Thread: Seminar Shows By Invitation Only

This is probably a sticky question, but...

I've been noticing seminar shows lately that are by invitation/audition only. Is this a new trend? And if so, why? Are the producers of the seminar/show wanting to make money off the show video, I guess, so they are trying to limit participation to ensure quality?

Maybe I am the only one bothered by this. I know it is still the individual's choice to take the seminar or not, but in the past I have always seen shows offered to everyone. It was just part of the package deal. Bonus, right?! :) I know this probably sounds kind of catty too, but I don't really like the idea of the sponsor of the show thinking herself qualified to judge whether I am a good enough dancer or not. I feel my skills meet or exceed those of many seminar sponsors, and it's just kind of annoying to me the whole "Are you good enough to be in my show?" baloney (or bologna, if you prefer..g.: ). Who says the seminar sponsor is good enough to be in her own video, other than herself?

And yes, once again, I realize it is the show producer's perogative to choose who will be in the video, and that, yes, I can always choose not to participate.

On first thought, I wonder why the seminar producer doesn't choose to film a higher-quality performance video at a time other than the time of the seminar show, so that the participants all have a chance to perform, and see their peers perform. Especially when the show venue is at a location other than the location of the seminar, thereby necessitating a completely separate charge for the show venue.

Maybe trying to make a little extra money to help herself/himself at least break even in the end?

what exactly is a seminar show usually then? we dont really have those. workshops often go accompanied by a gala in a theatre, and then ofcourse the sponsor selects the dancers herself... the gala is promoted seperately and has a seperate ticket, sometimes with a deduction for people in the workshops, but mostly not.

is it more like a hafla then?

Well, my first thoughts...

Being a show producer is a different set of skills from dance. I wouldn't assume a show producer gets to judge people's dance skills because she's a better dancer than them. I'd assume she gets to choose who's in her show because it's HER show, she's laying out the cash & taking the risks.

I imagine that it's not possible to let everyone dance in a workshop show where there are 150 or more participants. Even 50 or more. That would be a looooong show.

So the show producer has to include some and exclude others, which I'm betting is a tough job!

So each producer can choose for herself how to do this. I'm guessing you feel compelled to include people who've offered you & your students spots in their shows first, because it would be a slap in the face not to reciprocate. Visiting dancers who have a strong reputation but locals haven't gotten to see in person would be a given, everyone would be upset if they didn't dance.

After that, if any spots are left, the producer would have to divvy up however she saw fit. First come first served? Audition/invitation? It's really up to the person putting on the show. But when you have an audience full of people who've paid for tickets to the show, your first obligation is to give them the best possible show.

People who paid for the workshop get....the workshop! I don't agree that they're somehow entitled to also perform, necessarily.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

what exactly is a seminar show usually then? we dont really have those. workshops often go accompanied by a gala in a theatre, and then ofcourse the sponsor selects the dancers herself... the gala is promoted seperately and has a seperate ticket, sometimes with a deduction for people in the workshops, but mostly not.

is it more like a hafla then?

Most of ours are exactly like this. The dancers are generally selected from among workshop participants, and the 'theater' is often the same room where the workshop was held, set up with a stage and seating. Often a buffet is served. Tickets run about $20, and people get angry if they learn they've bought a ticket to watch someone's beginner classes perform.

The workshop shows in my region come in three flavors:
1) $5 ticket - first-come, first-serve call-in or sign-up sheet to dance, workshop teacher also dances.
2) $20 ticket - first-come, first-serve call-in or sign-up sheet to dance, workshop teacher also dances.
3) $20 ticket - workshop organizer picks performers, workshop teacher also dances.

Number 2 is problematic because of the high-ticket price coupled with varying quality.

Lauren - we posted at the same time with the same thought!

Originally Posted by CFerhat

The workshop shows in my region come in three flavors:
1) $5 ticket - first-come, first-serve call-in or sign-up sheet to dance, workshop teacher also dances.
2) $20 ticket - first-come, first-serve call-in or sign-up sheet to dance, workshop teacher also dances.
3) $20 ticket - workshop organizer picks performers, workshop teacher also dances.

