Thread: Norma...Kina? On Raising Rates

I hear what you're saying, Lucinia.

I agree that many, many students are in the positions cited by you and by tahiradancer and samira shuruk: their instructors not only refuse to provide a performance venue, they even refuse to provide information about venues appropriate for student dances.

Although, like Kina, I don't believe that an individual instructor must create opportunities to perform for her students, I think teachers who purposely withhold information should be shot. Did I say that?

Deborah

I absolutely agree with you, mish-mish, on situations like that where the dancer does have good dance technique and experience but might lack the confidence necessary to state her price and stick with it plus have the handicap of not knowing what to charge in the first place! Oy! It's really not very fair to put that burden, as well as the stigma of "undercutter," on those folks.

I don't understand, really, all the secrecy on what we earn at the various restaurants or charge for private gigs! I know of a few professional folks who don't like to say how much they earn/charge because they really are undercutting the market price in their area . . .

I've come across a few dancers in my area who price themselves too low (not truly undercutting to get work, but just "not in the know") and I'm thrilled to be able to tell them they can get $50 more for the same work! Heck, let's spread the wealth!

Deborah

I'm sorry, Deborah, but I have to disagree -- if they are undercharging, and thereby cutting another dancer out of making a fair wage, they are, in fact, undercutting. I have moved to several new cities over the years and I ALWAYS make it a point to ask around for local pricing before I start taking gigs. It's not hard to do. And while some dancers won't share their pricing information, most will at least give you a general ballpark of what the pay is for restaurants and parties.

As for the dancers who don't have the confidence to ask for a what their worth, well, if you don't have the balls to be a professional then you shouldn't be taking professional work. I know that might sound harsh but I think in a large way these are the dancers who are holding us all back from respect and greater acceptance from the GP. If we don't respect ourselves and our community, then why should the GP??

I'm with Aazura on this one.
In order to be a professional you should be able to get and maintain gigs at or above the going rate and you should be abiding by regional rates and standards. It's NOT difficult to find out a general range of going rates for both public venues and private parties (ask online, ask local dancers, ask teachers etc). It's a part of good professionalism and ethics.
If you purposefully undercharge or if you undercharge due to lack of knowledge (lack of professionalism) or lack of confidence (if you doubt you should be out there then why are you out there)- it all adds up to the same thing- undercutting: undervaluing yourself and the art and doing a disservice to the dance community and in a roundabout way the GP. You will be teaching them a lower value of the dance.

Well, it's pretty hard to call up your teacher or local dancers and say, "Hey, I wonder what you charge" without creating a bit of consternation. If you respect your teacher, you might feel odd asking that, because it's kind of like asking your friends what they earn.


While I agree in full disclosure--it's hard to be the one to ask if others don't put it out on rate sheets or on their websites. In Sacramento, if we do that, then a certain teacher will probably instate some kind of "My dancers will dance for hummus and tips" policy!

I think professional dancers with websites should post their rates so that newbies like me can do an informal survey before we accept gigs or build our own websites. Gigs, for me have totally come up quickly--like the restaurant I danced at referred me and then I get a call--and then I'm STUCK wondering what to charge. I know I know...I'm supposed to say, "Let me call you back." But as a professional, shouldn't I KNOW what I charge? Yes. But how the heck do I quickly find out that info?

It's hard to hold new professionals responsible for knowing info that is often purposely hidden from them.

An ethical teacher who is mentoring a blossoming professional performer will share appropriate rate information.
...and remember- you don't have to ask "what do YOU charge?"
Make it impersonal - "I don't want to undercut so..."
"...what should I charge?"
"....what are venues paying?"
"...what should I charge private parties?"
"...what do I do if they want multiple sets?"
"...and how long are those sets supposed to be?"
these are all basic knowledge to being a professional dancer and fielding phone calls/negotiating gigs. A responsible teacher will help those she mentors by guiding them with this sort of info and more.

From what I understand you already HAVE a Sacramento teacher sending out her newbie students for pennies- so that's not going to get worse. The more you have high quality professionals charging professional rates, the more people will see "you get what you pay for."

