Thread: Ditty on Undercutting on GS

So GS posted a little ditty about undercutting today...anyone recognize the dancer pasted onto the bag lady? It's a small photo I know!

Ask Yasmina #12 | Belly Dance News & Events - Gilded Serpent


Also note the sign: "Will teach for donations." Yes, this is actually happening in the Bay Area right now.

Oh, yes. 5.00 a class or donation.

Even Jodette makes you pay for classes!

I don't know the dancer in question, but I appreciate the heads-up on Yasmina's article. Her Q & A format is relevant, as we all have had or will have many similar situations arise in our dance careers, and I find her responses insightful and full of wisdom.


Khalida

This is a real good article - but teaching for donations is crossing over as well into the teaching in general of any type of education community. I wonder how teachers would view that?

whats the point of offering regular classes for free? i just dont get the madness

From what I know of the situation: Exposure and domination of the market. (Why PAY for a class when you can get one FREE?)

I keep trying to figure out how to word this accurately...

I agree with the teach by donation under one circumstance. There is a teacher here in the DC that teaches in an area that is underprivileged. The ladies there would never be able to afford a true dance class, let alone any class. This amazing teacher volunteers her time to these ladies to give them the gift of dance. What she does is amazing for the community and the ladies there.

In this case, I agree with donation bellydance class if you are bringing the arts to an area that would normally not have it. This is a program to bring the arts into these poor community. This is her community service and it is not easy.

I hope that all makes sense..

She does teach at other places and is paid very well.

Originally Posted by ravenadesigns

I agree with the teach by donation under one circumstance. There is a teacher here in the DC that teaches in an area that is underprivileged. The ladies there would never be able to afford a true dance class, let alone any class. This amazing teacher volunteers her time to these ladies to give them the gift of dance. What she does is amazing for the community and the ladies there.

In this case, I agree with donation bellydance class if you are bringing the arts to an area that would normally not have it. This is a program to bring the arts into these poor community. This is her community service and it is not easy.

I hope that all makes sense..

She does teach at other places and is paid very well.

Yes,I believe they have art programs, too. This one place is a community organization where teachers of all subjects teach there under the same circumstances.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Yes,I believe they have art programs, too. This one place is a community organization where teachers of all subjects teach there under the same circumstances.

I love that she does it...giving back to the community. very beautiful!

Giving back in a community where one could not otherwise find bellydance classes or offering through any organization focused on the underpriveleged are one thing which I would absolutely support, especially if the market were being upheld in other areas...unfortunately, that is not actually the case here.

Here in Vegas, there is a local non-profit group that teaches 2 free classes a month at a local library. I'm not generally bothered by this because the teacher avidly encourages the students to take regular classes and she promotes all the local events and teachers. In truth, it's like one large free advertisement that a teacher doesn't have to teach or pay for.

Additionally, it really is a great resource for underprivileged folks that would otherwise never get to dance. They've offered this for years and I've never seen a teacher go out of business because of it. In truth, I've seen the number of teachers in Vegas double over this same period of time.

The GS article is commenting on someone who is doing the "donation/free" class on a regular basis. Not for charity (although the term "gift to the community" is used - this is her regular class. This is her "gift.") I am not a teacher, so I'm wondering how teachers are reacting to or affected by this offer.

rasavitalia.com

Click on the Classes/Workshops link for details...

Resurecting out of sheer amusement...same dancer who gives weekly lessons for donation and regularly undercuts pro gigs has posted on her FB page that she is now accepting donations for anyone willing to help her buy a massage for herself. Perhaps if she was charging fairly, she could afford a massage on her own?

WTF?!!? ,m::

Originally Posted by Khalilah

Resurecting out of sheer amusement...same dancer who gives weekly lessons for donation and regularly undercuts pro gigs has posted on her FB page that she is now accepting donations for anyone willing to help her buy a massage for herself. Perhaps if she was charging fairly, she could afford a massage on her own?

what's that saying "i don't have to be mean, karma is a bigger b!tch than I could ever be"
sorry, that was bad of me.

soooooo, what sort of situations would you consider acceptable to do this? i'd add teaching at a women's shelter to the list.

That face of the bag lady TOTALLY looks like Lucy Lawless, aka Xena. Don't know who the dancer is but she looks just like the Warrior Princess!!

Offering up one's free time from time to time is a wonderful thing to do. Running one's business by way of undercutting her community, not so much.

Originally Posted by Khalilah

Resurecting out of sheer amusement...same dancer who gives weekly lessons for donation and regularly undercuts pro gigs has posted on her FB page that she is now accepting donations for anyone willing to help her buy a massage for herself. Perhaps if she was charging fairly, she could afford a massage on her own?

Originally Posted by Khalilah

Offering up one's free time from time to time is a wonderful thing to do. Running one's business by way of undercutting her community, not so much.

Well, she's not actually running a business if it's not sustaining itself and/or she's not even trying to abide by local professional standards.
As an active professional, which a DANCER is, her rates should take body work like massage into consideration... after covering her time, education, travel, music, costumes, advertising etc.

