Thread: Norma...Kina? On Raising Rates

A challenge ladies and gentlemen.

Background: a few days ago there were calls far and wide across our fair metropolis (I know, I know, it ain't Gotham City, but bear with me) for a dancer to teach an hour class and perform a set for about $75.

After much phone calling, emailing etc, someone was found.

Inspired by this, I crossposted to several local groups and email lists and a debate has ensued (for reference: http://tinyurl.com/yrm4dy )

Things seem to be moving apace, however, there is discussion at this time of price fixing and the legalities of such. I'm stumped and don't quite know how to repsond to this. Any ideas?

I don't know who called setting a standard wage as price fixing. We are talking about a wages not manipulating the market. When a union negotiates a wage increase it is not seen as price fixing. When long haul independent truckers got together and asked for better wages they were not seen as price fixing. It makes me angry that someone would use that term. I have to ask myself why this person is worried about earning a set minimum wage.

Hi Kina,

I have considered posting my fees but I have been working for so long it would not benefit me in the end because my negotiating skills have made it possible to get even more then what my fees are.This is is true for both private shows and restaurant work. I think this is one of the marks of being a full-time pro. My time is valuable and I think everyone no matter their level should price themselves in the same way if they can. I can help with the price list I have danced at everone of those places listed but you would have to keep in mind that I may or may not have re-negotiated a fee for myself and when I do this I am asked to keep it a secret... See now I have to take it back because if someone says Rose said she gets paid $000, I loose my gig. This is Another reason it is so hard for all of us to get a clue on what is a good rate and what is poor. I was just helping someone out whith this the other day. My advice is to Do what they love to do and negotiate step 1. get on your high horse Have a lot of self esteem, your suposed to believe you are worth the money, too many dancers undervalue themselves for whatever reason but the big problem is once you set your fee it is not likely to change for the better and you could be dancing there for years step 2. ride your high horse, tell them how great you are how you will draw a crowd or what ever you do that makes you special. Tell them what you can do where you have or currently dance and have someone who knows the owner vouch for you. step 3 negotiate they should announce the price first.
You should have a max and min $ in your head that you would dance for. If they say a low number just politely say oh really, that is not what I expected. (They really will not be ready for this as most of us just are so excited to be excepted) Be realistict if the place seats only 50 people and on a busy day there are 33 people there, you might not want to ask for $100 per show maybe make a deal like if they invest in you at $50 per show and their place has a new average of 50 people put there after hiring you that is only two dollars per person per show if they up your rate to $100 per show. They actually like negotiating, so go for it! We don't realize that their starting with the lowest number is part of the negotiating game, you just have to say How about $000. if you end up getting $5 more you did great! So I guess I can still help with the prices people get at all the restaraunts /clubs by listing their starting figure. At least then you can be prepared when you go asking for a job. I know many Americans don't like negotiating. that is fine too because even if you take a job at the lowest rate you get a place to advertise yourself, get more parties, students and you are educating by being an example of Oriental Dance!
Kina,
You can copy this post for your tribe if you want. I will send you a list of $ that you can also post. Or maybe I should join again I always goof up things like that.

~Rose

She's playing devil's advocate. And believe me, when this topic has come up before, i've heard that and also how we should sympathise with the struggling restaurant owners who are trying to keep this alive.


It's a valid concern, I just want to be able to answer in a cogent manner, and I appreciate where her thinking is coming from.

I read through the tribe posts. I'd like to hear from Zaheea and Zari, because I would consider them both high end dancers and both have posted their rates in an attempt to improve pay situation in the Bay Area and Sacramento areas (both are notorious for low pay).

As a relative newbie to professional dance gigs (about a year)--it is really hard to know how to price shows appropriately and I am all for disclosure. If a dancer like Zaheea charges $250 for a 10 minute show and then I charge $75, that's not good. She is far more experienced and puts on a better show than I could--so I don't think I should charge what she does, but I shouldn't charge a lot less either. By charging a lot less, it encourages people to hire cheap cheap dancers over good ones. If I do it for $75 and then someone else will do it for $50 and then someone else will dance for dinner we get what we currently have in Sacramento--a town over-run by cheap student dancers. The upside is that people are easily impressed in this town, but I don't think that's something to brag about!

I'm for full price disclosure. It's the only way to know what ballpark we should be in price-wise.

