Thread: Pricing?

I have had a lot phone calls asking for a price, person says they will get back to me and I never hear from them again. I have quoted many different prices for different types of parties and lengths of time. I do not know if my pricing is bad, I am being played for information, or I am being undercut.
Here are some examples
- for a 25 min performance in June I quoted $189
- last week I got a call for Saturday on Thursday for a birthday surprise party she had no idea wanted the cheapest price so I gave her $150 for 15-28 min, she said it was too much she was out of work and as a last minute idea, so I said I would do it like a gram for $125, she said her budget was $100 since she could not go over that amount. She never called back to give me the address or anything, did not leave a message.
In the same week a man called on Thursday for a bachelor party on Friday, he wanted me to stay there for four or five hours! I told him I normally do not do it that way but it was $500, I could do shorter shows for less. He said he would get back to me, and did not.

I feel like I am losing jobs and I am very upset. I need the work. Is it my prices, meanwhile I was busing tables to make ends meet, but I may have to give that up because if I get a last minute phone call, it conflicts with the time period,. Is it because my pricing is too high or not adequate help me bhuzzers.

Your pricing does not sound too high at all. I am not sure where you are located, but I generally charge a minimum of $150 for a 10 minute bellygram and start at around $200 as the minimum for a 15-20 minute show with prices increasing for show complexity, travel time, etc.

In most cases, people that call are not necessarily ready to hire anyone. My suggestion is to make sure you start a a bit higher than the minimum so you have a bit of bargaining room. A lot of people have never hired an entertainer before and don't realize the costs involved, so they call you without a good frame for costs in mind. A good rule of thumb is to also check the prices for other party entertainers (dancers, singers, musicians, clowns, etc.) to see what the usual range is in your area. If there are other belly dancers in your area, just make sure that you know the going rate and don't accidentally undercut the market.

Good luck!

Your prices sound fine (although $189 is a bit of an odd number - why not just $190?)

Sometimes you will be undercut, sometimes the caller wasn't serious to begin with and was just putting out "feelers" to see how much entertainment would cost. I would say only half of my inquiries turn into actual gigs.

On another note - be careful about bachelor parties, especially ones that want you to stay for 5 hours. Most dancers have a rule not to do all-male parties in general (I will make an exception to that rule if it's somewhere public, like a restaurant, and at a decent hour). A bachelor party where they want you for more than just a quick show is probably looking for more "entertainment" than just bellydance.

From your profile you are in New York state, right?
If you are near New York City, your prices are low.
If you are upstate- I'm honestly not sure, but they don't seem high at all.
When you add up all your expenses and time- your prices are not high.
Maybe work with a teacher/mentor on fielding phone calls etc.

Your profile says you've been dancing since July 2007, which is three years ago. I don't know how long you've been dancing professionally, but if your area is anything like ours it will take time to build up the word-of-mouth reputation that actually brings most of the private party bids to closure. Random callers are less likely to pay full price than folks whose friends said 'Hire HER.'

Also, and IMO, some of the pictures that are displaying in the sideshow on your front page are not flattering, and the fireworks background is distracting and does not display your costumes to best advantage. When folks hear about you from friends, they will probably go to your website 'just to check.' At that point, presentation counts.

Also, try posting your prices and see if that changes anything. If you are already NOT getting the gigs, how can it hurt? You might be pleasantly surprised.

Have a friend check your grammar and punctuation. You've got mistakes everywhere, INCLUDING the 'Registration' tab. It is NOT spelled REGISTERATION. These errors turn people off bigtime. And please fill in the pages with no content or remove them. Don't ever let a customer click through to an empty page.

Also, I would NEVER put in a phrase like "If you are a not-for-profit please contact us with your event information we welcome the opportunity for Karma service." Some of the best paid gigs will come from Non-Profit organizations. They'll be glad to give you the opportunity for Karma service -- but wouldn't you rather get paid $$$? Believe me, they'll be sure to let you know that they want a discount if they think they need it... or even just to fake you out a bit... unless it is a non-profit that is close to your heart, I say business is business, that's all.

