Thread: what is considered "fair" pay?

Hey yall,
I've been belly dancing for 5 years now (I've been studying other forms of dance mostly ballet, for my enterer life though. I'm actually a dance minor at school). I'm just starting to get myself out there to get gigs (which isn't easy to do in Amish country) and was wondering what is considered fair pay?
I know that I'm not going to be able charge as much where i live as someone who lives in a larger city.
for example I just got a gig that pays $60 for four 20min sets one night a week, which seems a little low to me (not that I am going to complain about it, getting paid for doing what i love is always a good thing). I don't know, maybe my expectations are just too high.
What is considered to be 'fair' pay?

It varies by gig type (a weekly restaurant set vs. a one off private party), and the area you live in. Are the other professional dancers in your area with whom you can inquire as to what the going rate is?

If you're out there on your own, Samira's site lists the going rates for many areas. If your community's not on there, I'd pick one that's similar in size and demographic and use that. Belly Dancer Rates

$60 for 4 20-minute sets seems *very* low to me, even for a regular weekly gig. Around here I hear the restaurant rate is $50 for 2 15-minute sets, and I personally have little interest in those gigs. It's great that you want to get paid to do what you love (as a full time teacher and performer I get that), but it's very important that you don't undercut, or give the impression that BD is cheapo discount entertainment.

Yes, VERY low. That's only $15 per 20 minute set, not to mention the time you'll spend waiting around in between sets. Don't sell yourself short! Sometimes we have to remind ourselves what goes into our rates - Behind the Rates - Why Belly Dancers Charge What They Do by Shems

What does your dance teacher/mentor recommend?

Originally Posted by laura 2

$60 for 4 20-minute sets seems *very* low to me, even for a regular weekly gig.

Thanks! I thought it seemed low. I'm just going to go with it for now though. Like I said, I live in Amish country so there isn't a high demand for belly dancers, in fact this restaurant is the only one I know of that hires dancers thats less than 45 min from where I live.
I'm doing it mostly for the experience anyway.
Thanks!

In our area, the restaurant wages (as set by our Guild) is $60/1 set, $75/2 sets, $90/3 sets- per night, plus tips.

According to much of what I see on Bhuz, we're low. So the price you've quoted is very low.

Ask your teacher, and other dancers in the area. Not everyone wants to share their prices, but the majority of dancers want to keep rates at least similar, so they're not getting undercut.

From a business point of view, what you are being paid is barely going to cover your expenses, unless you never buy new props, new music or new costuming.

Try to figure out how much business is being drawn because of your dancing. That is what many restaurants are interested in; they are not patrons of the arts. If the place is packed on the nights you are dancing and not packed when you are not, negotiate up. If the owner claims that they aren't getting more guests, just guests who are switching the evenings they come in, then you've got a customer who is never going to raise your rates and likely to dump you when someone new comes in and offers to dance for $10/set plus tips.

Please don't think in these terms. Either you are qualified to present yourself as a professional entertainer who deserves professional compensation, or you aren't. There isn't a dancer here who doesn't understand what you are saying. Every beginning performer is tempted to lowball their price to get more gigs. It seems sensible to think you will charge a little now and then up the price sometime in the future when you're "better," but what you are doing is convincing customers that belly dancers are never worth very much as entertainers. Don't kid yourself. This same manager might complain, but he'd probably pay at least twice what he's offering you for a clown or a magician at his kid's birthday party.

No, you don't deserve the salary that Dina commands for a gig. No, a dancer in the middle of nowhere doesn't make the same money as one in Washington, DC, New York, or LA. No, you still don't deserve to work for a fraction of what other party entertainers in your area earn. Go to GigMasters and look at the rates for celebrity impersonators, balloon artists, and singing telegrams in your area, and see if you still think you are only worth $0.75 per minute of performance time, with no allowance for travel or waiting around.

Originally Posted by sahaga89

Thanks! I thought it seemed low. I'm just going to go with it for now though. Like I said, I live in Amish country so there isn't a high demand for belly dancers, in fact this restaurant is the only one I know of that hires dancers thats less than 45 min from where I live.
I'm doing it mostly for the experience anyway.
Thanks!

Sahaga, I'm really not trying to rip on you, but what you said above PERFECTLY epitomizes WHY rates are so low. It is because there is always a relatively inexperienced dancer willing to work for anything because they love to dance and need experience.

Here is the sad reality though: Once you accept a particular rate, it is very very difficult to get those same venue owners, or even new ones that open up, to increase the rate. Also, the day will come when you consider yourself the experienced dancer who deserves more, but you won't get it because 1) you've set the precedent for the rate and 2) there will be another dancer hanging around who (guess what) loves to dance and just needs the experience. Except the next dancer may be willing to dance for $50 instead of $60, or just for tips, etc.