Number 2 is problematic because of the high-ticket price coupled with varying quality.

Ditto for this area, although the #2 option may carry a bit lower ticket price.

Are the invited performers still paying for the workshop? I'm just curious, because way back in the time of yore most seminar shows were made up of invited performers only...but...and this is key....they were....wait for it....PAID! Yes, uhuh, they received monetary compensation for their efforts in the world of professional dance! Can you believe that concept? In that case, I think anyone can pay for whomever they please.

However! It seems that several things began to evolve, at least in this area. Sponsors found they were losing money. To pay for these performers, not to mention the seminar teachers/performers, often including air fare as well as accomodation, often meant breaking even was tough. So someone came up with the brilliant idea of inviting workshop participants to perform ... therefore deflecting a major portion of the costs. Good idea? Maybe for the sponsors, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize it also meant deterioration of the quality of the performances.

It could be that some sponsors want to bring the performance quality back up again. It could be that some of them want to cut down on the repetitiveness and length of the show ... both of which can get tedious. I totally understand your resentment towards the concept and you're right ... not all sponsors are going to have the qualifications to make those judgements. However, if this becomes a trend, I do believe that those who make bad judgements will find they get less attendance.

Some seminar sponsors market the show to the general public. In order to ensure that people keep coming back for future shows, these sponsors want to ensure quality. They often have a core audience whom they have developed over their years, and when they produce a show, their reputation is on the line with these people. They do invitation-only shows to ensure a quality presentation, thereby ensuring that future shows will continue to draw large audiences from the community.

It's not about making money from a video. It's about drawing a large audience from the general public, giving them a high-quality show for their money, showing the public that our dance form offers artistic presentation on a par with shows they have seen featuring other dance forms, and building/maintaining a base of audience members who will support future shows as a result of having enjoyed the one for this seminar.

If people have to pay for a ticket, they deserve to see a good show. It's nothing more than a wise business decision, in my opinion.

Shows cost money to host. Not to mention a lot of work on the sponsor's part. So, you need to sell tickets - you need to open the show up to the general public to make enough to get by and hopefully make a little for your efforts.

I don't think you have to be an AWESOME dancers to take part in the show... it's more or less as Lauren suggests - not expecting your audience to pay $20 a ticket to see beginner's perform. Nothing against beginners, of course... but the show could become very long and honestly not as enjoyable as a show consisting of talented, established dancers. It's not meant to insult anyone or make them feel judged - it's just a business decision.

Last fall I went to a workshop show. Tickets were about $25 or so and there were some student groups. Aside from the group of children that everyone loved, I could hear a lot of whispers and griping from audience members who were peeved-off to have paid a ticket for a show... not a student recital.

Do things like that, and people won't come back to see your next show....

If you just want to see your peers perform, then I guess you just hold a hafla sort of party where people can perform. But if you do that, you have to charge your performers entry, and you also won't have enough cash to pay your star instructor to perform. Which really... everyone wants to see!

As an audience member attending a seminar show, I expect to see a show of high excellence and quality. When the show is starring a celebrity in our bellydance world, I would like to see the surrounding acts compliment the star of the show nicely.

Usually, we have the friday night hafla where all of the community is invited to participate. Then the saturday night show where the talent is hand picked by the producer to ensure a high quality show.

I know that I have been to my fair share of shows where I have left dismayed that I paid good money for that ticket. Geez, I went to a show over the summer where the person I sat next to feel asleep!!!

Invite only and or auditions are common practice around my area I believe. I see nothing wrong with it at all.

Nilaja

Originally Posted by vilia

Are the invited performers still paying for the workshop? I'm just curious, because way back in the time of yore most seminar shows were made up of invited performers only...but...and this is key....they were....wait for it....PAID! Yes, uhuh, they received monetary compensation for their efforts in the world of professional dance! Can you believe that concept? In that case, I think anyone can pay for whomever they please.