Finally and lastly and even firstly... deep breath. Try not to get emotionally involved with the possibility that you are being played for info or undercut. Concentrate on YOU, on your dancing, on your public presentation. Of course you want to KNOW if you are being played for info or undercut, but what good does it do you, really? Are you going to stop answering the phone? Lower your prices still more? uh, no. So ... get that website whipped into shape, get only-flattering photos out there, try posting some pricing, and see what happens.

great post, Maura- I want to add too that we all seem to go through phases like this with the public- I have had 4 people in the last month come to me saying they want to come to 4 classes a week plus private lessons and how soon do you think I can dance professionally? & someday maybe I could even teach! When I say student recital after 18-24 months, at least 3 years if they work hard to get on a real stage, they take it in stride, but somehow never come back after the first class. I have occasional self doubts about how I structure my class, but I seem to retain other serious students(if less enthusiastic, initially) so I try not to worry about it-

Last year, it was weddings- several people contacted me about dancing at a wedding or bridal shower, thanked me for the price quote- sometimes even tried to make it work into the budget for a week or 2- but ultimately never called back to book. Often, people simply don't know what to expect. They never will know until they ask! Don't take it too personally (after you have taken a look at Maura's advertising advice!)

Originally Posted by zahrah1

In the same week a man called on Thursday for a bachelor party on Friday, he wanted me to stay there for four or five hours! I told him I normally do not do it that way but it was $500, I could do shorter shows for less. He said he would get back to me, and did not.

He did you a favor by not getting back to you. Why would anyone want a pretty girl at a bachelor party for 5 hours. I'll give you a hint, it's probably not for dancing.

Also your prices are way way way too low for Long Island. You are close enough to the city to charge city rates, or at least close to city rates.

Here I'll post them for you.
Private Parties - 200 MINIMUM
Restaurants 100-150 for weekends, some places are less if there is live music and a long term relationship with the BD community.
Weddings - 500

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

Sometimes you will be undercut, sometimes the caller wasn't serious to begin with and was just putting out "feelers" to see how much entertainment would cost. I would say only half of my inquiries turn into actual gigs.

This is my experience as well - sometimes even less than 50%. It doesn't cost them anything but a few minutes of their time to call around, so I get plenty of people who are asking more out of curiosity than having an actual intention to hire a dancer.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

He did you a favor by not getting back to you. Why would anyone want a pretty girl at a bachelor party for 5 hours. I'll give you a hint, it's probably not for dancing.

_Tanya_ is absolutely correct. I see gig requests for this sort of thing all the time on Craigslist, but they're looking for strippers, not belly dancers. This could have been a very dangerous situation for you to have gone into, had the caller agreed on your price.

Originally Posted by zahrah1

I feel like I am losing jobs and I am very upset. I need the work. [snip] Is it because my pricing is too high or not adequate help me bhuzzers.

I'm glad Tanya confirmed the rates for New York, because even though that's just outside my travel radius (I'm in Fairfield County, CT), I had a hunch that dancers in NY were making a $200 minimum for private gigs.

I think we'll all lose gigs due to pricing at one point or another. It's the nature of the beast, and undercutting is a problem in our general area, and pretty much everywhere. There will always be clients who want quality, without having to pay for it. Or, worse, clients who don't care about quality and don't want to pay for it ..c:: Bear in mind, this year also SUCKS due to the economy.

As you become more experienced, you'll become a better negotiator and a more in-demand performer. I've been performing professionally for about 4 years and I feel like I just had this breakthrough fairly recently, within the last year or so. It takes time. Prove that you're talented and beautiful, and that you'll help your clients fulfill their needs, and objections will start going away. Granted, the problem will never disappear completely. But it will become less of an issue and when it is an issue, you'll deal with it better.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

Also your prices are way way way too low for Long Island. You are close enough to the city to charge city rates, or at least close to city rates.
Here I'll post them for you.
Private Parties - 200 MINIMUM
Restaurants 100-150 for weekends, some places are less if there is live music and a long term relationship with the BD community.
Weddings - 500

Ahhh...yes! Thank you Tanya for posting with geographical knowledge ..g.:. I don't know/didn't look up the name of her town.

Some inquiries are from people hoping it would cost $20. Seriously. Putting prices on my website has pretty much eliminated those.

