Thread: advice on restaurants, professionals, students & local drama

yes, I know- it's all been discussed before, but I need feedback on a specific situation.
Setting the scene:
small town, no one's had gigs at all in a while except a couple very sporadic nights at the local Greek restaurant.
There are 4 professionally performing dancers in town willing to do restaurant work- 3 have an established relationship with the restaurant owner, and one (moi) has kids at home & doesn't hang out after gigs or pop by for lunch to chat & socialize like a good house dancer should. 3 of us are also in a troupe together, the other gal used to be in this troupe but moved on for personal reasons.
There are 4 students who are also in our student troupe who would like to learn to do restaurant work, they're good but they're not quite there yet, tho one of them thinks she is.
Restaurant owner now wants to have 2 or more dancers every Friday night- 3 of us are willing to dance 2x a month, one only once a month. Restaurant owner is known for asking the whole troupe over (he has financially supported the troupe for years, so we offered to do a free show for him *as a troupe*) but really wants solo dancers in both dining rooms going table to table. The primary dancer, last time there was a big party, took one of the other pros & 3 students, with the expectation that the students would only dance one or 2 numbers & would be directly supervised. When they got there, apparently the restaurant owner split everyone up & had everyone dancing a full set- they all got payed professional rates. Primary dancer had to pull a couple of the students aside for unprofessional behavior & students know they are on probation!
(cont...)

So, now that we have a potential regular gig that is more than any of us can cover on our own, and we have students hungry to learn, where do we go from here? To be honest, payment for students has been a big part of the conversation. The 4 pros all have our own business licenses, insurance, etc. & consider ourselves private contractors. The students have none of that, so if we pay them, would they be considered our employees? I can't afford WC for them!
I don't think any of them should be dancing unsupervised right now- one solution we have been playing with is to ask each student to sign up directly with one of the pros as a mentor- the student would not be paid, but they would not be doing their own set either- they would be worked into their mentor's set- so if there is one pro downstairs doing one set & a pro upstairs with a student, the student would essentially take one or 2 numbers of the pro's set, gradually increasing as her mentor feels she is progressing. when the mentor thinks the student is ready to go it alone, then she gets paid full rate & doesn't need supervision. the 3 original dancers have a long term relationship with this restaurant & I figure they can pretty much set things up as they see fit since they have put the legwork into this already. This is how they're leaning, but they asked me to see how this compared to national standards. I know there is at least one local hobbyist (who could go pro if she wanted to) who is violently opposed to not paying the students, but in my mind, having a student take on part of a set is different from dancing her own seperate set- the restaurant owner is NOT getting a free show for a hiring a lesser dancer.

So... WWBD?

I like your idea... especially with setting the students up with a mentor. Do you guys take tips? Maybe let them at least keep the tips they collect if you aren't going to pay them. But not paying them is a good incentive for them to take this seriously and learn.

Question to be asked is how long have these students been dancing? How old are they? How long do you plan on Mentoring them, having them perform unpaid? What does the audience and restaurant owner think of their performance?
My teacher mentored me. (My background at time was about 4 years cabaret and tribal). I had seen her perform quite a few times, including at restaurant. She was getting overloaded, like you, and recommended me. My 1st night, I did 1 set in between hers, not paid. From there I was good to go.
Still take classes and workshops with her.
I had another teacher, the cabaret, that did nothing but try to hold me back.
Could there be jealously issues? Maybe. She was always about the money with everything.

I think it's one thing, if a student performs at a showcase, or gives her first show under the auspices of her teacher, to not pay her. However I think the scenario you describe is a bit overly controlling and belittling. Managers rarely care about our distinctions of "student" and "professional" and "licensed." They want people to dance whom they like and think do a good job (however, ahem, OFF their opinions often are). Ultimately, if the management wants the less experienced dancers to do a show, they should be paid, same as the teachers. Working the students into a pro's show just seems ... weird and vaguely exploitive.

Now I totally think it is reasonable for whomever is doing the scheduling to arrange it so that the less experienced dancers are always working in tandem with an experienced professional, and that way their professionalism can be steered in the proper direction. But dancers who are working should do their own set if the restaurant wants it and should be paid. Otherwise, we risk an even worse scenario of inexperienced dancers making undercutting arrangements to try and push out the professionals who are treating them like children or we have managers that figure out that "students" come cheap and take advantage, and this is bad for everyone. We learn by doing, and we learn to respect ourselves and our peers and mentors when we are ourselves respected and given a chance.