Khaled's venues $40-$50 +tips
Belly Dance shows at the Clarion $50+tips
Byblos $75-$ per show Cafe Lebanon $40-$50-$60 + tips The Belly Dance Connection at Marco Polo$40-$50+ tips Pintu's Indian Palace $100 per show+Tips
note I danced at all of these places at some piont but don't dance at 90% of them anymore and so I am not possitive about theses being current prices. and dancer run venues pay the best they can often not making any money to run the show and yet the dancer makes more then what a restaurant will pay! Please Don't quote me it would likely make trouble for me.

Here is Sacramento it seems like people want to pay about $20-$40 a set for restaurants.

quote:Originally posted by kina

She's playing devil's advocate. And believe me, when this topic has come up before, i've heard that and also how we should sympathise with the struggling restaurant owners who are trying to keep this alive.


It's a valid concern, I just want to be able to answer in a cogent manner, and I appreciate where her thinking is coming from.


I understand.

As far as poor restaurant owners go, See what car they are driving and what kind of car their spouse is driving that will tell you if they are indeed poor.

If they can't afford to pay a dancer a fair wage, they shouldn't have a dancer. If their business is bad a dancer isn't going to fix that.

Originally Posted by testadmin

If they can't afford to pay a dancer a fair wage, they shouldn't have a dancer. If their business is bad a dancer isn't going to fix that.

excellent point! I agree.

thank you all for taking the time to answer this. The owner of a informational type email list gave me permission to use it to post restaurant prices. I think that people have an idea that it makes sense, but trying to get past the "nobody will hire me and I'll never dance!" fear that they have is difficult.

Then again, someone emailed me to tell that they thought that my rates were too high, because the had brought high end famous dancers here for workshops and teh bellydance community is not rich.

Kina, your rates are not high. I think they are pretty standard for us "working pros" in the area. True, the BD community is not rich, but you're not charging the BD community to dance -- you're changing the GP.
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If we don't value our time, none of our customers will either. Everyone wants a bargain, but nobody wants a bad dancer. I think the more upfront we are about our rates, the better. It's harder to manipulate dancers if they work together to come up with a "bottom line" price for typical gigs--grams, restaurant sets, parties, etc.

Hi, I saw my name mentioned and thought I would post.

Basically, my thoughts are poretty much as this blog entry written a few years ago. Although I have since come to believe that the new dancers are only half the problem. The other half is dancers who are actually polished and accomplished...but do not want the responsibility of acting like business women.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
blog entry, 2003 - just after I moved to SF
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There are people I see who are true artists, good enough to just do dance for a living. But they can't -- because it's not economically feasible. I see even more people who have the potential to be true artists but never will -- because it's not economically feasible. Not like "I can't afford a BMW" unfeasible.....more like "I can't make rent" unfeasible.

Everyone I have talked to attributes this situation to the fact that students will dance for free, thereby putting their own teachers in the poorhouse. It breaks my heart to see the dancing treated this way. And the saddest part is that a lot of beginners don't even realize they are being had. They just think "gee I'd like to perform" -- fair enough. Then they think "but I'm not that good yet" -- and they find out what the pros are being paid, and perform some arcane calculation (usually cutting it in half) to figure out how much to charge.

Where are the teachers of these people? Why don't they clue them in? I would never let a student of mine be exploited like that. And I would never cut my own throat business-wise either.

First off, cutting the pro rate in half because you are "not that good" - I think people do this to take pressure off themselves. This is a fallacy if you think about it. Does the restaurant owner give everyone half-off dinner becuase they're only getting a student show? Does a nightclub waive the cover charge because its just little old you?

No Way!!!

So the audience expectations are just as high either way. As for the owners they just smile to the bank, and when the student does get better and feel confident chartging what used to be the full rate, you can bet that the venue will tell you to take a hike then hire the next sucker.

Many times venues come up with song A: "we cannot afford much now but will pay more later"

Belly dance places do NOT give raises. It's possible to dance at the same place to 5 years 10 years or more and at the end of that time be making $20 more than when you started out a decade ago. IF you are lucky. IF they are still in business which is enough of a crapshoot in itself. Most restaurants go out of business their first year.

What will happen instead is that if the place survives and prospers the owner will decide to add improvements and luxury items: cloth tablecloths, new renovations, etc. You the dancer are not a luxury item now. You are a discount item, having put your own self in that category to the client. More often than not, the owners decide to treat themselves to that other dancer who refused to drop her price. In their mind the fact that they are now upgrading the dancer is an egoboost, and a testiment to their success. In the real world, we call this the "trophy wife" effect.

Lest it sound like I just love to complain, I'll say here that I actually know who holds the solution. It's a secret but hey, we're all friends here so I'll share...
...

. . .

. . . .

...