That and the pricing issue have pretty much been covered above. I'll add that UNDERpricing can sometimes cost you gigs, too, if it's obvious you're not in the same range as others around you. If you were going to hire a clown and bids ranging from $150-200 and then one guy asking $50, would you hire him/her? Or would you think that one must be crap? (I realize some people would, but not the ones you'd like to work for, who appreciate quality.) Doesn't sound like your prices are that far out of line, just adding this for anyone else reading the thread.

The other thing to examine is your phone manner & sales technique. There's a lot that goes into that first phone call besides just stating the price. People also learn a lot about you from talking to you.

1) Poise & persona Do you come off as confident & strong on the phone? If you seem uncertain, hesitant, uncomfortable, full of ummms etc. on the phone, it'll be hard for them to visualize you confidently entertaining a crowd. For the same reason, you need to sound enthusiastic, lively & fun. If they're entertained by you during the phone call, you've won them over.

2) Professionalism. Sounding like an intelligent businesswoman who can be trusted to follow through on her word is very important. Using good phone manners and proper English is essential.

3) Sales proposal. Do you ask lots of questions about their event and then offer them a proposal that will suit them? Ask questions about the crowd & the room, and respond by saying "oh, that sounds like fun! For that kind of party I think a 15 minute bellygram with one dancer is all you'll need. I'll enter with a veil and then..." is very wise. Shows them that you're interested in THEM, that you know what you're doing (they don't, so they appreciate this) and gets them picturing YOU at their party.

4) Close the sale. "I'm still available, but that weekend is filling up fast. Can I e-mail you a copy of my contract so I can save that time slot for you?" This is the hardest thing for non-sales-people to do. But it's frustrating as a customer when the sales rep doesn't do this. Have you ever been in this situation? You want the thing, the sales rep just keeps talking -- or worse, seems to have nothing else to say to you -- you have other things to do. You have to *really* want a thing to say the rep "OK, I want it. What do I do now?" Usually you just wander off saying 'i'll think about it' and wind up buying it from someone who makes it EASIER down the line.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

Finally and lastly and even firstly... deep breath. Try not to get emotionally involved with the possibility that you are being played for info or undercut.

When I went back and re-read the thread, this point jumped out at me. Back when I first started, I used to sweat out every single e-mail or phone call and feel like dog doo-doo if the customer never called back or hired somebody else. I have no idea how I ever went to sleep at night. ,r:;

What helped me was a slight attitude adjustment. Instead of attaching myself to either the positive or negative outcome of any sort of inquiry, I started to look at every inquiry as "just another sales lead" until I closed the deal and received a contract and deposit from that person. Of course, you never want to convey this over the phone. Always show a lot of interest in your prospects and their events. But know, at the end of the day, that whatever conversation you just had means nada until you have formally sealed the deal. And always collect a contract and deposit - I swear, that changed my life.

Working in b2b sales really made me understand the old adage that sales is a numbers game. My old boss said that you'll do business with approximately 10% of people you speak with. And while BD is a little bit different because your clients often find you first (versus my old job, which involved cold calling), there still IS rejection, and there still are leads that fizzle out because the client didn't have the funds, or their wife got jealous, or they found somebody cheaper.

Some will, some won't, so what?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

The other thing to examine is your phone manner & sales technique. There's a lot that goes into that first phone call besides just stating the price. People also learn a lot about you from talking to you.

1) Poise & persona Do you come off as confident & strong on the phone? If you seem uncertain, hesitant, uncomfortable, full of ummms etc. on the phone, it'll be hard for them to visualize you confidently entertaining a crowd. For the same reason, you need to sound enthusiastic, lively & fun. If they're entertained by you during the phone call, you've won them over.

2) Professionalism. Sounding like an intelligent businesswoman who can be trusted to follow through on her word is very important. Using good phone manners and proper English is essential.

3) Sales proposal. Do you ask lots of questions about their event and then offer them a proposal that will suit them? Ask questions about the crowd & the room, and respond by saying "oh, that sounds like fun! For that kind of party I think a 15 minute bellygram with one dancer is all you'll need. I'll enter with a veil and then..." is very wise. Shows them that you're interested in THEM, that you know what you're doing (they don't, so they appreciate this) and gets them picturing YOU at their party.