Originally Posted by Khalilah

Resurecting out of sheer amusement...same dancer who gives weekly lessons for donation and regularly undercuts pro gigs has posted on her FB page that she is now accepting donations for anyone willing to help her buy a massage for herself. Perhaps if she was charging fairly, she could afford a massage on her own?

LOL.....sigh....

Wow! I'm coming into this conversation late, but I had no idea this was going on! Trying to compete with Jodette's "3 months for $29" is hard enough, but donations for regular classes? That's not right! It's the old "you get what you pay for" in action, I guess.

I have donated the occasional class to a womens shelter, WIC (women-infants-children program in Cali), and once did an outreach program through the county jail (it was good for their self-esteem). But for all the hard work we put into learning, teaching, formatting, etc, etc. I can't imagine anyone burdening their dance community by offering regular classes for free when everyone else works so hard to provide good quality dance education - we need to get paid for that!

Every community has bad apples, huh?

People see things different ways. There's a group here, loosely associated with the SCA, who get very aggrevated at people who CHARGE money to teach bellydance. Of course, if they ever broke down and attended a class with a teacher who charges money, they might find out WHY paying a teacher can be a good thing. :)

Originally Posted by maurazebra

People see things different ways. There's a group here, loosely associated with the SCA, who get very aggrevated at people who CHARGE money to teach bellydance. Of course, if they ever broke down and attended a class with a teacher who charges money, they might find out WHY paying a teacher can be a good thing. :)

Maura,
I attend Pennsic and I teach there. EVERYONE at Pennsic and other SCA events teaches for free- in fact all SCA stuff is volunteer; from manning the gate, to cooking in camps etc. As *everything* is on a volunteer basis, I am happy to share what I know *in that environment.*
There are a good number of knowledgeable people doing the same. There are some amazing historians, who do great research.
Kawakib sometimes teaches. Carmine (in the music realm) is an EXCELLENT teacher. Pennsic was the first place I met Seido... (you're not going to find a better Romani style player)...
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkkdHXTwI_c]YouTube - ‪Seido's dumbek solo in DC - March '06 - the whole thing‬‎[/ame]
We have Sombati (he's from a drum making village in the Ivory Coast) at Pennsic as well. There are MANY others who make incredibly valuable contributions of their time and they bring really high quality.
...(continued)...

As it IS all on a volunteer basis, there most definitely IS a different set of standards. Anyone can teach, truly. Anyone who is willing to offer their time and submit it to the scheduling person. So some people are ONLY exposed to these different set of standards and don't understand that there is SO much more.
Even with all the historians around- I've heard quite a few doozies as far as inaccuracies. Mostly people who have never in their entire lives danced for an Arab or Turkish audience are giving false information about what "never" to do, what music to use, what is expected etc with Arabs, Turks etc. It's not necessarily their fault. They were taught it from someone else and simply don't have the direct exposure to be able to discern fact from fiction in this realm.
So, there are most definitely people teaching who simply "don't know how much there is that they don't know." They're not "out there" in the competitive "job market" in our field and aren't exposed to as much (such as the harsh realities of professional standards or learning from "the source" all the time). I don't think it's malicious at all. They are kind people who want to share...and there is a lot of really good sharing going on. BUT- this is and should be SCA and all volunteer events only.
The "real world" has professional standards because the "real world" has people who treat dance as a profession. Quite frankly, historically, this is relevant, and documented so really they shouldn't get their pantaloons in a bunch! Maura, I encourage you to remind them of this fact.
There are crazy politics and dramaaaaa in the SCA as well. When a person has only one venue (such as only SCA events) it can take on a higher level of importance to the person;which can contribute to...issues. It's only these few who get all antsy that other people charge good money. When they themselves can't charge good money, it's simply easier to blame it on greed (or "those others") instead of looking in the mirror at oneself.
NOTE: I am not talking about anyone in particular!

Originally Posted by Mychelledancer

Every community has bad apples, huh?

Uhhh...yeah ,r:;,f::

Sometimes, I feel like I'm the bad apple because I genuinely care about 1. making an honest living off my art and 2. making sure that all of my audiences get a wonderful first impression of belly dance.

I guess that's where creating your own market comes in ,r:;

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Maura,
I attend Pennsic and I teach there. EVERYONE at Pennsic and other SCA events teaches for free- in fact all SCA stuff is volunteer; from manning the gate, to cooking in camps etc. As *everything* is on a volunteer basis, I am happy to share what I know *in that environment.*

There are a good number of knowledgeable people doing the same. There are some amazing historians, who do great research. Kawakib sometimes teaches. Carmine (in the music realm) is an EXCELLENT teacher. Pennsic was the first place I met Seido... (you're not going to find a better Romani style player)...

Fascinating little narrative. Have never been to Pennsic but have been trying to talk 'the business partners' into going there... this will help for sure.

Here's a question:

Locally there is a group that is starting up. It is for dance, martial arts, fitness, yoga, you name it. Teachers volunteer their time to teach. People can choose to pay or to do work in exchange for classes. The idea is to allow people who couldn't otherwise afford it to attend classes of all types.

Currently I attend their muay thai class. I have thought about offering (for the short time I'll be here) to teach a couple dance classes *in exchange for martial arts instruction*.

Good? Bad? I am generally of the opinion of *always charge* for classes, but what about this situation?