Anyone care to send me Sacramento rates for my page?
http://www.samirashuruk.com/standard...uidelines.html

I hope you are proud of me. I do some non-dance related voluntary work for a community group in town. One day, they were doing some movement related stuff, and I made a few constructive comments. Later on a member of the group asked if I would do a workshop "for women" regarding bellydancing and confidence. I said, it sounded interesting, but "what women?" was she talking about. "oh, just anyone" she said - then it turned out she wanted me to do it on a voluntary basis, and put posters up around town. You know, even after all this time, it still takes me by surprise. I explained that I'm trying to make a living from my dance work, and that was the end of that.

Okay, I take back my referenced post. but

It is possible to get pricing information and, as Samira posted, "(i)n order to be a professional you should be able to get and maintain gigs at or above the going rate and you should be abiding by regional rates and standards."

Non-dancer sources include entertainment agencies that hire out BDers. I've called a few of those in my day, to check it out . . . <smacks self on forehead> I guess folks wanting to go pro should have enough experience/knowledge to know these agencies exist.

Not only that, as Aazura posted, "(a)s for the dancers who don't have the confidence to ask for what their worth, well, if you don't have the balls to be a professional then you shouldn't be taking professional work. I know that might sound harsh . . ."

It does sound harsh, Aazura, but it is the truth, and, sometimes, truth is hard to hear. (I sometimes come across as hardnosed with these types of issues, but I really am a sweetheart. . . . really! )

The reason I come across as a hard-nose is because, well, I kinda am, on this issue. Samira once again describes my thoughts on this very well: "undervaluing yourself and the art [is] doing a disservice to the dance community and in a roundabout way the GP. You will be teaching them a lower value of the dance."

Remember, in these posts we're not talking hobbyist dancer who mostly dances at festivals and haflas (these folks are often really great dancers who just don't want to do the pro thing on a regular basis); we're talking folks who put themselves out there, on a regular basis, to get work, whether at restaurants or for private events and are either new to the pro circuit or are new in town. (Hobbyist dancers who are of professional calibre need to charge the "correct" amount when they take the occasional gig, too, of course.)

I also am in complete agreement with Samira on this post (italics mine):

"An ethical teacher who is mentoring a blossoming professional performer will share appropriate rate information. ...and remember- you don't have to ask "what do YOU charge?"
Make it impersonal - "I don't want to undercut so..."
"...what should I charge?"
"....what are venues paying?"
"...what should I charge private parties?"
"...what do I do if they want multiple sets?"
"...and how long are those sets supposed to be?"
these are all basic knowledge to being a professional dancer and fielding phone calls/negotiating gigs. A responsible teacher will help those she mentors by guiding them with this sort of info and more.
. . . The more you have high quality professionals charging professional rates, the more people will see "you get what you pay for." "

Thanks, everybody, for not allowing me to slide into nicey-nice mode . . .

Deborah

I am proud of you. Kudos!

Deborah

Wow, I have been gone from this subject too long!

WE've have the same discussion here in our area about 'price fixing'. It's not price fixing if some peopel are charging different rates. We want to up the price to $50 as a base. Notice the word. BASE. Some dancers charge more and sadly alot of dancers charge less.

We recently lost a gig that was paying $75 a show to someone who was charging less. Now what I was told by the booker was that they were doing 2 shows for $75 but the person who took the gig claims that they are getting $50 per show.

Having 7 years of experience dealing with this troupe, I know they have no issues doing gigs for $37.50 a show. Hence, $75 a night. Or multiple dancers for the same fee. I know this for fact because I've been called by restaurants wanting them out and someone new in but they dont' want to pay my fees or the fees of dancers I work with which is $50. Good, get what you pay for.

I agree that is up to the individual dancer and not only is up to them but it's their RESPONSBILITY to find out what others charge before they go out. Don't ask just your instructor. Ask around. We meet TONS of peopel through Tribe, Bhuz and workshops to NOT have friends outside of our own cliches.

