Thread: Do we ask for it?

Men's attention that is. This week I received not one, but two phone calls from male admirers. One was very graphic in nature and the other was from the noted belly dance drummer (he's Baa-ACK). Oh please dudes, act like real men...

Anyway, I handled everything fine, but proceeded to do some web research on myself and I asked people to remove my first and last name from some Web sites.

One person responded no problem, but in a really nice way she told me that perhaps it was because my poster was too sexy. I post my class flyer at her establishment and she said people have commented on it and should I make it more modest.

Now I am fine with people making that kind of request and I totally respect her right to ask me to make something more modest, but the fact that me telling her about the inappropriate men spawned her remark makes me feel uncomfortable...Like almost it's my fault that people come on to me...That doesn't sit well with me.

Bottom line: It is inappropriate for men to make lewd comments about women no matter what. We are not asking for it. ,m::

My opinion of course, but what's yours?

Perhaps she means more modest means " Please take spectacular-wonderful-absolutely-the-best-bellydancer-in-the-world-beyond-compare...off the flyer"
..l;,

No really, there's a yes and a no, imo. NO to giving people the "right" to treat you poorly, threaten you, harass you, etc. etc. But also YES...both the movement and the look of the dancer are deeply sensuous and passionate...and it shows. So people will respond to it even when you are dancing in a beledi dress with a headscarf....and you have to be aware and accepting of that.

Perhaps you could have 2 or 3 images for your flyer that you post. After all, you change what you wear depending on your performance venue...outside/inside, night club/ethnic fair, hafla/competition/senior home/school........advertising is no different.

It's an interesting question. I think dressing in a sexy cleavage baring costume and performing the sensual movements (hip swaying, undulating) movements of this dance perhaps do "call" for men's and women's admiration. "Watch me dance. I am beautiful and dance beautifully."

But calling for admiration is not the same as calling for rude/lewd remarks, harassment, stalking, et cetera. The admiration we are calling for is, I think, known as APPLAUSE. Some men seem to think that performers (not just dancers) are "asking" for a lot more than that just by being on stage. Janet Jackson was stalked by a guy for almost 10 years! He thought they had a relationship!

There is a whole spectrum of how people may react to the fact that we perform. What we're asking for is merely recognition of our talent. No matter what we are wearing or doing, we are not asking for harassment or threats.

In regard to the poster -- if you showed us we could give an opinion, certainly, but ultimately the opinion that counts would be yours. Have you had a phone call straight off the poster that tried to hire you for "non dance services"? If not, then most people are just seeing a dancer, not a member of the oldest profession.

I can't pass judgment on your poster without seeing it. But I'm reminded of a news article I read some time about about female grocery store workers who were unhappy with management's requirement that they smile a lot and ask all shoppers entering the store if they could help them - the workers complained that too many of the male shoppers took this interaction as romantic interest! And grocer's uniforms are not known for being sexy.

No one running a business is "asking" to be called up and sexually harassed, whether she's running a sex toy store, provides strip-o-grams, or is an exotic dancer. Rude and manipulative people love to blame others for their own bad behaviour, but there's no reason for the rest of us to buy into their B@))$#*t.

There's no need to show the poster because I am almost 100% positive that none of these calls came from seeing the poster. Also, a couple of months ago I photoshopped the picture and made it more modest...it does have cleavage though.

Is your poster too sexy? Probably not.

Even if your poster is "too sexy", that's no reason for weirdos to call you and get inappropriate. They should either 1) enjoy the sexy anyway and move on with their day, 2) stop looking at the sexy if they don't enjoy it, or 3) write or call an involved party politely let them know if/why they feel your advertising is too sexy. Personally, I'd be very interested in what kind of feedback the studio owner is supposedly getting.

But, my answer is still "No...we don't ask for it".

It's never your fault that people are inappropriate. It would happen regardless of how you were dressed and no matter your profession. Example- catcalls. They don't know who you are or what you do for a living but they still happen.