Maintaining pecking orders should not come at the expense of equal pay for equal work.

I'm curious: what made the restaurant owner decide to up the number of performances? And why do you think it might last? If he's just 'trying something new' then efforts to make long-term plans to supervise/train / incorporate student dancers may be wasted in three weeks when he decides 'it's not working.'

The owner has been talking about this for a long time- he reopened the restaurant 2 years ago & has been gradually testing the waters in terms of what his clientele will support- I really don't know if this will last, but he wants a proposal complete with price lists (& discounts for multiple dancers which we are haggling over!) so now seems to be the time to figure out what we want to do as a community, whether this gig stays as big as he hopes or not.

@ Nadira- This is where the drama kicks in- the students have been dancing for 2-5 years- the most experienced in terms of dance is also the youngest & is quite simply not very mature- I don't have issues with her dancing so much as her professional demeanor. At the last gig, the 2 pros who went with the 3 students thought the students were ready. dancer #4, who couldn't be there that evening, did not think the students should have come, even for experience. This is a BIG question- I would rather mentor & tutor potential colleagues for exactly the reasons you stated- they are going to be out there anyway, I'd rather be on good terms & see them trained in professionalism. I am happy to help mentor, but I'm not setting myself up as gatekeeper!- but I was not there &, besides being in our student troupe, I am not their instructor- dancer 1&2 are their primary instructors. I really don't know what Dancer 4 thinks happened since she was not there either- but she does have a big problem with those students dancing in the restaurant at all right now, so we are trying to figure out how to get them there in a respectful manner. I guess I've made myself dancer #3- Dancer 4 is the one who originally set up the restaurant gig at the original restaurant years ago, then moved out of town, the restaurant closed & reopened while she was gone- 1&2 have welcomed her back & welcomed me as a newbie & I am much appreciative, but I would just as soon stay out of final decisions & am trying to make suggestions from the sidelines since I figure they all have seniority (& that relationship with the owner which I lack!) like I said, I'm asking for outside input on request from one of the other dancers who wants perspective.

Hmmmmm . . . this is a conundrum. Maybe my story will give you some food for thought -- or -- maybe it'll just bore you to tears. In any event, take from it what you will.

I was mentored into performing by my mom. We danced together, with me dancing, literally, not more than 3-4 minutes within a 15-minute set. I was paid by her about 10% of the gig amount. As I gained experience, Mom acknowledged my changing performer status throughout the mentorship period by increasing the amount of time I danced per gig and by a corresponding increase in pay. (My performing started after I'd been her assistant beginning in my mid-teens.)

Eventually, I did my first professional gig solo and was paid the entire gig fee minus an "agent's cut" of 10-20%. (Mom had done all the work coordinating the gig and in doing so, acted like an "agent" for me.)

We did this for many years. I definitely got the better end of the deal . . . I received wonderful first-hand knowledge and gained valuable experience with a pro dancer!

[Regarding the mentorship period: when I mentioned (above) that Mom and I continued dancing together for several years, I am not implying that she was still "mentoring" me in a true student/teacher sense; rather, she considered me an equal dancer as far as pay went, and continued to act as my "agent" when I began to do gigs completely on my own.]

I should also mention that I was 19 years old when I did my first solo gig. I was a good thing to have an actual grown-up with me, even after that first solo!

In addition, our gigs, though they were numerous, were not restaurant gigs; rather, they were party or corporate gigs.

I think it's important to note that our audiences were not paying for two dancers, for the most part. Most of the time, I was sharing my mom's sets (each of us took turns dancing) as a convenience for each of us: we had the happy circumstance of being together, doing something we loved together, with neither of us being responsible for the complete set.

It worked out very well for both of us. This was something we decided to do for us. We were not billed as "two dancers for the price of one." If I wasn't available, sometimes Mom took someone else or went solo.

To me, the most important thing is the "readiness" of the student dancer. Does she, in the technical sense, represent the dance reasonably well? Does she possess the emotional maturity to deal with the "things" that can arise during a restaurant-type performance? (I wouldn't in any way expect someone new to this type of performance venue to always know what to do in every situation -- that's what the mentoring is for! -- but can she handle stuff? Will she take to heart the advise -- mentoring -- provided to her on how to deal with the inevitable expected unexpected?)

. . . continued . . .

. . . continued from post #8 . . .

