Thread: Mini lesson = mini integrity?

That cat is so fat..it has a shiny spot on its ass. But I do notice the cocked right ear...so all is not - ignored.

I haven't left the thread, I'm just tired of explaining myself over and over to people who insist on twisting my words.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

"Does teaching taster lessons diminish the artistic value of the dance as a serious discipline because it presents a distorted view of what learning it entails to an inexperienced student body?"

Where in that question does it insult anyone's personal ethics?

Originally Posted by anala

That cat is so fat..it has a shiny spot on its ass. But I do notice the cocked right ear...so all is not - ignored.

That's the flash .... oh, no, wait ..... it's a reminder that "A kick in the ass is a step forward ....."

Originally Posted by anala

That cat is so fat..it has a shiny spot on its ass. But I do notice the cocked right ear...so all is not - ignored.

Yes, you are quite right ..... the cocked right ear ..... cats hear EVERYTHING, but seldom respond ......

If it were REALLY an "ignore" cat, it would be drunk, debaucherous and harrassing a male kitteh stripper.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

"Does teaching taster lessons diminish the artistic value of the dance as a serious discipline because it presents a distorted view of what learning it entails to an inexperienced student body?"
Where in that question does it insult anyone's personal ethics?

You didn’t start with that question...you started with a harangue including many little gems like:

“I won't do them on principal”.
If this is all just a lot of silly, sexy, hen-party jokey time, why not teach them to say "Harder! Harder! Don't Stop!" in Arabic, or maybe "My last boyfriend was bigger!" in Turkish? What a hoot that would be, eh?!"
“Other pros have the discipline and self respect to make their audiences understand that they've trained for years to be good, and if you want the trade secrets and the props, you earn them the hard way or buy them online yourself at your own risk.”
“Arguing that these party gigs are essential to our success is like saying that African-American performers needed stage time in front of white audiences enough that it justified wearing blackface.”

Don't play the innocent, it's unbecoming on a woman as articulate as you.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

If it were REALLY an "ignore" cat, it would be drunk, debaucherous and harrassing a male kitteh stripper.

She was, lol .... about an hour ago. She just cleaned up for this thread .... now she's going back to the partay .....

Anala -- you have pictures of EVERYTHING in the world. Got any of a "male kitteh stripper"?

Sorry, back to topic ..... it was just getting sooooo dark and heavy in here, I thought a chuckle might help a bit.....

Originally Posted by ozma

You didn’t start with that question...you started with a harangue including many little gems like:


“Other pros have the discipline and self respect to make their audiences understand that they've trained for years to be good, and if you want the trade secrets and the props, you earn them the hard way or buy them online yourself at your own risk.”


This was what piqued my curiosity and second attempt to determine if the OP herself had, indeed, "trained for years to be good" and "earned the trade secrets" the "hard way". I am humbled by the credentials of so many of those who posted here -- and who did so in a polite, unprovocative, patient and articulate manner. I am surprised at how restrained they were, considering their vast knowledge, training and experience. Although I began more years ago than I care to count, I am nowhere close to where they are in terms of what they bring to this dance form, and I listen and learn from what they post on Bhuz. In many areas, I have learned more from these wonderful performers and teachers who are Bhuzzers, than I have from many workshops and other teachers. I was simply inquiring whether such a judgmental and cynical attitude arose from expertise equal to or perhaps greater than those of whom so much was required, or was simply an attempt to be provocative and kick up a bit of dust.....


Don't play the innocent, it's unbecoming on a woman as articulate as you.

There is a difference between being articulate and enjoying the sound of one's voice ..... (mostly poking fun at myself here, when I think I'm being articulate and have simply taken myself or the subject at hand way too seriously--..l;,.w.:)

"Why has it all got to be so serious?"


Thank you!..g.:

Originally Posted by naiyahayal

There is a difference between being articulate and enjoying the sound of one's voice ..... (mostly poking fun at myself here, when I think I'm being articulate and have simply taken myself or the subject at hand way too seriously--..l;,.w.:)

True. I am also speaking as someone who has bullied with words and pulled the "you've misunderstood" me ploy and re-crafted what I'd said in a light more flattering to myself......although the few times I did it on Bhuz I had the integrity to feel bad and admit, soon after, that they were right... I'd been nasty. In admitting where I'd been out of line I often and where people had had good arguements... I found others more receptive to the valid points I had.

But, I'm speaking only for myself...I should lighten up. Tourbeau may honestly be surprised by the response she's received. I may be out
of line here.

delete

Originally Posted by ozma

Tourbeau may honestly be surprised by the response she's received.