I participated in a workshop show in May, and while I was not "paid", the organizer gave me one of the two day workshops for free...that's payment enough for me!

I did have to send in an audition tape though, which I think is a good practice. Like Lauren and so many others have stated, I paid for a show, not a recital or hafla. I have no problem paying $5-10 for a hafla and watching the beginning students, or experimental routines. I love those actually, and perform at them quite often. But if I'm forking out $20+ for a "Show", I want there to be more experienced performers up there. I can think of several shows I've seen that just dragged on and on because LOTS of workshop participants performed...this was an almost 4 hour show...the bad thing was that there were several performances that were just not the quality I was expecting. (example: People looking angry, scared, nervous...not what I expected from a "show". ...)

I do like that organizers open up the show to the workshop participants, but, there has to be a way of ensuring that the audience is not going to: 1. Get bored because the same troupe has been dancing to monotonous techno Arab pop for the last 10 minutes, and shows no sign of stopping. (Yes, I'm exaggerating.) 2. Get upset because they are watching a bunch of beginners when they were expecting professionals...(again, NOTHING against beginning students or beginning troupes, but I don't believe that a workshop Show or gala is the appropriate place to get performing experience...that's what student recitals or haflas are for.)
I think invitation, or auditions are the best way to do it...

Anyway...that's my $.02.

:)
~Yasmin

My bottom line is I value both kinds of shows. The dance community needs both.

I think if the show is being billed heavily to the general public, then either 1) the ads need to clearly indicate that both professional and student/amateurs will perform, or 2) the show needs to be professional in all aspects.

Ticket price needs to reflect the above choice.

Personally, I like see a good show, where good dancers get a decent chunk of time to do their thing. I also really dislike shows that go longer than 2 hours.

I don't think its the show producer's obligation to make sure everyone gets a chance to dance.

Sedonia

Originally Posted by gotraqs

I don't really like the idea of the sponsor of the show thinking herself qualified to judge whether I am a good enough dancer or not.

Qualified or not, it's HER show, and SHE has the right to select dancers based on her vision for the program. Let's say an organizer wants to put on a show featuring only dances of Egypt. It is her right to refuse a dancer who specializes in Turkish style, even though that dancer might be highly skilled in her particular area of expertise.

It can sting not to be invited to perform in a show, but in the end one has to acknowledge that it's the organizer's prerogative who she invites to perform in her shows, since they are, after all, HER shows.

Nisaa

Originally Posted by ssipes

My bottom line is I value both kinds of shows. The dance community needs both.

I think if the show is being billed heavily to the general public, then either 1) the ads need to clearly indicate that both professional and student/amateurs will perform, or 2) the show needs to be professional in all aspects.

Ticket price needs to reflect the above choice.

Personally, I like see a good show, where good dancers get a decent chunk of time to do their thing. I also really dislike shows that go longer than 2 hours.

I don't think its the show producer's obligation to make sure everyone gets a chance to dance.

Sedonia

I agree with Sedonia. I was about to write a similar response, and she saved me the trouble! ..l;,

Thanks for your replies. :) I think I just prefer a mix of shows, the situation where you have a more informal hafla-like performance on one night, and a more professional show on another night. I haven't been "stung" by not being asked to perform. I realize, unless you market yourself well in many local and non-local markets, dance at many local and non-local events, or send in an audition tape, the sponsor won't have any knowledge of your dance skills, good or bad. I can understand not wanting a show to be too long. I have been to some that were close to 4 hours. Ow!

I like a mix of shows too. A lot of our local haflas run 4-5 hours and feature tons of beginners, and I'm always right there until the end! I've only missed a handful of local haflas since I started dancing, and I've traveled out of town to perform at or watch some as well.

But yeah, it's nice to have different kinds of shows as well, and when the out-of-town dancers come for a workshop it's a great opportunity to see a different kind of show.

I like haflas and I go to them. I expect to see newer dancers, experimental pieces etc, and I think that's fine.

when it's a show that I'm being charged $$$ on top of my workshop fee, I expect a good show. If there is a beginner in it, s/he better be rockin'.