So the upshot, from my perspective is this:

I think using restaurants as training grounds can really skew management's expectations about pay if he/she doesn't compensate each dancer the same rate. The same goes for paying the pro her regular pay, with the pro splitting the pay with the student: he/she is still getting two dancers for the price of one. That's a bad precedent. On the other hand, Lara L's scenario has everyone paid the same rate . . . which is great! The major concern I have, as stated above, is how ready the dancer is to take on this responsibility.

Overall, I would like to see student dancers go through "trials" in other situations, then when she seems ready, have her sub when the other pro isn't available. IMHO, the best possible scenario would be having the mentoring dancer on hand to monitor the student the first several times to see how things go and to make recommendations that help the student along in her learning/pull her out if not ready. In your particular situation, Lara L, I recommend that one of the pros in your group (someone not dancing that evening) monitor the student because of the unique aspects of your venue -- one dancer being upstairs at the same time another dancer is downstairs.

Okay, that's my two cents worth of "advice." Wow, two cents of advice can sure take a long time to express . . . I wonder how long a whole dollars worth of advice would take to write???

Deborah
the long-winded

After re-reading Lara's OP, I had to make some quick changes; the most substantive changes are in dark blue.

Now that I'm thinking about it... more and more uneasy about not paying them. I really like Deborah's advice.

Thank you for your input!
I still don't see one set with 2 dancers never dancing at the same time the same as getting 2 dancers (simultaneous or dancing 2 full sets)

When dancer 4 was first up here & doing the scheduling at a previous venue, apparently everyone was paid on a sliding scale based on experience before (not entirely clear on whether it was by how much they danced during a set or by over all training experience? I wasn't here then!)

what about putting in an intermediate step- dance a few times in the scenario set out, when the mentor feels you are ready, mentor goes with the student in professional civvies to monitor the student on her own for a gig or 2? Heck, if I were the lone scheduler for a restaurant, I'd want to monitor a new dancer a couple times to make sure things are working out (for everyone!) even if they weren't a student coming up- as the house dancer or scheduler, it is on our shoulders to make sure new talent is both up to par & comfortable with the venue!


& I would still like to know more about the legalities of paying a student who does not have their own insurance & business license- none of us can afford workman's comp or the hassle involved with paying them as employees- if we set it up specifically as a mentoring program, would that exempt us & how does that affect the payment issue?

Originally Posted by Lara L

When dancer 4 was first up here & doing the scheduling at a previous venue, apparently everyone was paid on a sliding scale based on experience before (not entirely clear on whether it was by how much they danced during a set or by over all training experience? I wasn't here then!)

& I would still like to know more about the legalities of paying a student who does not have their own insurance & business license- none of us can afford workman's comp or the hassle involved with paying them as employees- if we set it up specifically as a mentoring program, would that exempt us & how does that affect the payment issue?

Re the sliding scale pay thing: does the restaurant pay each person individually? Or is the house dancer paid and then she divvies up the goods? (I'm not in any way passing judgment on the answer, but I'm a very curious person who always wants to know how things work.)

Re the legalities involved with paying students: from my experience, most of these relationships are "below the radar," so to speak. I know of a few restaurants that actually "employ" their dancers (dancers are on the payroll, are paid by check, experience tax withholding, are covered under workers comp, and receive a W-2 just like any other employee; the restaurant pays the business license because it is the business and the dancers are merely employees).

On the other hand, most of the restaurants with which I am familar have a very "casual" relationship with their dancers (dancers are paid in cash out of the till, no 1099 is ever filed and so forth); in these "casual" situations the dancers are not covered by any type of liability insurance (except what they might provide on their own) and most do not have business licenses. [as a potential point of interest I'll share the following: the business licensing of individual dancers for each city in which he/she might perform at a party was a huge discussion back in the days just prior to MECDA's official formation; (back then, MECDA was the "Middle Eastern Cabaret Dancers Association" -- sorta union-y in idea).]

So . . . the upshot is, Ms Lara L, that I have nooooooo idea how this would work out, except that I do know this: if the troupe formed itself into a business entity and "employed" or "contracted with" folks that they would then hire out, then the business entity would be responsible for all payroll, taxes, reporting (W-2 or 1099), insurance and licensing "stuff," just like any business.

Deborah

Wow, you do have a complex situation going here! It's always hard to balance students with pros in a restaurant setting. We have struggled with that a lot in Sac - nowadays everyone has to audition for the owners, they pick who they like, and we all get paid the same rate. I always require the newbies to go with me or another dancer on our gigs and share a few nights unpaid, to get a feel for how it's done, but they are paid equally after that. No, owners don't always have the best taste or understanding, but this seems like the easiest way for us to arrange things. As far as private parties and such, we have (kind of) worked out a sliding pay scale based on experience. It's a process, but our community comes together more every day!