However, if making the poster more modest (maybe a picture of you in a dress, I've seen some lovely ones of you in such an ensemble) would make you and the person who hosts your fliers more comfortable than there isn't any shame in doing that.

firstly, don't take it personally. the comments are a reflection on the caller and not you.

second, you are a business professional. all businesses seek attention. its advertising! we have to advertise. i'm sure your advertising is more modest than the traditional "girl in bikini" used to attract attention to many ads. the only difference is that the bikini model can't be reached by phone by the gp.

i'm sorry you got a gross phone call. you were not asking for it. he probably made lots of gross phone calls to many businesses. we even get gross phone calls at the esthetician's office. some people are just gross.

if disney can advertise the little mermaid in a strapless shell bikini top to children, there's no reason why we cant advertise ourselves as bellydancers in traditional costumes, to the general public.

short answer: no we are not "asking for it". we are doing business. the caller was being inappropriate when calling your business. sorry you had to deal with this, but that's what gross people do. just hang up.

I feel ya....just blocked someone on my fb fan page since they were starting to REALLY make me uncomfortable. This is the reason I have a fan page/stage name in the first place--I'm in a big alumni showcase, and the poster has my real name...because of that, I'm not putting the poster up anywhere related to my dance things, only mentioning the event name. It's sad that this crap happens.

And annoying when someone (usually male, a good friend in my case) says "well there are all these pictures of you half-naked." gah

I hope your jerk goes away!

I think we'll all agree that lewd comments are never "asked for." However, what I'm reading from your post is that while the phone calls were gross, it's really the business owner's comments that has gotten you upset. IMO, her comments are really not worth wasting energy over. I don't know her, but giving her the benefit of the doubt, her thinking is probably something along these lines:

1. I've heard people comment that Andalee's posters are sexy,
2. Someone called Andalee, telling her (albeit graphically) that she is sexy, therefore
3. The two are related and maybe I should mention it.

Yes, the reasoning is flawed. But given she wasn't telling you in a snarky tone, she probably meant well.

Or maybe your call gave her an opening to mention that some people have found your poster too sexy when she might not have felt comfortable contacting you about it otherwise. It could be that she's noticed people reacting to your poster in a negative way but that she felt awkward about mentioning it to you.

If that's the case, she was using your call as an opportunity to slip in constructive criticism about your advertising. Based on what exactly she said to you and what you know about her personality, it might be worth considering that as a possibility.

andalee -

Is this the same poster that Google ads algorithms found to be offensive?

Now, here is my take on this: people have 110 different taboos on sexy, sexuality and feeling sexy. Many move int guilt very quickly when they feel sexual attraction towards someone. They also play victim. I recently blogged about someone who PM'd me on MySpace telling my that I was sexy (thank you!) and then telling me that I was torturing him and how could I do this to him? (Dude! I live in SoCal, you live in TN. You found me. *I* did this to you?)

By making inappropriate comments, people are trying to objectify and potentially the person who they perceive as "making them stray," feel guilty for having impure thoughts or what ever. In extreme cases, this can be violent. Example, men who have been involved in Gay hate crimes many times will admit to having been physically attracted to their victim. And in the mind of the aggressor, this is bad, wrong, etc.

The truth is that no one is out there saying, take advantage of me, treat me like dirt, etc. Well, there there are a few and many need deep therapy. But I would say that this is not the case with the majority of the people here. And no one has the right to say anything to anyone which is hurtful. Technically, the caller who was graphic, sexually assaulted you. (assault is when someone threatens you or speaks to you in a way which causes distress, battery is the physical contact.)

There is also a fear which many people have of strong confident women. And it takes a lot of confidence to dress and dance the way we do. There are people who find us to be a challenge. There are people who find us to be offensive. But this is more about them and their feelings about the entire package as they perceive it than it is about us and our dance.

