Thread: Undercutting - another perspective

I don't *think* that we've covered this before, but excuse me if I am wrong. Today I spoke to a very nice lady who is a bellydancer - she had no idea what to charge for a gig, and ended up in my opinion charging a very low amount. Is much of the undercutting we see not actually deliberate, but due to ignorance? And if so, how can this be remedied? (nobody posts fee scales on their websites in my area).

Also, culturally in the UK, people would rather tell you how many sexual partners they've had than what they earn.

Hmmm, but sometimes you tell them multiple times, and they still charge next to nothing . . . .

Yes, in my experience, undercutting is generally due to ignorance. Often the undercutter wants to perform, but does not even think of herself as a professional dance yet, so thinks that the solution to the problem is just to charge a dismally low rate, or dance for free. Most of the time they are so eager to perform and get attention, they never even stop to think, "hey, this is a venue where the performer should get paid," or "hey, this is an event where other performers ARE getting paid; maybe I shouldn't jump on stage and dance for free."

This ignorance is heavily correlated with the dancer not being ready to become a performer in the first place in many aspects: technique, musicality, improvisational skills, cultural understanding, etc.

By the time a dancer really has all the skills needed to present herself as a pro dancer, she's also picked up on the need to value herself and charge appropriate fees.

I circulate an article about performing ethics and undercutting to all my students. Also, my university student dance troupe signs a contract agreeing to abide by some basic, well-accepted performing ethics, and these include the agreement not to undercut the private sector market. If they want to be in the performing group, they have to abide by these ethics; if they decide they don't want to abide by the ethics, they are out of the RSO and performing group.

Sedonia

This does happen. I remember just a few years ago when I started getting requests for private gigs I accidentaly undercut fellow dancers because I didn't know what to charge. I still feel like an "undercutter" but no one told me! :Aembarassed:

I based it on restaurant gigs, just charged a little more. I had no idea that people around here multiply restaurant rates by about 3 to get the private party rate. I just figured if 50 bucks gets me out the door, then 50 bucks gets me out the door no matter what venue.

I know better now from establishing friendships with other dancers so that I could ask. Now I do my part by posting rates on my website. FYI it has cut down on my flow of phone calls, but I figure they wouldn't call back once I told them the rate anyway.

Dancers I know in the NW charge between a plate of pasta and a round £100 for a normal 20 min set in a restaurant.
I think the norm (outa London where I have no idea) is £60-£70(20 mins-30mins) but then again there's travelling expenses sometimes asked for.

Oh the variety.... I know dancers who leave the place as soon as they have danced and others who hang around to be "nice to patrons".
I really do know someone who danced for a plate of pasta and I also know someone who got £25 and stayed for 3 hours. She said the family treated her so well....hah!!! I bet they did!
I think you have a problem when the dancer is just so pleased to be dancing she treats it as a night out instead of being professional and calculating!

Given that the community is quite tribal in my area (and I'm not talking about styles here), you either belong to one of the main tribes, or you do not, or you start your own tribe. A contract wouldn't seem likely to work to fix the situation (too many chiefs).

hmmm

Well the crappy restaurant rates in our area - the precident was set by our 'world famous' resident donkeys years ago (and caroline you were there when Emrah explained her recent pricing structure!!) and has not raised at all since except when Lorna started Walima she at least raised that by £10 :-s. So it used to be £35 for 2 HOURS on and off (4-5 dances) and then Lorna raised that to £45. I still curse that original pioneer for setting up the idea of hanging about for 2 hours like a spare part when in other areas people are paid by the set and for only 1-2 sets. Empire's only pays £30 but then I've never had to hang around longer than an hour and usually only dance twice. Its still appaling and sometimes I wonder if I should really be accepting that - but at least they treat you like a human being.

I was gonna say i don't think undercutting is a problem as for e.g. I don't think Caroline and myself have ever been apporached for the same gig . . they are so few and the public consciousness so low that they can only find one of us and then its more they'll either hire you or they won't. But I have lost a few especially hen party gigs to 'someone else' and i can only think due to undercutting as I reply to most of my emails within hours etc etc. As for private parties etc I do not leave the house for less than £100 . . .and I still wonder whether that is too little compared to other areas.

Z

I think it's absolutely due to ignorance, or lack of self-esteem, or eagerness to dance before the dancer is really ready to go 'pro' rather than evil intentions to cut into someone else's business.

