Thread: Manager of Mid East Restaurant too Religious for Dancers?

I was in a local middle eastern restaurant - Sultan's, and I asked the girl behind the counter if they were interested in having dancers (I knew they didn't have any, but a great place to have them!). She said she would go back and ask her manager (probably owner too, or related to the owner). She comes back and says he isn't, 'He is really religious'. I said ok, thanks and left. Sooo anyone else have this happen? What do you think? It is a nice restaurant - sort of looks like Olga's inside. This is an international area, but not one with a notably religious population and I hadn't heard anything so it caught me off guard. This is one of those international restaurants where the majority of the patrons are caucasian locals.

well either it could be true or (ime) it could be code for many things, including but not limited too :
we don't want to spend money on entertainment
we can't afford a cabaret license
we've done something in the past to offend the licensing board
we're not zoned for it
my wife won't have it in our business because (insert lots of standard excuses)

honestly, it could be anything. or, maybe they belong to a religious group that frowns on dancing in public.

just don't take it personally. we often never find out people's true motivations. hope you find a great venue soon.

What Sabrina said.

And as my boss used to say when I worked in advertising sales and dealt with tons of rejection/objections/excuses from prospective clients, "Some will, some won't...so what?"

,r:;

Too cheap for cabaret licence or wife says "no" to all the cleavage.

Agree to all that Sabrina said as well as to Carrara's boss opinion.

Not every restaurant want or could afford entertainment or their customers just don't want it. Some customers just don't like to watch belly dancing. Oh well.

Manager of middle eastern restaurant is usually the owner as I have learned in our local area.

if they said he's too religious i would just leave it at that rather than look too deeply into it.

Why wouldn't the owner of a nice international restaurant be religious? or why would his religion be something you'd hear about if you don't know him personally?

I know several very devout Christians who own secular businesses. Their businesses don't reflect their religion outwardly or even necessarily attract other highly religous people as customers. But they're naturally going to be guided by their values in business decisions. (anyone else remember when Cracker Barrel refused to hire homosexuals?)

So it doesn't surprise me at all that a devout Muslim could own a secular restaurant frequented by people who aren't necessarily Muslims.

But it sounds like in this case, the owner probably just said 'tell her no' and the girl behind the counter, knowing he was religious, extrapolated the reason. I don't get the sense that the owner said 'no, because I'm religious.'

So it could be that's the reason (and if he's very religious, I can imagine he's not interested in having dancers). Or it could be that he doesn't feel like it's a good move for his business financially.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

(anyone else remember when Cracker Barrel refused to hire homosexuals?)

ITA with Lauren's post.

ME restaurants don't *have* to have dancers, just like no business *has* to have costly frills. And really, isn't it better that they don't have dancers than that they have random girls in bras dancing for free/felafel?

There's a recession on, and dancers are a costly extra that many restaurants would not be able to justify. Truthfully. The margins on food are *nothing*.

There's a fairly new Middle Eastern restaurant in my area that has really good food, as well as a small live music ensemble a couple of nights a week. The space is very compact -- the musicians tend to look like they're sitting in a closet -- and it would be difficult to make space for a performance area, but I was thinking about asking anyway if they were interested in having a dancer. But I heard from someone that the owner is "kind of conservative" (meaning in the religious sense) and doesn't want to have dance performances there.

I was also told that a lot of the Middle Eastern restaurant owners around here have the same outlook -- they just want to have a restaurant for families to eat, no shows (although I couldn't name any other examples besides this place). If it's true, I'd say maybe this response is more common than you might expect.

Thanks JeanneLF, thats all I wanted to know ,r:;

Not that I was there ... but it seems in the more free wheeling days in the 60 and 70, even the 80s, the restaurant and club owners seem to have placed a premium on attracting a Western and monied clientèle. Not that money is a bad thing, but now owners may be catering to a clientèle that values Halal. This may be a sign of more and better integration of Muslims into American society. Discuss....

They might also be fiscally conservative. Just sayin'.

Originally Posted by JoharaRaqs

I was in a local middle eastern restaurant - Sultan's, and I asked the girl behind the counter if they were interested in having dancers (I knew they didn't have any, but a great place to have them!). She said she would go back and ask her manager (probably owner too, or related to the owner). She comes back and says he isn't, 'He is really religious'. I said ok, thanks and left. Sooo anyone else have this happen? What do you think? It is a nice restaurant - sort of looks like Olga's inside. This is an international area, but not one with a notably religious population and I hadn't heard anything so it caught me off guard. This is one of those international restaurants where the majority of the patrons are caucasian locals.