What I tell my students who want to start performing for money (and it's what I was told when I started accepting paid gigs and wrongly thought I should charge less than dancers with more experience):

You're either worth the going rate, or you're not. If you're not, then you shouldn't be promoting yourself as a professional and you should NOT be performing in professional circumstances. If you are accepting money for your dancing, then you are acting as a professional, and should be paid accordingly.

It sounds harsh, but it's the truth: You're either good enough to be paid well, or you're not good enough to be paid at all.

....

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Go to GigMasters and look at the rates for celebrity impersonators, balloon artists, and singing telegrams in your area, and see if you still think you are only worth $0.75 per minute of performance time, with no allowance for travel or waiting around.

YES. Everybody should try this exercise, just for ha-ha's. I did this a few months ago. My findings were both eye-opening and depressing

If you live where I think you live (Amish country ref plus being from PA clued me in), I would ask Lotus Niraja about what people charge in the area. I *think* she lives in York (where I grew up) and would have a good grasp of the market there.

I can see that being in Amish country is a bit of a different story in terms of how much money there is in it than in D.C. or NYC - $75 or more per set is probably not gonna happen. HOWEVER, maybe asking here first for advice on how to make the best of the circumstances may have been a better idea. Offering four sets a night seems like a lot, and I suspect that the restaurant may have asked for that somewhat in error - a Greek restaurant in Amish country won't have four seatings a night, and if I go for dinner, I don't want to see the same (I assume fairly novice at the chosen style, reasoning from your other posting) dancer do more than one 20-minute set. I hope that one of the Bhuz veterans will be able to share experiences on how to remedy this situation.

Slightly off topic, but why don't most belly dancers just post their standard rates on their web pages? Then it wouldn't be a big mystery what the going rate is.

Originally Posted by Zamira

Slightly off topic, but why don't most belly dancers just post their standard rates on their web pages? Then it wouldn't be a big mystery what the going rate is.

Many of us do. In fact someone here on Bhuz (anyone remember who?) gave us all permission to use her format for our rates pages. My version is here: Belly Dance by Lauren and the Hips Afire Bellydancers

Restaurant rates aren't listed though. My restaurant rate starts at $50/set.

Originally Posted by dollydaydream

Hi Sahaga, I agree with other comments here about it being low, but you are stressing that you live in Amish Country, and like you say there's no high demand for belly dancers so I could imagine that the restaurants wouldn't pay dancers as much as they do in big cities? Maybe you just can't compare big cities to small towns? I don't know really, it's just another perspective. Do you loose out on an experience to dance or go for it?

see, I just don't agree with that- I live in a land of many dancers, little (oh, so very little!) opportunity- but you have someone willing to pay $60 for a dancer. Now you know their budget, but even for a region with little opportunity, I'd say that'd buy them *1* performance for the night. Wow them, give them an incredible performance that will convince them that you're worth that, but don't do it for less- $15 a set wouldn't cover gas money! This is not a 9-5 job where you accomplish everything at the office during 'work' time, or even spend moe time at work than in the car. I know it's hard to back out on an already made deal, but maybe you can present that as a special, teaser rate so they can see what an asset you would be for their business, and the standard rate is...?
are there other dancers in your area at all? are they dancing for these rates?

....

Okay, so now everyone has pointed out what is wrong with the OP's pricing, and now we have some solutions:

Lara L suggested a counter offer of $60 for one set. You could add a discounted second set to this, for example $60 for one set, $80 for two (this would bring you more in line with current going rates in small town midwest areas).

I totally agree that the restaurant either is naive by wanting 4 sets for one night, or they are doing a really rocking business late into the night, in which case they can afford to pay more.

An additional suggestion:

If the restaurant really can't afford to pay you decently for a regular gig, suggest occasional special events, for example a night where dinner and a dance show have a set price that has a cover charge built in that becomes your split.

Basically, I think if the restaurant can't afford live entertainment, or doesn't value it enough to pay for it, they shouldn't have live entertainment.

Four years ago, before the recession kicked in, dancers were being advised by local pros to charge a minimum of $25/ set. This is in Louisville, a metro area of one million people. I know for a fact that established dancers were performing for $50/ night plus tips. So I am not really surprised to hear about $60/night out in Amish country.

If I were the OP, I'd be sensitive to the financial status of the restaurant; is it sliding into bankruptcy and hoping bellydance will 'save' it? (This is an alternate reason for the 4-sets-a-night request.) In this case, be very firm about what you will and will not do (dance on the sidewalk waving a sword, be the hostess in between sets, whatever) . Also, take the rates that local belly dancers say they charge with a certain amount of skepticism. They may be quoting high to a) be politically correct and/or b) encourage the new dancer to price herself out of the competition.

