Thread: Licensing Woes... Am I alone in all this? (rant)

So my event is in a new venue this year and I also moved to a new city with my home office, and I've discovered in the process of all of these changes that there is an awful lot about business that I don't know. Sigh. And in moments it gets a bit overwhelming.

In securing a new business license for Henderson (which is where I live), I had to provide proof that I was either exempt from workers comp or that I had insurance. Through this process I learned that regardless of whether the teachers I hire are true independent contractor or not, that I have to carry workers comp insurance. I also learned that the Department of Taxation in Nevada might consider some of the teachers at my event to be independent contractors IF they carry their own workers comp insurance and run their own businesses. If not, then they are employees, indeed. So not only do I need to carry workers comp, but I also have to carry unemployment insurance.

So after a tremendous amount of begging, I finally found a company that was willing to bind me for workers comp. Most of the companies don't want to quote an event because there is very little revenue. My "payroll", if you will, is under 15K for the whole year. Nobody wants to bother with that.

I also learned that I do not need to get a State Sales Tax permit, because I can apply for a temporary permit that will allow us to sell merchandise at the event. This covers us and our vendors for the 4 days.

The many aspects of being compliant in Nevada:
State Business License
State Use Tax Permit
State One Time Event Sales Permit
Workers Comp Insurance (to cover the teachers/staff)
Unemployment Insurance
City Business License with Home Occupation Permit
Clark County Professional Promoter's License
Clark County Clothing/Accessories License
Clark County Temporary Vendors Permit
Clark County Admission Fees Non-Resort License

Other business aspects of the event include:
Concert License Agreement (for music rights)
Liability Insurance (to cover the attendees)

Grand Total? Nearly $3500-$4000.

Some of these things I am just learning about as I grow into this role and business. But I also have to wonder how it's possible to compete with so many events out there that don't make any efforts to be compliant. $3500 would go a long way towards advertising, you know?

Certainly I've done my fair share of organizing things that were "under the radar"--albeit unintentionally. When I started this event, I was able to run much of it through the business I shared with my now ex-husband. And then it took time for the event to grow to the size that it has.

Please tell me that I'm not the only one out there that feels somewhat penalized for being honest. I don't like these fees any more than anyone else, but I also believe that it's important to be honest and do things the right and legal way.

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

Please tell me that I'm not the only one out there that feels somewhat penalized for being honest. I don't like these fees any more than anyone else, but I also believe that it's important to be honest and do things the right and legal way.

No you're not the only one. I'm probably more than half a world away from you but yes, trying to follow regulations and laws is very costly and often confusing as to what does and doesn't apply.

It feels like you get to a certain level and then you get hit with all these extra costs which set you back from growing and improving. And there is the inevitable array of "experts" who don't understand why you're not doing everything under the table and think you don't need to pay this and that.

Especially people who don't understand that not making a profit doesn't mean you have "non-profit" status in the eyes of the tax office/local council/government. It just means you're running non-sustainable event!!!!

Grrrr regulations!

I recently rented a kiosk at the local mall to set out brochures, etc. Even though I'm not selling anything at the mall, and it's technically in a different city than my business, I had to have a business license and a million dollars in liability insurance on the KIOSK. The million dollar liability policy I already have to carry on the studio isn't adequate.

And I learned that if I paid someone to sit at my booth and hand out brochures (say one of my students, or a friend) I either had to carry workmen's comp on them or have a copy of their policy proving they'd bought it for themselves. Even if they were literally only going to work for me for ONE hour.

I never knew about THAT requirement in Illinois before. Only me, the business ower, can opt out of workmen's comp insurance. Even the independent contractor teachers I hire, who carry their own liability policies HAVE to have it.

Which is kinda funny to me, because I've worked as an independent contractor for THAT city's parks dept. and I never had it. They never mentioned it to me. Neither did ANYplace else I've ever taught as an independent contractor.

Maddening!!!

Originally Posted by jilyan

Especially people who don't understand that not making a profit doesn't mean you have "non-profit" status in the eyes of the tax office/local council/government. It just means you're running non-sustainable event!!!!