I live in New Havan CT and we have 2 such placesin West Haven. They are Muslim they just do not believe in women dancing in public . As entertainment or for work. My friend was dating one of the owners. He just doesnt want dancers period!

The only restaurant to offer live music and belly dance in Philadelphia (one night a week on Fridays) just stopped having dancers, but are keeping the live band. The restaurant was sold and the new owners are conservative Muslims and don't wish to have dancing at their establishment.

It stinks for us, but what can you do? (Until, of course, I win powerball and build the most awesome belly dance night club venue on the East Coast.)

Originally Posted by phillyraqs

Until, of course, I win powerball and build the most awesome belly dance night club venue on the East Coast.

Do ittttttt!!!

Originally Posted by phillyraqs

The only restaurant to offer live music and belly dance in Philadelphia (one night a week on Fridays) just stopped having dancers, but are keeping the live band. The restaurant was sold and the new owners are conservative Muslims and don't wish to have dancing at their establishment.

It stinks for us, but what can you do? (Until, of course, I win powerball and build the most awesome belly dance night club venue on the East Coast.)

You aren't talking about Konak are you? I didn't hear that if that is the case that truly sucks....

And that is right a lot of places that are middle eastern themed are owned by muslims... and at the heart of it Most muslims consider women dancing to be Haram(religiously illegal). And quite a few consider dancing in general and even music to be Haram. Many restaurant owners i think tolerate it because welll it brings in more money. But i know in philadelphia a lot of the middle eastern food restaurants also serve Halal/Zabiha(similar to kosher food for muslims) so they do have a muslim attendance.I remember one time dancing for a student show some years back and i look at one table and there is a table full of muslims that i/my husband knew
that kept me from dancing at restaurants for many years.

It stinks for us, but what can you do? (Until, of course, I win powerball and build the most awesome belly dance night club venue on the East Coast.)

I want in on that venture... been trying to figure out where to get money to open an establishment like that

Do it, girls. For that I'll move back to Philly and come see you every night. You'll be making my Mamma Rita very, very happy!

Many restaurant owners i think tolerate it because welll it brings in more money. But i know in philadelphia a lot of the middle eastern food restaurants also serve Halal/Zabiha(similar to kosher food for muslims) so they do have a muslim attendance.

See, that is the point I was trying to make in my previous post (#11) that while this lack may suck for us as dancers, it may be an indication that there is a trend to greater and perhaps more authentic representation of Muslim culture into that of America. These owners now care about pleasing their own and are economically sufficient in doing so, with no need to draw from the mainstream.

Anala,

I think you are right there.

In the UK, places frequented by Arabs/Arabfamilies dont generally have belly dancers. It is mostly restaurants who cater for local clientele.

Occasionally a belly dancer will be hired for parties etc. women and kids may even leave at the part where the belly dancer enters.

We owned an Egyptian Shisha/restaurant and only used dancers when requested.

90% of our customers were Middle Eastern and were not interested in having their shisha or kebab interupted by a belly dancer.

It is funny because when we opened, we were instantly bombarded by belly dancers business cards and dancers turning up to introduce themselves.

Most of them I had never heard of despite the fact they claimed to be famous.

I think many dancers see these places as a lost business opportunity and some are extremely baffled that you dont need a dancer every weekend.

It is almost assumed that because your place is Middle Eastern then you MUST have a belly dancer.. and find you really weird if you dont.

Originally Posted by Khuzama

You aren't talking about Konak are you? I didn't hear that if that is the case that truly sucks....

Bingo. Stinks, huh? The owners sold to new owners who are keeping the band, but firing Rena. No belly dancing for them, they are very religious.

Yes, I will be definitely building the biggest, baddest, most awesome nightclub ever when I hit the lottery. Full bands, dancers every night. I even know the location where I'd build it - isn't that sad? Come on Powerball or Mega Millions! Baby needs a nightclub!

..cr.:..cr.: Soo sad to hear that konak is removing the bellydance. Is rena still performing there or have they already ended it?

Originally Posted by Khuzama

...But i know in philadelphia a lot of the middle eastern food restaurants also serve Halal/Zabiha(similar to kosher food for muslims) so they do have a muslim attendance..

Originally Posted by anala

See, that is the point I was trying to make in my previous post (#11) that while this lack may suck for us as dancers, it may be an indication that there is a trend to greater and perhaps more authentic representation of Muslim culture into that of America. These owners now care about pleasing their own and are economically sufficient in doing so, with no need to draw from the mainstream.