It is good to know what other dancers, clowns and Elvis impersonators charge. It is essential to know what it 'really' costs to dance and make sure those costs are covered with a cushion for those too-frequent unexpected expenses (a customer walks off with your sword! your costume needs special cleaning! You need new music and, gosh forbid, a couple of private lessons with a Knowledgable Someone to dance to the music!). You don't want your restaurant gig to ruin your interest in / ability to dance.

I know you are probably very excited about your restaurant gig, but honestly, in this area private parties pay much better and are much more enjoyable.

Like most of the other posters said, $15 per 20 minute set is NOT ok no matter what part of the country you live in. I don't care if it is Amish country and you have never danced in public before and you love this dance more than you love breathing - it is not ok to accept such a low rate for any gig.

I agree with staying with the rate but cutting down what they are asking you to do. How about suggesting two sets (going from four to one might be a bit much to get them to agree to, but four to two is better). That way you are not wasting your entire night at the restaurant, and your fee will be closer to what it sounds like small town venues are paying.

I, too, can understand the *temptation* to dance for next to nothing, because of course we love to perform and a new pro wants the exposure. That makes it *difficult* to say no to what appears to be the only opportunity in the area.

But lots of things that are right are also difficult.

As long as there are dancers willing to perform for $15 per set, that will be the rate. The only thing any of us can do about that is resolve to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Often when faced with an ethical dilemma, asking the question 'what would happen if everybody did it?' yields an easy answer.

I live in a small town in the midwest (close to St. Louis, which is a big city but not a high-income one). Prices here are MUCH lower than Chicago or DC, and prices in my community are much lower than in StL. That's a given.

$60/set might be a little high for such an area. But I wouldn't go lower than $50. maybe $40 if a very NICE dinner is included.

Negotiate!!!! And be strong. And be willing to walk away.

I agree that if the restaurant can't actually afford live entertainment, then that's unfortunate. But I can't afford lots of things, no one is dropping the price to peanuts for me.

I urge you to contact Lotus Niraja- she's in York PA. Also contact some of the Pittsgurgh girls. I think in these situations it's important to delve into what your priorities are. My personal stance is that the dance and respecting the dance comes before my own desire to "get out there" or my own "need" for "exposure" or "experience." I learned long ago that in order to have a healthy dance community in the long run, one must support and practice fair and reasonable rates.
$60 for four shows is not just low, it's criminally low. Your pay is NOT just paying for your time performing. This is not an "hourly" type job, it is a "per service" job. Your pay must cover the time you are performing, the time you wait around, traveling to and from the venue, preparing for this particular gig (makeup, getting dresses, organizing, creating CDs etc) in addition to the expenses of costuming, makeup up, props, CDs, education etc. When you consider all those things, you see why $60 for four shows is no where near enough. No one expects Amish country to have the same rates as DC, BUT, it should support rates that make sense for a business in this day and age- what about DC rates from 15 years ago? Today, many DC venues are paying $100 / 20 minute show and some more. Some are still paying less, but they were for the most part established a while ago and as you will learn- getting a raise is absurdly difficult. Out in Amish country- if you are bringing in business- $60 for one 20 minute show is reasonable. At this point you may have a difficult time changing what you negotiated- but that's to be expected as you went in blind. It's really good that you came here to ask, though.
Here's another excellent article from Artemis Mourat on dealing with owners:
Top 20 Club Cliches
Also, go to Morocco's page: Welcome to Morocco's Meanderings click on "articles" then click on "if prices are up all over" - for another excellent and informative article.
These women who wrote the articles and the ones who have responded - these people have found and maintained success. I'm sure you want to heed the advice of people who have success, not people who are guessing or people who have sour grapes.
Shems' article linked above is EXCELLENT. Looking at the rates that are around might be a good eye opener. Here's another article to consider:
Rates Article

In addition as you are seeking experience - know that restaurant or weekly venue rates are MUCH lower than party rates. Just FYI. :)

I agree with those who suggest you contact Lotus. She is my mentor and friend and is very generous with her knowledge. She also has an interest in helping develop professional dancers. I'm sure she'd be happy to talk to you about your questions.

There are some really good suggestions here- it seems clear to me that there are ways for you to still do this job without getting paid so little. If you go to negotiate this for a more reasonable rate of pay (either fewer shows or more money), may I add a suggestion?

Not every show has to be the same amount of money. For instance, if you're getting $60 for 4 shows and they decide to send you home after 1 show (happens ALL the time, if they're not busy enough to warrant the next show, you go home)- you'll probably get $15 for all of the hours you put into that 1 show. However, my area has rates that are set for restaurants- set by our Guild, and we get $60 for the 1st show, and an additional $15 for every show after that ($60 for 1, $75 for 2, $90 for 3). That way, if we do 3, we get $90, but if we do 1, it's not $90 divided by 3, it's still $60. Makes the owners WANT to have more shows- it's a better value, and we're not screwed on a slow night.