I would say I was surprised by part of the response. I knew people would be very opinionated in their defense of their positions--they always are. I anticipated that many dancers did not keep business records in the detail that would put them in a position to discuss the matter with hard numbers. What I found surprising was the viciousness that this thread provoked. I was very up front. I called this a rant in my first post, which indicates I was aware that it was a controversial position, and yet, out of all the text I wrote over the course of the thread, I'm not sure a single person found as much as a few words they could agree with. Only a tiny subset of people could even muster the decency to acknowledge that I had a right to a different opinion than they held. Despite numerous attempts to set the record straight, the tenacity with which people clung to the idea that what I wrote was what they wanted it to mean and not what I actually meant was horrifyingly disappointing--almost as disappointing as the number of people who used this as an opportunity to launch personal attacks at me.

Probably the most surprising thing was the collective failure of others to see the irony of the situation. People who wrote that they were justified in refusing to indulge in the possibility of seeing my side of things because I was arrogant, did so while raving arrogantly about how right they were and how wrong I was. Posters complaining about how offended they were that I had insulted their ethics mocked and insulted my ethics as they did it. Worst of all, when I posted that I was willing to agree to disagree and that I thought there wasn't any point to my continuing to egg on the discussion, people couldn't even accept the civility of that gesture at face value.

It's quite apparent that no one participating in this thread is in a state where they are receptive to anything I could say on the subject, and in all honesty, the aggressive posturing that people have employed to counter me has not done anything to endear their position to me, either. At this point, what could possibly be constructive about prolonging this thread?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

At this point, what could possibly be constructive about prolonging this thread?

I’m pretty damned sure that many people saw valid points in what you said, but were so turned off by many of the ways you expressed your points that they stayed away. I feel most people who responded to you here did listen to you, but also had every right to be repulsed by some of how you said things and called you on it while also trying to respond to your general intent…but I can say that with the remove of not being you and not feeling the malice that was returned to you directly.

If you feel that there is anything you’ve said that was out-of-line or too strongly worded or regrettable…the reason to continue the thread would be to address those points swiftly and tactfully, and maybe even retract them, so they don’t linger and taint your other interactions in this social/board...and it may defuse things enough that other people admit they were overly harsh with you. I found you so off-putting that I didn't hold back punches when, by all social rules, I should have.

If you don’t feel that, then there is no reason to continue and it will be just a dead-horse beating you should spare yourself.

ETA:
As for the irony of the situation...People tend to respond in the manner they feel they were addressed. We'd like to be above such reactions and feel we take the "high road" but we rarely do.

Tourbeau - Here's the thing. Your initial post and opinion in no way offended me. And I am one who acknowledged that this is likely going to remain a difference of opinion. I think I said I was not interested in changing your mind.

You put out there (in addition to the admitted "rant") that you wanted to know why we work these gigs and several of us gave honest and respectable answers and backed those answers up with examples, myself included. Where I am offended and where I believe you are completely out of line, is insinuating that those who do not share your opinion, yet uphold themselves and this dance to an incredibly high standard, are unethical, lack integrity, undercut and/or have no idea what they're talking about because they are not statisticians and keep detailed records of every person who walks through their door.

I really don't believe you have any place accusing others of such things without hard proof. You have none here. You have demanded that we prove our innocence with numbers and that is just not how it always works. You look at these gigs a certain way and that is fine. You offended me somewhat with your tone and demands on others, but that, too, is ultimately fine. *Updated (I was a little uppity when I wrote this last night) Do not call me an undercutter without some solid proof. Go ahead and question my ethics or integrity, but have something more fool-proof than your personal opinion to back it up. I do not go flitting about taking advantage of others (dancers or GP) for my own selfish gains. I work hard to make a decent living and I do so with every consideration of my fellow dancers. I find that these types of events are benefitial on many levels and that is why I take part in them.

But then, that is just *my* op-onion

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

It's quite apparent that no one participating in this thread is in a state where they are receptive to anything I could say on the subject, and in all honesty, the aggressive posturing that people have employed to counter me has not done anything to endear their position to me, either. At this point, what could possibly be constructive about prolonging this thread?

Here's what I got from this whole thread:

Tourbeau: Hen parties/mini-lesson compromise the integrity of our art.
Others: But people like them and they are having fun. We try to teach them a little bit about what they do.

Tourbeau: You can't prove you gain students.
Others: No, not really. But at least people learn bellydance is an enjoyable experience.

Tourbeau: You give people the wrong impression of the dance.
Others: We actually tell people a bit about the orgins of the dance and most find the moves really difficult and are, in turn, more impressed by it.