The only additional thing I have to say is what I was told long ago about walking across campus: appear to own where you are going, what you are doing. Present yourself as a confident, aware human being. Carry yourself like a queen, speak like a queen, remember that you are to be treated with respect. When these things work themselves into your aura, people will treat you as you demand, and the creeps will be less apparent.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

....
Now, here is my take on this: people have 110 different taboos on sexy, sexuality and feeling sexy. Many move int guilt very quickly when they feel sexual attraction towards someone. They also play victim....
By making inappropriate comments, people are trying to objectify and potentially the person who they perceive as "making them stray," feel guilty for having impure thoughts or what ever. In extreme cases, this can be violent. ...

honor killings come to mind.... even in the U.S. if you look at the way sexual crimes against women are reported and discussed-or not- we have quite a bit of victim blaming. it's a little like magazines making you think you're fat when you're really not, all that stigma puts self-blame in your head and it's really all on the person who took the inappropriate action.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

There is also a fear which many people have of strong confident women. ...But this is more about them and their feelings about the entire package as they perceive it than it is about us and our dance.....

im sure you (generic) could write a book on the psychology and sociology of this (or someone probably has ^_^)

i saw something on the tv where a guy and girl are talking about hijab and the guy says "the problem isn't what's on the woman's body it's what's in the men's hearts. you could cloth a woman in a cement block and men would still find a way to lust after her."
for anyone who says they are just men and can't be expected to withstand the temptation of a sexy woman, point out the millions of men who are quite capable of it and tell them to hand in their man-card. they have just been demoted to little boy.

Originally Posted by sabrinabellydancer

firstly, don't take it personally. the comments are a reflection on the caller and not you.

second, you are a business professional. all businesses seek attention. its advertising! .....

if disney can advertise the little mermaid in a strapless shell bikini top to children, there's no reason why we cant advertise ourselves as bellydancers in traditional costumes, to the general public.....

^ this. of course as performers we're "asking for attention" but not the inappropriate kind. i wonder if the guys who sexually harassed you understand the difference between asking their doctor to check the lymph nodes on their neck and asking their dr to give them a prostate exam. after all, they asked their dr to touch them!

Originally Posted by raqFariha

i saw something on the tv where a guy and girl are talking about hijab and the guy says "the problem isn't what's on the woman's body it's what's in the men's hearts. you could cloth a woman in a cement block and men would still find a way to lust after her."
for anyone who says they are just men and can't be expected to withstand the temptation of a sexy woman, point out the millions of men who are quite capable of it and tell them to hand in their man-card. they have just been demoted to little boy.

*applauds*..g.:

I haven't seen your poster, but having seen your other promotional material (your website, for instance), I'm doubtful that your posters are too sexy. I like Tahira's advice about conducting yourself and demanding respect, but at the same time, harassment is something that some people (men and women) think is okay. You can be completely covered, CEO of a company, whatever, and you will still be harassed.

sometimes it seems just being a woman in the public eye is "asking for it" in our society. There is someone somewhere with a fantasy or fetish for anything you could conceive of doing, and even my friend the pianist gets weird calls from time to time. I do try to put a variety of costume styles in my advertising, but that's partly because I am advertising folkloric classes too & the demographic I am aiming for would be looking for something more modest on those occasions- so yes, know your target audience & think about how you want to reach them, but I doubt you're doing anything to 'ask for it' beyond having a pulse & being female. Unless there's really something you're not telling us.....g.:

Reading this post gives me ambivalent feelings. Ofcourse we're not asking for harassment!

But we are asking for something. As dancers, we put ourselves out there, we speak up and show ourselves. We want recognition of our art, we want to be hired as entertainers, we want to be appreciated. A lot of people don't listen or look at what we're asking, but assume any kind of attention will do.

It is our right to act as free women in a modern Western society, and it's our choice to make it as clear as possible what kind of response we want. Without seeing the poster, I believe it was beautiful and stylish. There will always be jerks who don't care and still continue to be jerks to belly dancers.

*rolls eyes*
Andalee, you are pretty and blonde with a warm, friendly smile and you also happen to have a large bosom. The combination of all of the above is "sexy" to a lot of people because you look approachable and friendly. You would get calls even if you were A cup covered head to toe in burlap.

Nobody asks for anything unless they actually say it with words.