So my suggestion is this: you have an owner who is willing to pay $60. 4 shows is too many, unless they have 4 seatings, which is unlikely (if it really is that busy, they can afford more). So negotiate within his limits, and something that will work BETTER for them- Say $45 for the first show and $15 for every show after that. He's getting 2 shows within his budget and if they're busy enough to have more, then they can afford it, because they're making more. You're not stuck there for 4-6 hours (assuming shows on the hour or something, with dressing time before and after, 4 shows mean 5 hours at least), and if you only do 1, it's still worth your time.

Before they have dancing, it's easy for an owner to assume that more is always better. Last year, I danced at a restaurant that wanted 2 dancers, 3 shows per night (once a week). That means they'd be paying $180 per night. So fine, I got another dancer on board, we coordinated music (dancing simultaneously), and were excited. The other dancer wasn't ready to start the first week (it was REALLY short notice- like "can you start this week" which was in 3 days). So the manager said it was fine for the first week to only have 1 dancer. I ended up getting sent home after the first show, and in the couple of months that I danced there, there was NEVER more than 1 dancer, 1 show. So they had originally wanted 2 dancers, 3 shows, and ended up with 1 dancer, 1 show.

So if you negotiate $60 for 4 shows, be aware that if you're sent home after 1 show, you're probably getting $15. That's why I'm really in favor of having a higher rate for the first show, and each show after is just a bit more. If you know he can pay $60, I'd go for $45 and $15.

Originally Posted by sahaga89

Hey yall,
I've been belly dancing for 5 years now (I've been studying other forms of dance mostly ballet, for my enterer life though. I'm actually a dance minor at school). I'm just starting to get myself out there to get gigs (which isn't easy to do in Amish country) and was wondering what is considered fair pay?
I know that I'm not going to be able charge as much where i live as someone who lives in a larger city.
for example I just got a gig that pays $60 for four 20min sets one night a week, which seems a little low to me (not that I am going to complain about it, getting paid for doing what i love is always a good thing). I don't know, maybe my expectations are just too high.
What is considered to be 'fair' pay?

AHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:Aconfused:
Please please please i do not care how much of an amish country you are in(are you in pa?) that is like slave labor. 4 20 minute sets 60 is just the amount you should get for one or maybe 2 20 minute sets. If 60 isall they are willing to give i would definately tell them that you have to do less time... don't even set the precedent. That is completely unfair to yourself.

Originally Posted by indigostars

If you live where I think you live (Amish country ref plus being from PA clued me in), I would ask Lotus Niraja about what people charge in the area. I *think* she lives in York (where I grew up) and would have a good grasp of the market there.

Yes i live in pa, im not far from amish country and I dance at a restaurant. If you are not able to get what you can get paid there i live probably like 30 minutes away maybe you should practice some more(there is lotus niraja in york, a few dancers here in harrisburg and i think york who would be willing to get you out with some more experience) but considering this is likely close to MY HOME i really have to add another HECK NO i don't care if it seems like a great experience if you do it for that price now you will never get out of it. And say they want more dancers there either they will pay more (for me much more) for other dancers while you get paid much less or you will set a precedent that would be incredibly horrible.

Originally Posted by amarasdance

So my suggestion is this: you have an owner who is willing to pay $60. 4 shows is too many, unless they have 4 seatings, which is unlikely (if it really is that busy, they can afford more). So negotiate within his limits, and something that will work BETTER for them- Say $45 for the first show and $15 for every show after that. He's getting 2 shows within his budget and if they're busy enough to have more, then they can afford it, because they're making more. You're not stuck there for 4-6 hours (assuming shows on the hour or something, with dressing time before and after, 4 shows mean 5 hours at least), and if you only do 1, it's still worth your time.

I really like this solution! Agree with the rest of the post too.

BTW, I am going to add a booking page on my website, does anyone have the link to the format that was ok to use?

Originally Posted by Khuzama

Yes i live in pa, im not far from amish country and I dance at a restaurant. If you are not able to get what you can get paid there i live probably like 30 minutes away maybe you should practice some more(there is lotus niraja in york, a few dancers here in harrisburg and i think york who would be willing to get you out with some more experience) but considering this is likely close to MY HOME i really have to add another HECK NO i don't care if it seems like a great experience if you do it for that price now you will never get out of it. And say they want more dancers there either they will pay more (for me much more) for other dancers while you get paid much less or you will set a precedent that would be incredibly horrible.

Even if you are good enough to command a fair rate, from what everyone has said about restaurant dancing/professional work, mentoring is important to understand business, professional conduct, etc.