Also, and I'm gonna get smacked for saying this, market forces. A lot people who want to hire a dancer for, say, a birthday party really just want a pretty girl in a shiny costume. They don't, frankly, care about dance skill, understanding of rhythm. They don't care whether you're wearing a cheap tourist costume or an Eman. They don't want to pay extra for bells & whistles. They want cheap. It's a natural outgrowth of capitalism for someone to step in & provide that service.

When someone on this board offers to do website design for cheap, no one rushes in to chastise them for undercutting the pros who are trying to earn a living. The student is thinking "I can't do pro quality work, but maybe someone out there will pay me a little to do what I can." And the customer is thinking "here's a student willing to work for cheap, her work's not as great as the pros but I don't need all the bells & whistles, I just want cheap." That's capitalism at work.

Sucks if you're a bellydancer or graphic artist trying to earn a living, but it doesn't make anyone bad or evil.

Lauren, I agree with you on many of the aspects you mention here.

But, I don't think the web design comparison is exactly the same (and please note, I'm not saying it's not undercutting). When people post merchandise or services for cheap on this board, it's usually to pay bills or buy food.

The average newbie undercutter is not desperate for any small bit of income; they are generally on an ego trip that must be fed in the form of attention. That is why most undercutting is ridiculously low (dancing for free or something that may as well be, like $20 per hour or per 4 hours).

Sedonia

Originally Posted by Lauren_

When someone on this board offers to do website design for cheap, no one rushes in to chastise them for undercutting the pros who are trying to earn a living. The student is thinking "I can't do pro quality work, but maybe someone out there will pay me a little to do what I can." And the customer is thinking "here's a student willing to work for cheap, her work's not as great as the pros but I don't need all the bells & whistles, I just want cheap." That's capitalism at work.

One of my best friends is a graphic artist, and every time I have a story about losing business to an undercutter to tell her, she's got 2 or 3 more of her own to respond with. She's just as disgusted with people who hire their neighbor's kid who knows a little HTML to design a website, as we are with folks who hire Suzy Nippletassles for Uncle Bob's 50th birthday party. ,m::

Originally Posted by Lauren_

When someone on this board offers to do website design for cheap, no one rushes in to chastise them for undercutting the pros who are trying to earn a living. The student is thinking "I can't do pro quality work, but maybe someone out there will pay me a little to do what I can." And the customer is thinking "here's a student willing to work for cheap, her work's not as great as the pros but I don't need all the bells & whistles, I just want cheap." That's capitalism at work.

Sucks if you're a bellydancer or graphic artist trying to earn a living, but it doesn't make anyone bad or evil.

I agree 100%. I've said this before on this board - there are many professions where you charge less if you are new because either (a) you don't think you are good enough to charge what the more experienced people charge, or (b) you want to undercut just to get your foot in the door.

I am a lawyer in a startup firm and when my boss started the firm two years ago, she undercutted other lawyers in the industry by 50%, just to get her name out there. Now we are established and actually charge more than the going rate, but there are newbies in our field who come in every date at low, low fees. It sucks, but it happens - that's how the economy works.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

I agree 100%. I've said this before on this board - there are many professions where you charge less if you are new because either (a) you don't think you are good enough to charge what the more experienced people charge, or (b) you want to undercut just to get your foot in the door.

I am a lawyer in a startup firm and when my boss started the firm two years ago, she undercutted other lawyers in the industry by 50%, just to get her name out there. Now we are established and actually charge more than the going rate, but there are newbies in our field who come in every date at low, low fees. It sucks, but it happens - that's how the economy works.

In a way, this can work out OK - newbie comes in charging low fees because they're (a) ignorant or (b) using it as a strategy to build up experience. But it only works in an industry where customers understand that there is value in experience, and are willing to pay more for someone with it. So, newbie might be engaged at a cheap price, but many other customers will willingly pay a higher rate for a more experienced professional. I can imagine this works OK with lawyers.

Our problem is that our average bellydance customer (a) doesn't know that such things as experience and superior quality exist in bellydance or (b) don't value it enough to pay for it. I think the only way we can fight this is to:

- Set a standard by upholding high prices ourselves, and refusing to discount (much!)
- Educating the supply side - informing our fellow pro dancers and enthusiastic students about going rates, business and ethical issues
- Educating the demand side - telling our customers why we're worth the fees we charge, and driving home the message that you get what you pay for.