Thanks for the compliments, Zum. :)

I'm not sure I would say we are so much "asking for it" as "triggering responses to ideas that are coming from outside the dance community." From what I've seen of your personal advertising, I don't think you are being gratuitous. Some dancers do intentionally cultivate as sexy a look as possible, but you seem very conscious of trying to avoid showing too much cleavage, wearing too little clothing, etc. As Zum points out, with your appearance, you're going to draw your share of male admirers anyway, so unless you want to start posing in a full burqa, there's only so much you can do (and even then, there's no guarantee you won't find a fan who's into that).

The media cultivates a very blatantly sexual image of this dance and that is the real enemy. As long as the GP associates what we do with exotic women lounging around on pillows, waiting for their turn to have sex with the Sultan, this is going to be a problem. As long as our costumes evoke the image of some lucky guy being fed grapes while beautiful women fan him and attend to his every wish because he's in the "harem"--the hot-to-trot den of iniquity, not the interior of the house where the women of the family were safe from prying eyes and lewd intentions of male strangers to the household--this is going to draw the wrong kind of attention to dancers who are not trying to come across that way. This is an ignorance problem, an image problem that is much larger than one dancer and one weirdo.

Does that mean all dancers should be more aware when they plan their own media presentations and not give in to the kitsch when they are given the opportunity to do interviews? Should all dancers be more conscious of how they choose to present themselves, and avoid posing seductively in costume on pillows or uploading overtly sexualized videos on YouTube? I think so, but others say they have to do what gets them work, and they're giving people what they expect and want. I don't think it is entirely a bad idea for working dancers to maintain multiple portfolios of advertising material to correspond to different targets (nightclub gigs, party gigs, educational outreach, whatever you're aiming for), just because it gives you more options for navigating these situations. Unfortunately, these issues do come up. If you're online, you have to find a balance between making yourself commercially available and making yourself vulnerable.

Originally Posted by raqFariha

if you look at the way sexual crimes against women are reported and discussed-or not- we have quite a bit of victim blaming.

Yup. That's what I was just thinking. Plus, there's this entire culture of paranoia (can we say, Lifetime movies?). Why is it that every time I pick up a Cosmo or Redbook when I'm waiting at the salon or doctor's office, there's always some type of horror article in the back about some woman who gets raped while jogging alone, or whatever? I just read one about car jacking in Glamour that outwardly encouraged female readers to never drive anywhere alone. I mean, come on - not to trivialize heinous violent crimes, but are we supposed to have male chauffeurs bring us to work every day? Where do we draw the line?

That being said, I really don't think any of us are "asking" for harrassment of any nature, nor should we apologize for the reactions we provoke in others. Nor should we dumb our dancing down in the odd chance that somebody might act out of turn. We could torture ourselves to find out what role we play in the bizarre phone calls and e-mails we get. But given that it happens to all of us (including me, and Google would probably mistake my chest for that of a little boy!), I think it's safe to say that this is a larger problem. Our dance does have its misconceptions, and some men are perverts (or weirdos with no social filter). We can control our publicity, as Tourbeau suggests. We can all make efforts to hopefully someday correct the stereotypes. But we can't always control men who don't have a grip on their sexual urges, or ultra-conservative people who think we show too much skin even in a galabeya, or jealous women who feel intimidated by our confidence.

This sort of thing can and will make you crazy sometimes. I always try to hold my head up high and remind myself that there are so many people out there who love and respect what I do. Why is it that we forget the compliments and focus on the negative things people say about us? So go back and take a minute to think about some really nice things people have said to you recently. That's the stuff that should take prime real estate in our brains!

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I just read one about car jacking in Glamour that outwardly encouraged female readers to never drive anywhere alone. I mean, come on - not to trivialize heinous violent crimes, but are we supposed to have male chauffeurs bring us to work every day? Where do we draw the line?

I read that article to, and I questioned the same thing; do they expect us to get male chauffers to take us everywhere?!
What if you live alone?!

I agree that it doesn't matter what you wear!

Another attitude that p*sses me off, is if a young lady is working, she's also saying that she's available (especially in retail) and needs a man in her life to take care of her.
(I'm here to make a living, not get picked up)

I remember how some men hated my (fake) confidence.