If someone feels they are up to snuff then THEY need to go out and find their own path and their own rates that will be acceptable in their area. If you undercut, be expected to be shunned by professionals. I'm a professional hobbyist dancer (I have a day job) but nothign steams my muffins more than losing a gig to some baby or uneducated dancer going out there taking gigs for peanuts.
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There are professionals in my area who undrercut or undervalue themsleves. One particular client found me afer calling the place I currently dance at. When she asked my rate she exclaimed that is 4x the amount of the first dancer we had the first hafla and 3x the amount of the one she refered to us for the second hafla. SHE said well, you get wht you pay for, can we book you every month? Thank goodness I did not have to be the one to say this. It certainly puts you in a strange place when talking to clients and they get $50 for their first quote then $150 then $200. HOw do you explain that to a client? The resources are there. USE EM! In some cases undercutting can cause you to loose a gig!

Samira, here is some info on Sac rates: http://www.sacramentobellydance.com/...60126212535844

quote:Originally posted by samira shuruk

Anyone care to send me Sacramento rates for my page?
http://www.samirashuruk.com/standard...uidelines.html



I don't think this is the full scope, though, unfortunately. I'm probably not the best person to comment because I don't live there anymore & only dance there on very rare occassions when visiting family. But to my knowledge, there are different rates for different venues. And the range sounds fairly wide. Some venues belong to the "undercutting bellybunnies" described in another thread. There is another place I know of - not associated with the bellybunnies - that pays $35 for one show. Sounds like there are the restaurants Mish Mish mentioned in the $20-40 range. And then there are the rates you see posted on the link above. So quite a discrepancy. I think I will be contacting some folks I know to see what they think about the higher rates quoted in the article...

The info on that link is not what many places pay, unfortunately. That's why I don't currently have a dance gig.

I just updated my site. Thanks for the info.
I prefer to post rates that reflect professional standards, and I feel the article Joanneraks pointed out does just that. :)
There are always going to be places that pay poorly.

Samira, it's up to you of course, but you might want to put something like $35 - 75 for one set. This would still exclude the undercutting rates from your info, but would include all of the other decent establishments. Unfortunately, it seems there is just a big range in the area. The party prices quoted in the article seemed about right. I'm still waiting to hear back from a friend of mine who lives there about all of this, and I'll post any other info that I come up with.

Well, you can post what you wish we got paid here, but my experience is different--and I didn't undercut, that is what I was offered. $40 per set. Considering that I knew that many restaurants paid $20 - $25 per set, I figured we weren't doing too badly with $40. Maybe it's gotten better in the last 6-8 months. It wasn't just the pay issue--it was also the last minute, "Oh we're too slow, we don't need you" crap that came up several times. I knew that the places just weren't really in a position to pay a dancer and they didn't seem to respect my time, so I stopped dancing there.

Thanks for the specifics Mish Mish. So really, should we say $20-75 for one set in Sacramento??? When I danced there in 2003 (last time I performed on a regular basis) the standard for the whole entire town was $25 for 2 sets. So at least it has improved a bit.

eta: I think I've confused myself with all of the different rates going on. Mish Mish, maybe we should talk with some of our friends that dance at the non-"J" establishments, compare notes with what we know about the places we've danced, and come up with some firmer numbers. I'm not sure what places like Maalouf's are paying, for example...

Samira - I'd love to be able to say all the pro dancers in Sac get a minimum of $75 for one set, but it simply isn't true. There are a lot of pros in the area that are making much less than that, from the best of my knowledge at this point. If that were true, we'd be doing better than the Bay area or LA, according to your site. Maybe Mish Mish and I can do some digging and come up with some more concrete info for you. I think this goes back to the discussion that a handful are able to negotiate a higher wage, but that wouldn't accurately reflect the normal going rate in the area. There should be a basic number that all dancers would not ethically go below. But I'm afraid the number quoted in the article is not correct, at least at this point. I wish we all made more, it certainly is deserved! Maybe discussing it locally will prompt change.

This is why I continually post this info on Craigslist and link it in my ads and on my site. It will also be part of my press kit if I ever get one together!

I will gladly add the range of rates next time I update my site (within a couple days). Seeing as I'm not there, it's hard for me to tell what's going on and I appreciate that you ladies help me have the right facts to present.
It's also a difficult balance- I want to present realistic rates- but don't want to present rates so low that undercutters justify their actions.