The ME restaurants here in DC and Baltimore serve Halal. All the ones that I know of, including all the ones where I work. A couple places where I work there are mostly American audiences, but most have primarily Arab customers (some largely Turkish)... some who come in *for* the dancing and music entertainment.
Having Muslims in attendance does not make a restaurant not have dancing. Many Muslims (ranging from liberal to conservative) insist on only eating Halal.
Having *conservative* Muslims in attendance or a *conservative* Muslim owner (or wife) however does make a difference. Just as with all the religions- there are variations in practice.

Yep...sorry for the over generalization. Lazy typing strikes again.

Originally Posted by anala

Yep...sorry for the over generalization. Lazy typing strikes again.

It's all good. I know we have some newer dancers on here as well, though- so best to be clear and not create confusion. ..g.:

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

The ME restaurants here in DC and Baltimore serve Halal. All the ones that I know of, including all the ones where I work. A couple places where I work there are mostly American audiences, but most have primarily Arab customers (some largely Turkish)... some who come in *for* the dancing and music entertainment.
Having Muslims in attendance does not make a restaurant not have dancing. Many Muslims (ranging from liberal to conservative) insist on only eating Halal.
Having *conservative* Muslims in attendance or a *conservative* Muslim owner (or wife) however does make a difference. Just as with all the religions- there are variations in practice.

Well i suppose... I'll try to not respond to this with my muslim hat or (khimar) on but I guess when i say muslims i am generally referring to those muslims would call practicing musilms. But true there are definately variations in practice. I used to teach all sister's classes of muslims and they would be ok dancing as long as it were all women... and then there are people who won't do it even in privacy because all forms of dancing being haram no matter the situation. Though practicing muslims will attend restaurants like that in general if they were asked what their thoughts on having a dancer there were in front of other muslims the response would be Haram. Except maybe from some sufi's.

Originally Posted by Khuzama

Well i suppose... Though practicing muslims will attend restaurants like that in general if they were asked what their thoughts on having a dancer there were in front of other muslims the response would be Haram. Except maybe from some sufi's.

I guess it may depend upon your definition of "practicing Muslim". I know some who do the prayers, don't drink, only eat Halal etc, but who DO get up and dance themselves and who comment positively on Oriental dance. They themselves consider themselves to be practicing Muslims. This is of course surrounded by other Muslims doing the same thing. Some get a little skittish if cameras are around, worried pictures might get back home. Some don't care. They don't want their sisters doing it- but happily enjoy it.
Some Sufi's are dead set AGAINST Oriental dance... I know one whom even after years of playing for dancers, now it is beneath them.
The only Haram thing *all* the Muslim's I know comply with is the prohibition of pork.

I have conservative Christian friends who also will not drink, dance, or play cards. I have others who are also practicing Christians who are some of the biggest party animals I have ever seen.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

The only Haram thing *all* the Muslim's I know comply with is the prohibition of pork.

That is a sad but pretty true statement. Stuff like that is one of the reasons i am particularly not religious anymore. But i won't get too sidetracked on a bellydance blog.

When i say sufi's or even some other schools of thought would agree that Dancing is ok i dont really mean i guess oriental dance. Some sufi groups include dance as part of ritual. I don't think there is a muslim scholar who would say that it is ok for a woman to bellydance(in public), ok to watch women dance nor have it at your establishment.... same goes for alchohol i think that would be even more of a consensus that it is not to be drank, sold or even have a bottle touched by muslim hands but i have been to restaurants that claimed they sold halal meat but also sold alchohol(argstafullalah, a oudubileh) but people are people and people do what they want to do. I used to be pretty religious. I prayed, ate only halal, wouldn't speak or shake hands with men, I even wore niqab briefly, but i still bellydanced because it was what i wanted to do, however i wouldn't have been caught dead doing it by muslims. And if someone asked me personally(even to this day) wow i didn't know that muslim women could dance like that in public... i would say well it is haram but you know we all sin.

Originally Posted by anala

I have conservative Christian friends who also will not drink, dance, or play cards. I have others who are also practicing Christians who are some of the biggest party animals I have ever seen.

Originally Posted by Khuzama

... but people are people and people do what they want to do.

I agree with the above statements. People interpret their religion as they see fit- with as many different ways to practice as their are individuals.
People treat their religion like an "a la carte menu" or a buffet, not a a black or white "all or nothing" of ethics and values. As long as they don't harm them selves or others, (ie follow the golden rule), and aren't total hypocrites, I respect their individual choices.