....and venting on Bhuz when it doesn't work!

[QUOTE=Lauren_;62732]I think it's absolutely due to ignorance, or lack of self-esteem, or eagerness to dance before the dancer is really ready to go 'pro' rather than evil intentions to cut into someone else's business.

Also, and I'm gonna get smacked for saying this, market forces. A lot people who want to hire a dancer for, say, a birthday party really just want a pretty girl in a shiny costume. They don't, frankly, care about dance skill, understanding of rhythm. They don't care whether you're wearing a cheap tourist costume or an Eman.
QUOTE]

Oh ,the kudos of saying "I am a restaurant dancer" is enough for some. Understandable in a way as apart from teaching, what else is there to make it possible to say "I am a professional!". So Ms £25 a gig can go back to class and say...yup I'm a pro. even though she had to stay all night and help with the washing up!

On the opposing side is the dancer (round here) who says "£60 for 20 mins and then I am outa here, mate ".
But who tells the Little Miss Keen what is what if teacher doesn't ? How's she to know when all she wants to do is get the praise of her fellows and to be told you've made it! You've been paid for dancing! After all before this she's had to pay to trot out in her costume at a hafla.

I should think they'd expect you to be in the "trad" bedlah and would pull a face at Eman's pared down lycra...hey girl where's your fringe?(Don't answer that question!")

Interesting topic, just to clarify some things.
where there is more competition there will always be price haggling, in London quite a few places pay poorly with tips making up the rest an incentive to dance more longer etc etc.
This happens less in the regions, but with more and more dancers it becomes a buyers market, same happens in my photography, sometimes it does just come down to price.
You have to be prepared to A stick to your guns and B open to negotiation that's life that's business always keep the long term in your mind during any such negotiations.
From the posts I reckon Scotland needs a kick up the !!!!!! way too low
for here the rates have increased as indeed has the treatment of dancers, most of my girls seem to have regular if not too much work (indeed any NW want to approach me I am looking) .
At the end of the day I have fallen out with clients in both worlds, disagreed and backed down on my costs, in both worlds I get repeat work that is as important as max cash.
just my own thoughts after years of waiting in scubby rooms to dance for on the whole a bunch of nice people with the odd nutter and odd scumball
tracey

Originally Posted by traceylove

in London quite a few places pay poorly with tips making up the rest an incentive to dance more longer etc etc.

tracey

I've heard that in London, Eastern European girls are dancing for no pay - just the tips and the opportunity to be seen by high spending Arabs (in the hope of getting high paid wedding and party work)

How much lower can you get? Oh yes, you could give all your tips to the band or the waiters....

Originally Posted by zafirah

hmmm

Well the crappy restaurant rates in our area - the precident was set by our 'world famous' resident donkeys years ago (and caroline you were there when Emrah explained her recent pricing structure!!) and has not raised at all since except when Lorna started Walima she at least raised that by £10 :-s. So it used to be £35 for 2 HOURS on and off (4-5 dances) and then Lorna raised that to £45. I still curse that original pioneer for setting up the idea of hanging about for 2 hours like a spare part when in other areas people are paid by the set and for only 1-2 sets. Empire's only pays £30 but then I've never had to hang around longer than an hour and usually only dance twice. Its still appaling and sometimes I wonder if I should really be accepting that - but at least they treat you like a human being.

Flippin eck - gotta agree with Tracey here - that's way too low! In fact, if you're dancing in Edinburgh I would expect rates to be about the same as London - they're both capital cities!!!

Just a further comment...personally, I get restaurant work through an agent (Taste of Cairo - traceylove!), which is great. This means that I know that the restaurant is safe to dance in, and that a fee has been negotiated before I dance, and that fee is more-or-less the same (negotiations permitting) as other dancers will be getting. I think this gives restaurant owners the sense that there *are* minimum prices that they can't really go below. It doesn't stop undercutting, but it does go *some* way to protecting the level of payment we get for work. If any NW dancers are reading this, I highly recommend Tracey and Taste of Cairo as a way into restaurant work.

With regard to the other stuff. I used to post my prices on my website (for private parties, etc), but took them down because I felt they were putting off potential customers. Now, however, I am considering putting them on again - as an indication of what the *minimum* I would ask for is.

