, it can take years to perfect some of the deceptively simple moves, so we spend time on all of the basic isolations every single week in class in addition to whatever our focus move or topic is for that week. A mini-lesson gives a taste of it and I have never had anyone in an introductory class leave thinking it was easy or that they were now belly dancers.
This is from my earlier post – moving it here because I think it may have gotten lost in the shuffle:

Originally Posted by mahsati

I can't speak for anyone else, but, for myself, I am still confused as to what you see as ethically wrong about an introductory class session and performance in a special occasion setting. I don't intend to be obtuse on the subject - it just isn't clear to me what the specific issues are that you see as ethically questionable in this case.

If the issue is bad teaching, then that is an issue of teaching rather than venue/gig. If the issue is teaching in a private class setting, I am not sure how that is different from any beginner level introductory class. Is it the type of gig itself or the way that poor teachers may approach it?

If you have time, could you clarify which parts of this you see as ethically problematic? Thanks for your patience.

I think it might help me understand if you put it in specific terms. For example, in your own teaching/performing or with other teachers/performers you know how are mini-lessons structured and priced? It really sounds like your definition is pretty far removed from the definition I use which is hindering my understanding of your points.