Tourbeau: You're undercutting yourself from regular lessons.
Others: We charge more for mini-lessons because more time is involved and we only teach a couple of basic moves.

Tourbeau: Just admit you're in it for the money and don't give a damn about the warm fuzzies you get from teaching other people the dance.
Others: Photo of large cat. (WTF?)

Tourbeau: You're creating zombie hordes of six-week wonders with these mini-lessons. And these six-week wonder zombies will create more and take over the bellydance world.
Me: Zombies? Where? Let me get my baseball bat.

Useful remarks in next part of message...

Tourbeau, I don't get your point of view because you seem to be all about protecting the image of bellydance by only allowing certain people to have contact with it under sterile, controlled conditions. You want publicity and awareness for bellydance but you want to control every facet of how people view it. Unfortunately, that's not possible.

You either have PR and try to sculpt the initial message --- difficult to master dance, enjoyable, culturally significant, and beautiful --- and hope the public will learn to appreciate the dance. Or you don't publicize... at all.

Here's an example of how you can do everything to put your best foot forward but you can't force people to change their opinions. There was a thread on here about family members not accepting bellydancing as the hobby of a loved one. They know the person, love them, have seen them dance, and got the lectures about cultural significance, but still think bellydancing is stripping.

You have to take the good with the bad with publicity. There are going to be people who just don't get it. There are going to be people who are apathetic. Some will be attracted to shiny objects. Others are going to go, "Wow! I love this stuff! Teach me more! I want to learn everything!"

But you are really limiting your exposure to the public by limiting the mini-lesson. Every other dance (aside from ballet, possibly) does mini-lessons --- including hula. Since the mini-lesson has gained awareness for all types of dancing, why can bellydance not benefit from the same concept, too?

I guess what I don't understand is with all your disdain for the general public, where do your students come from? Do you have recruiters hiding behind curtains in dance studios snatching up chubby ballerinas? Do you turn away students who dance simply for enjoyment? Do you instantly send people packin' when they mention of Shakira?

It sounds like you have made up your mind about the general public and have written them off. This is sad because there are a lot of great people out there who could really use something like bellydance in their lives.

Originally Posted by ozma

ETA:
As for the irony of the situation...People tend to respond in the manner they feel they were addressed.

Exactly. Perhaps that's the reason that I don't get a lot of the disrespectful, clueless guff from the GP that Tourbeau has apparently experienced so much of. I treat my GP clients, audiences and students with respect and dignity, which is likely why the great majority of the time, that's exactly what I receive in return.

Originally Posted by laura 2

Exactly. Perhaps that's the reason that I don't get a lot of the disrespectful, clueless guff from the GP that Tourbeau has apparently experienced so much of. I treat my GP clients, audiences and students with respect and dignity, which is likely why the great majority of the time, that's exactly what I receive in return.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by ozma

True. I am also speaking as someone who has bullied with words and pulled the "you've misunderstood" me ploy and re-crafted what I'd said in a light more flattering to myself......although the few times I did it on Bhuz I had the integrity to feel bad and admit, soon after, that they were right... I'd been nasty. In admitting where I'd been out of line I often and where people had had good arguements... I found others more receptive to the valid points I had.

But, I'm speaking only for myself...I should lighten up. Tourbeau may honestly be surprised by the response she's received. I may be out
of line here.

Ozma, I just plumb love you. You are extremely self-aware and deeply authentic. I only meet a few people who are willing to face up to their own bad behavior or less-than-admirable impulses (I call it my inner 2-year-old brat). I think staring down these impulses in ourselves not only helps us learn to rise above them, but helps us accept other human beings as flawed.

So impressed by you in this post, as I often am.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Ozma, I just plumb love you. You are extremely self-aware and deeply authentic. I only meet a few people who are willing to face up to their own bad behavior or less-than-admirable impulses (I call it my inner 2-year-old brat). I think staring down these impulses in ourselves not only helps us learn to rise above them, but helps us accept other human beings as flawed.

So impressed by you in this post, as I often am.

Shut up! I have a bully's bully reputation to uphold. It's sort of like being a teacher's teacher...

Originally Posted by ozma

Shut up! I have a bully's bully reputation to uphold. It's sort of like being a teacher's teacher...

you're welcome! ..g.:

Originally Posted by roguepen

Here's what I got from this whole thread:

Tourbeau: Hen parties/mini-lesson compromise the integrity of our art.
Others: But people like them and they are having fun. We try to teach them a little bit about what they do.

Tourbeau: You can't prove you gain students.
Others: No, not really. But at least people learn bellydance is an enjoyable experience.