D

Originally Posted by deelybopper

Flippin eck - gotta agree with Tracey here - that's way too low! In fact, if you're dancing in Edinburgh I would expect rates to be about the same as London - they're both capital cities!!!

Um did you read my post above? I don't really think the Edinburgh girls would want London rates at all!!

To clarify, in central London, undercutting by a new wave of dancers coming in from abroad means that people are now dancing in restaurants for no fee - just tips!

This is of course the natural end point of undercutting.

I used to run a design and PR business and the bane of our lives was people doing design for free - just to get the job and the ensuing implementation work. And like in bellydancing, the clients often didn't know good design from bad so of course they go with the guy who offers something for nothing. When you have staff to pay every month it can be hard to keep going in the face of that sort of competition.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

When someone on this board offers to do website design for cheap, no one rushes in to chastise them for undercutting the pros who are trying to earn a living. The student is thinking "I can't do pro quality work, but maybe someone out there will pay me a little to do what I can." And the customer is thinking "here's a student willing to work for cheap, her work's not as great as the pros but I don't need all the bells & whistles, I just want cheap." That's capitalism at work.

Lauren is absolutely correct. We are all bargain hunters -- just sucks to be on the other side, doesn't it? We want to find the best deal we can on the things we want to purchase with our hard earned cash, but on the flip side we want to be paid the highest fee/salary we can wrangle for the work we do ourselves. We all do it.

So -- when fellow bhuzzer Amity offers cheap websites so she can go to Cairo (for fun? for education? )it's okay, but when Susie Newcomer dances for less or free because she wants/needs an opportunity to dance -- whether it's to hone her skills, make needed extra money, build her dance resume, or just to have fun -- it's not okay? Seems like a double standard to me. (And Amity you just happen to have a viable thread going right now -- personally I hope you get a lot of business by it and get to take that trip to Cairo!)

I'm all for having standard rates. As Daniella says, even with local bar and state bar associations publishing fee standards, you will always see younger/newer attorneys being creative about fees in order to attract the business they need to become established. 5 yrs down the road, if they are successful, they are turning down people who want to empty their wallets to hire these proven attys.

You can say what you will about undercutters -- and I hate it when it happens to me too -- but business isn't any fairer, if as fair, as life itself. A few years back I had intermediate students branch out into teaching calling themselves a belly dance club, just 3 blocks from my classes. Can't beat their prices -- join the club, take as many classes as they deem you qualify to take with a full semester of classes for less than half the rate of my 10 wk beginner class. Just about killed my program the first year.

Was I upset? You bet. Instead of crying in my beer about being undercut, I became very aggressive in finding performance venues, grew my reputation in the area for quality performances and teaching and, most of all, for consistency and reliability. By keeping the lines of communication open we've developed a working relationship and built a friendly and beneficial dance community. Both of the programs have prospered as a result.

Am I still being "undercut?" You bet. But my own program is stronger for what I had to do to counteract the detrimental effect of the undercutting, so in the end it helped, not hurt me.

We are bargain hunters, yes, but how many of us call up Dahlal or Audrena and offer 99 bucks for a Pharaonics, Eman, Abla, Sim, etc. costume, then when told "no, they cost $800" say, "that's crazy, I can get costumes all day long for 99 bucks on ebay!" ?

It might be better to compare a cheaper web designer to, say, the less expensive simple costume ensemble sold by lrose or sharifwear. $100 bucks gets you a nice plain dress or skirt set, but you'll need $800 for the Sim.

Sedonia

Originally Posted by sunshine

Um did you read my post above? I don't really think the Edinburgh girls would want London rates at all!!

Obviously not - sorry about that.
D

Originally Posted by ssipes

We are bargain hunters, yes, but how many of us call up Dahlal or Audrena and offer 99 bucks for a Pharaonics, Eman, Abla, Sim, etc. costume, then when told "no, they cost $800" say, "that's crazy, I can get costumes all day long for 99 bucks on ebay!" ?

Actually they probably do indeed get people saying that...

Originally Posted by ssipes

We are bargain hunters, yes, but how many of us call up Dahlal or Audrena and offer 99 bucks for a Pharaonics, Eman, Abla, Sim, etc. costume, then when told "no, they cost $800" say, "that's crazy, I can get costumes all day long for 99 bucks on ebay!" ?