4) Close the sale. "I'm still available, but that weekend is filling up fast. Can I e-mail you a copy of my contract so I can save that time slot for you?" This is the hardest thing for non-sales-people to do. But it's frustrating as a customer when the sales rep doesn't do this. Have you ever been in this situation? You want the thing, the sales rep just keeps talking -- or worse, seems to have nothing else to say to you -- you have other things to do. You have to *really* want a thing to say the rep "OK, I want it. What do I do now?" Usually you just wander off saying 'i'll think about it' and wind up buying it from someone who makes it EASIER down the line.

Lauren, as usual, is very wise. This is pretty much exactly how my phone conversations with clients go.

For my closing, I usually say "I just want to make sure you understand that I don't hold a date for anyone without a deposit. If someone else calls me after you hang up and wants me to perform that same evening, I have to take the job from whoever gets me a check first."

Everyone is making great points here!

I have my prices on my website and I agree with Lauren, this has pretty much eliminated the people who just call for pricing and never call back again. I still don't book every person that contacts me (like I said, it's about 50/50) but I feel like it has eliminated the "browsers" and "random inquiries" and now I get inquiries only from people who know what to expect as far as $ goes.

Also, definitely let the person know that you will NOT hold their date without a contract and deposit. People assume that once they talk to you, they can take their sweet time deciding because you already KNOW about their party....no way! Put the pressure on them - the longer the time lapse between the initial contact and the booking, the less likely they will be to actually book.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

I have my prices on my website and I agree with Lauren, this has pretty much eliminated the people who just call for pricing and never call back again.

I third this motion!

Listing my prices on my website has weeded out almost all of the riffraff. Occasionally, I'll get somebody who found me on Gigmasters or is calling down the list on PartyPop and didn't take the time to review my prices. But almost everybody who calls directly from my website knows exactly what they're getting themselves into, price-wise. It's made my life so much easier!

That is very good information, as for my website I just paid to have my old one replaced that was mispelled by the professional webmaster I will have to tell them! I cannot even correct it. I gave up my old probably better website because I wanted a polished look, but it basically was after I paid for it a choice of backgrounds, which I could have done and saved $200, which I did not have to begin with....

As for the pricing I think that is a good idea, it needs to be on there to weed out the riff raff.

I am glad you all responded because it was driving me nuts, and I was trying to figure if I should schedule other work one week in advance if I do not have something lined up and then I get one of these calls it freeks me out. Like you said Satin you cant sleep all night.... was that real...

I deeply appreciate all of your input!

Love my bhuzzers!

Here is what I am going to put for pricing

Zahrah’s Bellydance Price Guide

Minimum $200 most parties
Weddings $350
Events for which the dancer is required to stay for (4-5) hours $700


Bellygrams starting at $150 for 10 minutes

Deposit and Signed Contract are required before date is reserved for you.

Thanks for asking.

Thanks ladies for contributing, esp those in my geo area ;)

Originally Posted by zahrah1

Here is what I am going to put for pricing

Zahrah’s Bellydance Price Guide

Minimum $200 most parties
Weddings $350
Events for which the dancer is required to stay for (4-5) hours $700


Bellygrams starting at $150 for 10 minutes

Deposit and Signed Contract are required before date is reserved for you.

What events would you be required to stay for 4-5 hours? You can't be dancing this whole time so what else?

Zahrah,

The bachelor party that wanted you there for five hours? It wasn't to have your shows spread out during that time, they probably wanted you spread out during that time.

They very well may have been looking for a dancer who was also a hooker. Now that may not have been the case, but that's the first thing that I thought of when you said five hours.

Originally Posted by Nebula

What events would you be required to stay for 4-5 hours? You can't be dancing this whole time so what else?

There are dreaded "ambiance gigs". I don't do them, nor do I encourage them, but some people are comfortable with them.
There were posted rates floating around for the NY area for ambiance gigs. Maybe Tanya will pop in again with good info.

Originally Posted by zahrah1

Here is what I am going to put for pricing

Zahrah’s Bellydance Price Guide
Minimum $200 most parties
Weddings $350
Events for which the dancer is required to stay for (4-5) hours $700
Bellygrams starting at $150 for 10 minutes
Deposit and Signed Contract are required before date is reserved for you.