ROFL...true, that!!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Which is kinda funny to me, because I've worked as an independent contractor for THAT city's parks dept. and I never had it. They never mentioned it to me. Neither did ANYplace else I've ever taught as an independent contractor.

Maddening!!!

AAAaarrrrgggg. That is maddening!! Seriously. If the city isn't even legal, why should the rest of us be? Sigh.

It's not that I want to sit on my high horse and be "right". The truth is that as an organizer/business owner, ALL of the responsibility sits squarely on your shoulders. For me, that means that I'm responsible for all 45+ instructors, all the vendors, all the staff, all the volunteers, and all the attendees. I'm responsible for ALL of it. And in a different industry where there was a much larger profit margin and some prayer of making a living it wouldn't be so bad. I'm responsible for the good, the bad, and the ugly. Keeping it fun, keeping it safe, keeping it legal.

And in the end, the outcome is usually worth every minute. But there are moments where it is just a tremendous amount to deal with.

You know the other piece of this? These practices make sense if you're hiring a fulltime employee, or even a long term part time employee.

But you're hiring people to work for a week, or a weekend. I'm contracting with people to work 1-2 hours a WEEK. what kind of workmen's comp payout are they going to get if they should be injured and unable to work?

Clark County's list of licenses is impressive. The workmen's comp aspect is scary. I had no idea.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

Clark County's list of licenses is impressive. The workmen's comp aspect is scary. I had no idea.

Yeah. My CPA said that unless I could show that every single teacher was covered by their own worker's comp insurance, then I wouldn't need to have it. I have the minimum policy. And it still cost me $600 annually. The good news is that every workshop I sponsor will now be covered, so I'm compliant for everything I do as a sponsor, not just the Intensive.

I suspect that Clark County can pull off what it does because of the casinos.

I love that there are only 3 unique users that have posted a response. I think that says something about the level of compliance in our community.

well, a lot of us don't organize huge, fab events like you do either- it's still a pain on the smaller studio level too, tho- & students really don't get why, if they're paying $15 an hour, you're still broke, or why you don't want to hire someone to help with the admin stuff ..c::

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

I love that there are only 3 unique users that have posted a response. I think that says something about the level of compliance in our community.

It certainly does.

And can I just say it also says alot about the type of "pressures" that old school/well established event producers may put on newbies that are trying to do everything legal and above-board.

Originally Posted by Lara L

well, a lot of us don't organize huge, fab events like you do either- it's still a pain on the smaller studio level too, tho- & students really don't get why, if they're paying $15 an hour, you're still broke, or why you don't want to hire someone to help with the admin stuff ..c::

word

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

I love that there are only 3 unique users that have posted a response. I think that says something about the level of compliance in our community.

I don't think so. I think it speaks to the fact that you may be experiencing a unique situation...

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

I love that there are only 3 unique users that have posted a response. I think that says something about the level of compliance in our community.

I don't think that is necessarily true. My dance partner and I produce events as not-for-profits on a university campus, and this removes much of these issues from being our responsibility. We are already full-time university employees so workman's comp. isn't an issue, and our events are generally sponsored by university units/departments so the fall under the university's realm in terms of insurance and music licensing.

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

I love that there are only 3 unique users that have posted a response. I think that says something about the level of compliance in our community.

Well, she keeps ME on my toes. In a way, someone who does small events in the public sector (like we do) could be 'undercutting' large events if we don't dot our I's and cross our T's.

On the other hand, there's always the need for gypsy-weed-wild stuff at the edges of the field to provide vigorous new seed strains when the cultivated stuff catches a blight.

Am I good at coming up with excuses or what?

Originally Posted by maurazebra

Well, she keeps ME on my toes. In a way, someone who does small events in the public sector (like we do) could be 'undercutting' large events if we don't dot our I's and cross our T's.

On the other hand, there's always the need for gypsy-weed-wild stuff at the edges of the field to provide vigorous new seed strains when the cultivated stuff catches a blight.

Am I good at coming up with excuses or what?