Tourbeau: You give people the wrong impression of the dance.
Others: We actually tell people a bit about the orgins of the dance and most find the moves really difficult and are, in turn, more impressed by it.

Tourbeau: You're undercutting yourself from regular lessons.
Others: We charge more for mini-lessons because more time is involved and we only teach a couple of basic moves.

Tourbeau: Just admit you're in it for the money and don't give a damn about the warm fuzzies you get from teaching other people the dance.
Others: Photo of large cat. (WTF?)

Tourbeau: You're creating zombie hordes of six-week wonders with these mini-lessons. And these six-week wonder zombies will create more and take over the bellydance world.
Me: Zombies? Where? Let me get my baseball bat.

...

..l;, Love your summary. But I miss Jessenia here, because she would understand my immediate reaction to seeing the word "Others". I don't know if there are any LOST fans in this thread, but on that show, the original inhabitants of the "Island" are called the "Others", and as of last week we now know that they have access to the healing powers that exist in this strange place. It has yet to be determined whether they are the "bad guys" or the "good guys", but they seem to be the most powerful and knowledgeable presence, and they have been there the longest. Sorry to digress, but this ironic analogy was hopping up & down in front of me, and I couldn't resist inserting a bit of foolishness here. Hoping you will indulge the inappropriateness of this whole post........,r:;.w.:

Originally Posted by anala

My take on it ... if you feel that a thread calls upon you to justify your existence, don't answer. I just won't wear ill fitting shoes at my age.

this has certainly been a winkle picker of a thread. It's enough to give you mental bunions.

the original inhabitants of the "Island" are called the "Others", and as of last week we now know that they have access to the healing powers that exist in this strange place. It has yet to be determined whether they are the "bad guys" or the "good guys", but they seem to be the most powerful and knowledgeable presence, and they have been there the longest.

Edward Said called....

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Edward Said called....

..g.:

Still on the shoes theme.., if you could sum up where this thread went in footwear terms, here is it. Whoops, Tourbeau...there she goes!!!


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sVfcI7utOc&feature=related]YouTube - Probably the funniest fall ever caught on TV[/ame]

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

A fab Sydney dancer got what I consider to be a dream gov grant. It was a few years ago now but if I recall correctly the grant covered her traveling around the world to study intensively with a number of master teachers, including Dr Mo and Yousry, and then coming back to create and present choreographies from her study. *sigh* so awesome.

Off topic, but wanted to add: That's probably Jrisi! Dr Mo talked to me about her last year.. he has supported her in getting the grants to put up a school and she studied with him before that. *thinks* I need to talk to Dr Mo! ..l;,

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Edward Said called....

rofl

Tourbeau's stereotypical mini-lesson engaged my attention the most. There's 1000 ways to do it, and s/he was not able to switch mental gears (my assessment). Why this distressed me intrigued me until I realized that my posts are an extension of my business practice or a sharpening of my business personality. Why T would not be able to understand how other people 'do it' confused me. There's 100 success stories on here. Our own one-up events are usually in our studio before or after classes, making them helpful rent payers for a studio which has 12-15 prime-time hours/wk. The teacher is already there and we don't have to charge for transport or toting anything. Because it is in a studio, our guests GET the dance in Belly Dance. They have the same reaction our open-house guests do when they walk into our studio with floors and mirrors: 'You learn to belly dance HERE?' No, we don't give coin belts as gifts (cuts into our profit, plus they fall apart - not a good memory, n'est-ce pas? Sorry, Satin, should have mentioned this on the costume thread), we don't have an Arabic decor and we don't USUALLY do Arabic yodelling;) intro, teach, dance, drink tea, have a good time. Here's our card, would you like to be on our mailing list? We do a few events off-site but mostly in places like the local university, junior college, arts centers, ballet studios and hospital women's center. Anyway, whatever quest Tourbeau may be on, I'M here for the business angle, first, last and always. So ante up.

Originally Posted by Khalida

Off topic, but wanted to add: That's probably Jrisi! Dr Mo talked to me about her last year.. he has supported her in getting the grants to put up a school and she studied with him before that. *thinks* I need to talk to Dr Mo! ..l;,

That's the one! Fab dancer (understatement). Orchestrated and choreographed performances for the Australian Dance Festival [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKGQNs9Mdm8]YouTube - Hathor Dance Studio Bellydance performance from the Australian Dance Festival 2009[/ame] and for the opening ceremony of the World Master's Games and runs Dr Mo's sister studio 'Hathor Dance Studio' here in Aus Jrisi Hathor Dance Studio&Theatre.