It might be better to compare a cheaper web designer to, say, the less expensive simple costume ensemble sold by lrose or sharifwear. $100 bucks gets you a nice plain dress or skirt set, but you'll need $800 for the Sim.

Sedonia

I agree 100%. But the typical restaurant owner or party thrower only wants a plain dress or skirt set, and we're mostly trying sell the $800 Sim. That was kind of my point. Most of the people who hire me don't care about my training or my authenticity. This is a problem.

I didn't mean to pick on you, either, Amity. I also hope you raise enough money for your trip, and I think you're providing a useful service for people who can't afford full-scale design service.

But then, is a student dancer willing to work for $20 providing a useful service for people who can't afford a Sim-clad well-trained dancer but just want to have fun at a party? It's a legitimate question...

People can tell the difference, in all respects. For example, imagine you know nothing about bellydance, but you buy an aiport special costume. Will you be pleased that the skirt doesn't meet in the middle, or that it ends high calf, or that the bra isn't very supportive or covering at all. Perhaps you wear it to a fancy dress party, then chuck it in the dressing up box for the children. The only time that quality doesn't matter is when something is dressed up as quality, but in actually not quality - some designer labels (of regular clothes) fall in this category.

Originally Posted by sunshine

I've heard that in London, Eastern European girls are dancing for no pay - just the tips and the opportunity to be seen by high spending Arabs (in the hope of getting high paid wedding and party work)

How much lower can you get? Oh yes, you could give all your tips to the band or the waiters....

That sounds like it might also be part of an older profession than belly-dancing?,f::

[QUOTE=Lauren_;63801]I agree 100%. But the typical restaurant owner or party thrower only wants a plain dress or skirt set, and we're mostly trying sell the $800 Sim. That was kind of my point. Most of the people who hire me don't care about my training or my authenticity. This is a problem.

Well no, I think that the typical restaurant owner or party organizer does care about your skill. They may not care as much about the some of the skills that we as dancers esteem. But I would say they definitely care about things like:
reasonably good dancing (it doesn't take as much to impress a typical gp audience with your ability, but they still want to be impressed!) professional attitude and presentation, (nice well fitted costume in good condition) and the ability to entertain, work a crowd and hold the audiences attention.

Nobody wants the entertainment at their event to be ignored after the first few minutes, to look like she doesn't know what she's doing, or make people uncomfortable. So while a gp audience may not care about your training and authenticity, they do care about your skills and presentation as a professional entertainer.

Good point, Mariyah, and very well-said. Important stuff to remember when negotiating, too, from the client's point of view.

Hope I'm not coming off as defending the undercutters -- I believe that dancers who aren't ready, aren't experienced at entertaining audiences, aren't professionally costumed etc. hurt our whole industry and drive down the demand.

Originally Posted by deelybopper

Flippin eck - gotta agree with Tracey here - that's way too low! In fact, if you're dancing in Edinburgh I would expect rates to be about the same as London - they're both capital cities!!!

Just a further comment...personally, I get restaurant work through an agent (Taste of Cairo - traceylove!), which is great. This means that I know that the restaurant is safe to dance in, and that a fee has been negotiated before I dance, and that fee is more-or-less the same (negotiations permitting) as other dancers will be getting. I think this gives restaurant owners the sense that there *are* minimum prices that they can't really go below. It doesn't stop undercutting, but it does go *some* way to protecting the level of payment we get for work. If any NW dancers are reading this, I highly recommend Tracey and Taste of Cairo as a way into restaurant work.

D

Well sadly the dancers who would be in a position to do such things up here aren't so altruistic.

I don't really do restuarants anymore . . .. .to much hassle for too little money . .i was just stating what the rates here are. I do occasionally fill in at the cheap-est paying one as is a nice friendly family place and i can be in and out within 30 min sometimes.

and can i just point out again this whole crap situation in Edinburgh was set up by ONE certain teacher many years ago, who i have got flamed for criticising before and then perpetuated by yet another well known teacher who was in a position to change it.

I'm outta here soon anyway. . . .sadly it might be to London :( . . i may as well just give up bothering now . .

Z

London, how exiting ! You will be near Khaled. Actually I hate you ;-)

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

London, how exiting ! You will be near Khaled. Actually I hate you ;-)

Um . .i said 'might' . . .am desperately hoping one of our options in the north will magically work out and put my bf off the job offer in central london . .

Z