Nah....not excuses. Reasons. I really do understand. Obviously I'm still learning. This is the eigth year I've done this event and the first year that I've carried worker's comp. So I'm not innocent.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

I don't think so. I think it speaks to the fact that you may be experiencing a unique situation...

I don't think that my situation is so unique. Perhaps the list of Clark County regulations is a bit more than most people deal with, but the bigger issue here (regarding licensing and taxes in general) is applicable to everyone who is in business. These things apply to professional dancers as well.

How many people out there are running their business like a business?

I'm really talking about things on a much grander scale here. If a professional dancer has done all the right things to form her business and someone down the street hasn't, there are moments that this feels like the legitimate business owner is at a disadvantage.

I realize that most cities overlook small events and dancers. That they just don't want to bother. But in a recession such as this one, many cities are cracking down on compliance because they are hurting for cash as much as everyone else.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I don't think that is necessarily true. My dance partner and I produce events as not-for-profits on a university campus, and this removes much of these issues from being our responsibility. We are already full-time university employees so workman's comp. isn't an issue, and our events are generally sponsored by university units/departments so the fall under the university's realm in terms of insurance and music licensing.

The fact that you've done enough research to know this information about your situation shows that you are concerned about compliance. While you may not need to deal with all the same hoops that I do, at a minimum, you have asked the questions.

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

And can I just say it also says alot about the type of "pressures" that old school/well established event producers may put on newbies that are trying to do everything legal and above-board.

I think it's interesting that professional dancers here on Bhuz will rant about how their newbie counterparts undercut and damage the overall business, but when an event producer does the same thing, then they are just putting "pressure" on the newbies.

Why should established event producers not get comparable support?

Shouldn't event producers be able to achieve the level of "professional" too?

Running a well organized event (of any level) in this community is hard work. And it would help our community a lot if the expectations for a well-produced event were higher. Partially, this is happening already. There is so much saturation in the belly dance event market that to even survive you need to be smarter, faster, better. But at the same time, I don't think we should make excuses either. Ask the dancers...there are many horrible event organizers out there. I've heard the stories.

Isn't it important that this art is showcased in the best light possible? If the argument about raising the dance standard to the level of ballroom and/or ballet is even applicable, then shouldn't we expect that our event organizers are on board with this? It's not just the dancers who make a difference.

Personally, I think established organizers have a certain obligation to help and mentor the up and coming folks. Certainly, I've learned a tremendous amount by reaching out to other promoters: Dell & Isis Bartlett, Zymirrah, Brad Dosland, Amaya, Chuck & Kajira, Lotus Niraja (whom I love) amongst others. Truthfully, I still consider myself "new" in the scheme of things.

Hey,

Add a clause to your contracts with your teAchers stating that there is no employer employee relationship and that teAcher needs to carry her own social security insurances
and only hire people that in effect are independent contractors and can write out bills that can reflect that, that way you at least can get rid of the taxes related to having employees, just make sure you don't have any

an alternative that is used in Europe a lot is too hire teachers via an artist temp agency. So the temp agency becomes the independent contractor, paid by you, and they provide the dancers with employment contracts, the dancers get paid a little less that way, but if they only work occasionally this system saves them a lot in self employment taxes they then dint have to pay and no need for a business license

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

a clause to your contracts with your teAchers stating that there is no employer employee relationship and that teAcher needs to carry her own social security insurances and only hire people that in effect are independent contractors and can write out bills that can reflect that, that way you at least can get rid of the taxes related to having employees, just make sure you don't have any

Well, it's not exactly that simple. Part of the definition of independent contractor vs employee has to do with who decides when/where the work is done. There are other specific definitions too. We can call someone an independent contractor all we want, but if it doesn't fit the legal definition, it doesn't matter.

While this may help with the unemployment insurance, it doesn't really affect the workers comp insurance.

an alternative that is used in Europe a lot is too hire teachers via an artist temp agency. So the temp agency becomes the independent contractor, paid by you, and they provide the dancers with employment contracts, the dancers get paid a little less that way, but if they only work occasionally this system saves them a lot in self employment taxes they then dint have to pay and no need for a business license

Hmm.. Interesting suggestion. I'm nearly positive that I'd still have to carry a business license here in the USA, but it might make the difference on the other issues.