As far as insurance and business licensing: the pros booking the students are not actual employers, as they are not paying the dancers. The owner of the venue is the employer, but without filling out a W-2 the dancer is not considered an employee, but an independent contractor - there is technically supposed to be a written contractors agreement and the dancer should receive a 10-99 at the end of the year (if this is all above the table). Therefore, neither the owners (and never the pros) are held liable for injury to the dancer unless blatant negligence is involved. Liability insurance carried by an individual dancer is only to pay medical bills if a patron of the restaurant is injured by the dancer (if say, a sequin pokes a patron in the eye), thereby protecting the dancer from a lawsuit; but won't cover the dancer if she is injured. And in this rare situation the restaurant would be held responsible, and would have a tough time going after the independent contractor if said agreement is in place. So liability insurance is much more applicable (and a legal requirement) for teachers, as the risk of liability for injuring students is so high (and a waiver is not protection).

And as far as a business license, it's technically only necessary if the dancer is making a taxable amount of income and filing on that income every year, and/or if you are doing any re-selling. Most of us do not make enough money from performances to file on (and good thing, because that self-employment tax is a killer) - kudos if you do! A business license is mandatory if you are teaching and selling, but not required for restaurant performances. I have a business license, resale license, tax ID number, and a few mill in liability insurance - but all because I teach, and teachers are required to carry that kind of protection. For this situation I wouldn't worry about business licenses and liability insurance - get those dancers trained in the art of entertainment instead!

Whew, 2 cents does take awhile! I hope that helps! Sorry to pontificate at you - I have been a self-employed independent contractor for ten years, and am earning my paralegal studies degree. I love bellydance and the law!

Originally Posted by Lara L

Thank you for your input!
I still don't see one set with 2 dancers never dancing at the same time the same as getting 2 dancers (simultaneous or dancing 2 full sets)

When dancer 4 was first up here & doing the scheduling at a previous venue, apparently everyone was paid on a sliding scale based on experience before (not entirely clear on whether it was by how much they danced during a set or by over all training experience? I wasn't here then!)

what about putting in an intermediate step- dance a few times in the scenario set out, when the mentor feels you are ready, mentor goes with the student in professional civvies to monitor the student on her own for a gig or 2? Heck, if I were the lone scheduler for a restaurant, I'd want to monitor a new dancer a couple times to make sure things are working out (for everyone!) even if they weren't a student coming up- as the house dancer or scheduler, it is on our shoulders to make sure new talent is both up to par & comfortable with the venue!


& I would still like to know more about the legalities of paying a student who does not have their own insurance & business license- none of us can afford workman's comp or the hassle involved with paying them as employees- if we set it up specifically as a mentoring program, would that exempt us & how does that affect the payment issue?

I don't think the IRS is going to pay attention to a couple dancers paid a small amount in cash once or twice a month. As far as insurance goes... make them sign a liability form/waiver so that you and the restaurant aren't liable for anything that happens to the uninsured dancers.

Originally Posted by Mychelledancer

Whew, 2 cents does take awhile! I hope that helps! Sorry to pontificate at you - I have been a self-employed independent contractor for ten years, and am earning my paralegal studies degree. I love bellydance and the law!

You just said so much of what I was going to say. Thanks. You made my post much shorter. Haha.

Glad to help!..g.:

Oh, re all dancers being paid the same wage: if for any reason an owner wants to pay a couple of his dancers more than other dancers, that's his/her perogative with the following caveat:

No Dancer is Paid a Sub-Wage, meaning All Performers Start at an Acceptable Minimum Wage, whatever that is, so that no one dances for the equivalent of a plate of hummus and a glass of diet Coke.

So, if the going rate is $50, then everybody gets paid at least $50, not a dollar less. That's my position, anyway.

Deborah
Opinions While You Wait ..g.:

[QUOTE=casbahdance;721314]Hmmmmm . . . this is a conundrum. Maybe my story will give you some food for thought -- or -- maybe it'll just bore you to tears. In any event, take from it what you will.

I was mentored into performing by my mom. We danced together, with me dancing, literally, not more than 3-4 minutes within a 15-minute set. I was paid by her about 10% of the gig amount. As I gained experience, Mom acknowledged my changing performer status throughout the mentorship period by increasing the amount of time I danced per gig and by a corresponding increase in pay. (My performing started after I'd been her assistant beginning in my mid-teens.)