....

(whispers) It's the new dancers.
Yeah, you -- Miss "I'm Not that Good Yet" -- are you listening? I'm calling you! Take that low self esteem and kick it in the ear!

What are some of the things that drew you to belly dance in the first place? Was it the beauty of the movement? The exotic music? The prospect of transforming yourself into a long-ago queen and goddess? Or was it perchance the prospect of spending your best years living at the poverty line and your old age living in a tiny room with no savings to draw on? think it over now y'all hear? ;-)

Here a thing the "new" dancers don't always realize: just like any job, you will never again have the same clout once you are familiar to your boss. You can ususally make MORE demands when you are the new kid on the block. Any body who spends money on an expense WANTS to believe they are getting their money's worth. If we all just believed in ourselves and the value of our art...sigh. who knows if anybody even looks at this journal. but I feel better now that I've vented. stay tuned for more amusing rants! it only gets funner from here....

great post, zari. Thanks for that--especially the part about new dancers who don't price themselves low because they are trying to undercut--it's because they don't think they're good enough to charge more. However, the end result is lower pay for everyone.

Excellent point. We do tend to blame the student dancers but there is a contingency of skilled hobbyists who don't have the business savvy (or desire) to negotiate fair wages.

Thanks for your post, Zari, as a dancer who is just starting to get herself out there I will sincerely take your words to heart!

There's a Boston-area venue that just opened that is asking for dancers to perform for free while the business become established, with promise of payment later. Yeah, I bet their food suppliers are giving them the food for free while they get established too... Maybe they mean it sincerely, but if they can't afford dancers right now, they just can't afford dancers right now.

Badriya

I know about that venue, claims "everyone" is donating their time.

Another pitfall to look out for:
"We consider you part of our family."
(a/k/a) You take care of us, and we take care of you.

One of my friends said once that when she hears "We are like family" it always just means "We don't want to pay you". I laughed when she said that. Then I thought about it and got a headache.

My response would be. If were family then were Italian family who pays for good dancers see they are living well. Yes I'm Italian

Don't know this venue... Kina, perhaps you can enlighten me (warn me) later?

How about this thought (one I know many of you share):

"New" dancers who don't think they're good enough to demand a respectable wage: why are they working in a professional environment? Of course "just getting out there" dancers will not be the dancers they will be in 5 years . . . and that's okay; not only is it okay, growth is what we all want!

But if one's skills are not what they should be, then shouldn't one be honing those skills at haflas, festivals, student nights, private/group training in performance skills and/or performing with a mentor? All of these things give a dancer experience, which is, I think, what many new dancers think makes them less valuable and, therefore, not "worth the full price."

The solution? Be worth the full price! Get lots of experience dancing in as many settings as you can, both on stage (big and small) and in intimate surroundings where the dancer is really up close and personal with the audience! Go for it! It's worth it! And it'll make you worth full price!



Deborah

will do

kina

Oooh, kina - warn me too!

I agree Deborah, but some people ARE good enough, but they don't know what to charge and lack self confidence and STILL undercut.

Deborah you make sense but I'm going to throw it back.
I know several instructors who do not provide a venue for their students. Thus the student who wants to perform falls into i not that good trap. If your an Instructor you have the responsibilty to provide a venue for your students to practice in.

No, actually, it's not. It's up the dance community to create venues, not the individual instructors. It's also the student's responsibility to find out when and where they can perform and to sign up, even if their instructor doesn't do that for them. Sorry.

Kina - i am going to disagree with you a little. I have had a couple instructors who not only don't participate in community activities, but actively discourage their students from being involved. If you as a student don't know where it get information, you don't know where it get information.

while i don't believe that a teacher needs to provide the exact event, I do think that the instructor should at least provide a listing of organizations which have events within the community.

tahiradancer, I think that was true before the internet, but not anymore. as you say, some won't provide the information so then it's up to the student. information is easily available on line, a simple search will turn up loads of stuff.

we can disagree, I don't mind

We have those exclusionary teachers/schools in the Baltimore and DC areas as well. At least one of them very strongly discourages any community activity or even seeking knowledge outside their "realm". In one school students are told (or overhear conveniently held conversations between teachers) slander about other teachers and professionals in the area.
I think both the unethical/unprofessional teacher (or school) AND the student(s) getting out there unprepared both hold responsibility.

The information is out there. And most of it is pretty easy to find. Part of the problem is that the people who need it most are the people who will avoid it. Right now in Baltimore we have a problem with a teacher undercutting like crazy and lying about it. Frustrating as all get out.