Honestly, Samira, you're being punished for the ambition and execution of your business by a parasitic government that feigns to support free enterprise while bleeding it dry. The underground element of our community should pay a tax to the few businesses that dare to attempt play by the rules for the legitimacy we, by association, share in. While I certainly encourage this sort of scope of endeavor, I don't expect many will follow in your footsteps. The red-tape barriers in place run counter to the nature of creatives and leave most artists on the fringe, where the viability of their business is always at risk.

Interesting article about the new IRS changes that are coming:

Stealth IRS changes mean millions of new tax forms

Want a face to go with the crime of robbing artists through licensing fees? Here's one from SoCal...
How a city manager of a small, poor CA town made $787K

Originally Posted by Lara L

it's still a pain on the smaller studio level too, tho- & students really don't get why, if they're paying $15 an hour, you're still broke, or why you don't want to hire someone to help with the admin stuff ..c::

So true.

Originally Posted by taboobrad

Want a face to go with the crime of robbing artists through licensing fees? Here's one from SoCal...
How a city manager of a small, poor CA town made $787K

Sigh. It's just awful. If one could only believe that licensing fees were doing some good beyond protecting your business from being shut down.

oh, sure they're doing great good, protecting all our poor lawyers, accountants, city clerks, business advisors, etc. preventing job loss, keeping them all in business- nothing against any of those people, I appreciate being able to consult my advisors- I have wonderful friends who hold all those positions, as well as tax auditors, etc- I just wish the government & society didn't make it necessary to consult them so often! I also find it troubling that people who grow the food we eat, make the products we use every day & actually get them to us (retailers, etc- in other words the people we actually need in order to survive) are paid SO LITTLE compared to all these crazy office jobs we think we need. argh.

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

I think it's interesting that professional dancers here on Bhuz will rant about how their newbie counterparts undercut and damage the overall business, but when an event producer does the same thing, then they are just putting "pressure" on the newbies.

Why should established event producers not get comparable support?

Shouldn't event producers be able to achieve the level of "professional" too?

Running a well organized event (of any level) in this community is hard work. And it would help our community a lot if the expectations for a well-produced event were higher. Partially, this is happening already. There is so much saturation in the belly dance event market that to even survive you need to be smarter, faster, better. But at the same time, I don't think we should make excuses either. Ask the dancers...there are many horrible event organizers out there. I've heard the stories.

Isn't it important that this art is showcased in the best light possible? If the argument about raising the dance standard to the level of ballroom and/or ballet is even applicable, then shouldn't we expect that our event organizers are on board with this? It's not just the dancers who make a difference.

Personally, I think established organizers have a certain obligation to help and mentor the up and coming folks. Certainly, I've learned a tremendous amount by reaching out to other promoters: Dell & Isis Bartlett, Zymirrah, Brad Dosland, Amaya, Chuck & Kajira, Lotus Niraja (whom I love) amongst others. Truthfully, I still consider myself "new" in the scheme of things.

I agree completely. I meant that I believe there is a newer breed of event producers, like you for example, that want to do it legal, but there are those that may have been just "bringing people out" for decades and never really worried about the legalities to any fine degree. Say like getting the correct visa, licenses, insurance etc. The later sort can put alot of pressure on the former to not buck a system that's working, for them. Sent you a PM

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

I agree completely. I meant that I believe there is a newer breed of event producers, like you for example, that want to do it legal, but there are those that may have been just "bringing people out" for decades and never really worried about the legalities to any fine degree. Say like getting the correct visa, licenses, insurance etc. The later sort can put alot of pressure on the former to not buck a system that's working, for them. Sent you a PM

Hi Nanda, I knew exactly what you meant. "old skool" operators could fly under the radar and in some ways still are.

"new skool" are trying to comply with all the laws and it feels like being penalised but in the longer term I feel it will create more growth.

kisses (real ones) :-) J

PS I hope to come to Vegas for the Intensive some day soon ... maybe event 2011 ... it would be soooo educational. Definitely a tax write-off!!!! :-)