I support invitational only because of that. There is a time and place for beginner's to debut, the $$$ show ain't it.

I agree with all above. Student shows are great and they have their place in our community. But if I'm asked to pay $20 for a show ticket, then have to sit through 3+ hours of student performers, I get antsy and irritated.

When I plan events and shows, I always invite the performers. I try to keep the show to about 2 hours, including an intermission. I also try to select performers from a variety of styles to give a well-rounded show. And, yes, I do try to compensate performers in some way or another, be it a free workshop or dvd or SOMETHING. We all are ready to complain when the GP doesn't want to pay us, yet no one bats an eye when we don't want to pay each other! Personally, I think compensating show performers should become the standard, not the exception.

I think it comes down to terminology--I call my gothic events haflis because they're about community and I want them to be open to everyone. I do try to ensure that I get some dancers who are known to me as good entertainers on the bill, so I do a mix of invite and open call. In the Boston dance community at large, I think it's understood that a hafli will be a mixed bag. If I were calling my event a show, a gala or whatever madeup name, I would go all invitational or possibly have people send performance clips and resumes.

Till now I'm organizing it with 2 ways

a) if the Teacher/dancer that will teach the workshop we have a BIG show at theatre, with other dancers of the local community, all of them picked and this have nothing to do with the workshop. (open to audience, usualy 10 to 15 euro ticket)

b) if the teacher/dancer that will teach the workshop dont want to perform we have a hafla at the Studio, where the participants ONLY of the workshop will perform/full costume and we have a small boufet to honor the teacher and know eachother. (5 to 10 euro ticket)

Maria Aya, Greece

As an organizer I truly struggle with the "who is in" and "who is out" choices. But I do feel better knowing that we have ongoing regular monthly haflas that people can perform at and there are lots of opportunities in our area for up and comming dancers to strut their stuff.

Cost of the venue, expected attendance, the amount of time for the show, the performer's ability to "draw", the cost of the dancers & tech people...they all factor into the choices. It almost never boils down strictly to "talent". There are lots of talented dancers. It's about how can I create the best show possible and keep the costs affordable. Balance...it's all about balance.

For whatever it's worth...at my "shows", all of my performers receive some form of compensation. It may be free workshops, vending opportunities, advertisements, or (yes, it's true) cash. And not only do I pay the performers, but I also compensate the core group of "directors" that help make the event happen.

I hope this will make some folks/dancers feel less "judged".

There's another thing to take into account when having students in a gala show, especially student troupes. Having an all pro-show can actually reduce attendance, because those students are the ones most likely (at least in my area) to get lots of friends and family to buy show tickets so they can come and see them. For this reason, I don't mind at all if a workshop showcase includes a scattered few student troupes, especially if the lineup is *mostly* high-quality dancers. I agree that all pro shows are great, and certainly my personal preference - but in my personal experience, they are less well attended that a show with a mix of performers.

Originally Posted by laura 2

There's another thing to take into account when having students in a gala show, especially student troupes. Having an all pro-show can actually reduce attendance, because those students are the ones most likely (at least in my area) to get lots of friends and family to buy show tickets so they can come and see them. For this reason, I don't mind at all if a workshop showcase includes a scattered few student troupes, especially if the lineup is *mostly* high-quality dancers. I agree that all pro shows are great, and certainly my personal preference - but in my personal experience, they are less well attended that a show with a mix of performers.

Well, and to add to your valid point...it's also hard to watch solo after solo after solo. It's nice to have a good variety of group/solo performances and a healthy range of styles too. That's my personal preference anyway.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I don't mind at all if a workshop showcase includes a scattered few student troupes, especially if the lineup is *mostly* high-quality dancers.

This is the kind of show that I prefer. Variety is the spice of life! I LOVE to watch beginning students because of the energy and enthusiasm that they bring. I probably wouldn't pay $20 for a show that featured almost all students and only a few feature performers, but for $20 I definitely enjoy seeing some students mixed in among the more seasoned dancers. That's just my preference, though.