So NO! You didn't ask for it!
Also, if the lady herself thought the flyer was inappriate; I don't think she would have allowed it to be put up.
It sounds like she's questioned herself, after (supposedly) hearing others comments, and when you told her about the calls.

I like your pics!

The men that called you were (deleted)!

You will be going through more of this from men (all of you will)!

(((Hugs!)))

I'm sure your advertising was just fine! Sometimes this stuff just "comes with the territory." The other posters are right; it says way more about the inappropriate caller than about you. Blow it off and carry on!

I don't think any woman wants to get harassed. But in a way I also feel that the modern woman thing (I can act and dress however I feel like) is also very self centered.

Men are much more programmed by their instincts than women, and it's kind of unfair towards them to trigger their instincts all the time and then laugh about them and call them jerks.

It's got to do with mutual respect to be aware of it. Honestly, I wouldn't be charmed if men ran around with tight trousers so you can see their erection or how well endowed they are, I'd feel harassed even though indirectly. Even though men like to be "harassed" by "bursting-out-of their-boundaries"-bosoms, they'll always think that it is directed at them and that they therefore are invited somehow but then again they're not...confusing for the manimal...(sorry guys if I make you sound like dimwhits...).

And I guess most women want to be attractive to men, but they underestimate how men often have to fight their instincts to come across as civilized.

Just accompanied a busload of Spaniards to a football game as a transfer-hostess, jolly guys, not drunk, and how they cheered when they passed the big advertisement with the bikini girls on it... and then the woman reclined in cushions to advertise shaving blades for women. I thought, they're really getting this on every corner...

Men will get turned on no matter what, women could be wearing a trash bag and if a man find her attractive, her wearing a trash bag wouldn't matter. We do not ask for it. I get super annoyed when people say well Men can't help it. Yea you can stop being a douchebag very easily. I get a lot of crap said to me when guys find out I am a twin. Do I ask for it because I happened to be lucky enough to be born with a twin sister? No! There are plenty of guys who are respectable and plenty of guys who are D**ks.

Originally Posted by KDizzle

I get super annoyed when people say well Men can't help it.

I.Did.Not.Say.That! Capisci?
Guys that harass women are generally disrespectful towards women.
Stalkers obsess with women for all sort of strange ideas in their head. They're borderline freaks! Generally the victim can't influence that at all. It's sick.

But even the most polite man will think things we don't want to hear when seeing a woman performing a dance in clothes that enhance her femininity. Also when he's fully aware that he'd better not pronounce it.

I think btw. it's rather the exposure through posters than the dress btw. Cute faces, innocent looking girls, the youthful age, blondes or the odd harem fantasy, foot fetishists or the fact that you can book the dancer - all that can get someone to obsess with you. And it's potentially dangerous as well.

No you said it was in they are programmed by their instincts which is sort've the same thing. Sorry if I took it the wrong way but it seemed like you were trying to give guys a pass for being jerks.

I think that polite to your face people, regardless of gender, will think things that are not what others want to hear. And some people (male or female) will think they're paying a compliment by saying something lewd or disrespectful.

Originally Posted by KDizzle

We do not ask for it. I get super annoyed when people say well Men can't help it.

It doesn't sound like this is the case in this particular situation, but there is a segment of the Islamic world that buys into such ideas very heavily. If you are encouraged to believe that female "decency" is limited to a small and rigid set of acceptable behaviors, then you can easily fall into a mind set where a woman doing things that are considered outside that set--even though they are quite normal and innocent in other societies--can become grounds for great moral outrage and punishment. Personally, I can't wrap my mind around the idea that a woman should be blinded and scarred with acid for wanting to go to school, or that she's asking for rape by letting a wisp of hair fall on her forehead, but that thinking does exist, and not always only in men that we associate with lone psychopaths in the West. Some Middle Eastern scholars believe this extreme misogyny is actually cultivated intentionally to preoccupy and divert a population's frustration and rage, so that it isn't directed at the people in power ("Attack each other, not us"), but that's a discussion for another thread.