May I make one additional suggestion? 'Minimum' and 'required' are rather strident words. A softer approach could be more welcoming while still setting the minimum and giving you wiggle room for negotions.

Something like (fill in the blank minutes):

Prices start at:
$200 for a nn-minute performance at a party in your Huntington location.
$350 for a nn-minute performance at a wedding.
$150 for a 10-minute bellygram.
Mileage, holiday rates and longer events quoted as required.

In order to keep the approach soft and welcoming, I would avoid warning them about the deposit and contract. A deposit and contract should be expected. Tell them about it over the phone.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

In order to keep the approach soft and welcoming, I would avoid warning them about the deposit and contract. A deposit and contract should be expected. Tell them about it over the phone.

I never thought about it this way. My contract is downloadable from my website and I briefly address it in my FAQ's. The way I see it is, I like to manage expectations from the get-go, and if I can weed out price shoppers or non-committal customers before they make the first point of contact, then even better.

Ambience 100-150 per hour, this is the price point on top of a show with a show fee and minimum of 3 hours. For anything less then three hours the first hour is 200.00. But this was the rate back in 2004. I don't do these type of gigs so I couldn't tell you what current rates are. I'm assuming (since rates really haven't gone up that much in NYC in the last 6 years ,r:; ) that 150 per hour for a minimum of 3 hours and a show with show pay is probably a safe bet.

All good suggestions. Just repeating about "phone personality": so important to sound assured, upbeat, and clear. Always be prepared with specific suggestions for the potential client. Keep a written list by the phone with your information. If it's your personal phone as well, train all answerers with proper phone etiquette!

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I never thought about it this way. My contract is downloadable from my website and I briefly address it in my FAQ's. The way I see it is, I like to manage expectations from the get-go, and if I can weed out price shoppers or non-committal customers before they make the first point of contact, then even better.

I apologize for not making my goal clear. The goal I am proposing combines a warm welcome with accurate information, professionalism and self esteem: in short, a performance of its own, if you will. How the dancer creates this welcome is up to her. I am sure that there is a way to have a downloadable contract on a website and still have the tone be welcoming. But in this case, the customer is being confronted with pricing, rules and conditions in a short paragraph rather than being welcomed and then acquainted with the requirements.

In line with the goal, then, if the only info on the site re: pricing and requirements will be a few lines, then I would structure the few lines softly but accurately, as I proposed. Saving the deposit/contract info for the phone call does not disconcert our customers; every other vendor they are contacting for their event does the same, and without website announcements.

I think I understand, I used to have a separate line, but had to suspend do to financial reasons, so since I am using just a cell phone for all communications, some calls have I received while driving and had to pull over and sort out my thoughts to even figure it out, (sometimes you just cant),some people you say I will call you back and they just want a ballpark, and I try to explain well it really depends on the party and get info from them, so there is no short answere to that question. so I know I am lacking in the phone area to begin with..... maybe I have to keep a reminder with me of my rates .... have to think on this....

For website put the rates up, but leave out the deposit contract statement maybe just put one there towards the bottom of the page, as printable without actually saying it, maybe put my info for paypal for deposits, send deposts to: bellydanceyoga@yahoo.com.

Would that be less disconcerting?

Originally Posted by zahrah1

I think I understand, I used to have a separate line, but had to suspend do to financial reasons, so since I am using just a cell phone for all communications, some calls have I received while driving and had to pull over and sort out my thoughts to even figure it out, (sometimes you just cant),some people you say I will call you back and they just want a ballpark, and I try to explain well it really depends on the party and get info from them, so there is no short answere to that question. so I know I am lacking in the phone area to begin with..... maybe I have to keep a reminder with me of my rates .... have to think on this....

I use my cel phone for business, too, and I have the same problem.

Not a perfect solution, but I generally just let unknown callers go to voice mail unless I'm ready to take a call. I realize some people won't leave a message and it's a risk, but for me it's better than trying to field business calls in the grocery store, or on the road, or in a crowded restaurant.

if I had a dedicated line at my studio, they'd have to leave a message. Same with my cel phone.

It may sound silly, but it can actually help to practice you 'sales pitch.' It's the best way to sound like someone who has done a hundred of these calls and books a gig every day. In your head, or even better out loud, while you're driving or whatever you can just run through simple common scenarios.