Eventually, I did my first professional gig solo and was paid the entire gig fee minus an "agent's cut" of 10-20%. (Mom had done all the work coordinating the gig and in doing so, acted like an "agent" for me.)

We did this for many years. I definitely got the better end of the deal . . . I received wonderful first-hand knowledge and gained valuable experience with a pro dancer!

[QUOTE]

I like this set up.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Deborah
Opinions While You Wait ..g.:

..l;,..l;,..l;,

I think we've come up with a better solution for now- YAY for a tight community!

we boiled the problem down to this- we have advanced students hungry to perform but with what the rest of us consider professionalism issues- there aren't many gigs appropriate for gaining experience before going all out on the restaurant scene, so we are designing a 6 month to year long professionalism course & organizing a couple dinner parties for them to practice what they learn in the class. The teachers amoung us are excited about working on this- we'll see how the students respond (& we'll keep you updated!) honestly, I *SO* wish something like this had been available when I was 'growing up' in dance!
This way, there is no student-in-the-restaurant hurdle for now- they have another venue in which to gain experience, then they can decide if they want to really go pro with a clear idea of what that means.

We are also talking about simply organizing more dancer arranged dinner shows outside of this restaurant gig so we don't have to be so dependent on the restaurant & can focus more on artistry than on avoiding waiters, but that's a whole 'nother kettle o' political fish & I won't muddy the waters for now!

eta- just wanted to clarify- "better" meant better than all the headache we've been hashing out, not necessarily better than other people's suggestions & experiences, lol.

Originally Posted by Lara L

Thank you for your input!
I still don't see one set with 2 dancers never dancing at the same time the same as getting 2 dancers (simultaneous or dancing 2 full sets)

For the same reason that if my price for a 15 min. belly gram is $120, and someone asks for just 5 min for $50 I'm going to say no.

Most of each dancers' time and effort goes into preparation.

There has to be some minimum price each dancer gets just for showing up practiced and in costume, makeup, hair and nails. If you start slicing the pie up too thin, the student dancers aren't getting compensated for that.

I don't envy your job though; it definitely sounds complicated.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

I was mentored into performing by my mom. We danced together, with me dancing, literally, not more than 3-4 minutes within a 15-minute set. I was paid by her about 10% of the gig amount. As I gained experience, Mom acknowledged my changing performer status throughout the mentorship period by increasing the amount of time I danced per gig and by a corresponding increase in pay. (My performing started after I'd been her assistant beginning in my mid-teens.)

Eventually, I did my first professional gig solo and was paid the entire gig fee minus an "agent's cut" of 10-20%. (Mom had done all the work coordinating the gig and in doing so, acted like an "agent" for me.)

This is how I started pro gigs. My teacher would ask her clients if it was okay to bring along an apprentice for a small increase in price (more than a solo performer, but less than a professional duet fee). I would do one short duet with her and one 2-3 minute solo and then audience participation. I got some gas/candy money and experience seeing how gigs worked and how my teacher handled them.

I slowly worked up to duet partner at the full going duet rate. When I finally flew solo I was so comfortable with it and knew exactly what to do.

I can't imagine what it would be like to go cold into a private party only being told what to do!

I didn't start restaurant work till later. I pretty much went to as many belly dance shows as I could and sort of figured it out from there. I was confident knowing what to do (from the private party work) and was paid the same as other pros at the restaurants.

This IS a hard situation, but there are so many voices involved too and so many claims to ownership of the gig etc. I agree wholeheartedly with casbahdancer : "I think using restaurants as training grounds can really skew management's expectations about pay if he/she doesn't compensate each dancer the same rate. The same goes for paying the pro her regular pay, with the pro splitting the pay with the student: he/she is still getting two dancers for the price of one. That's a bad precedent."

Sometimes in a situation with so many voices and opinions, if you aren't right at the top of the pecking order, the best thing to do, quite honestly, is to sit back and let it all sort itself out. Once the dust settles see if it is working and if you can work with it. If it isn't working, then there may come an opportunity to make a change. We belly dancers are often such opinionated go-getters that sitting back and watching the dust swirl instead of trying to have our say can be really frustrating. But sometimes, it's the best way, and sometimes you get yours in the end! (At least, that was my experience with one gig. The whole world was grabby grabbing for it, I was getting pushed out. I threw a little snit but ultimately decided to sit back and wait it out. And the world righted itself.) A different situation, but the principal holds. Sometimes the best way to deal with a crazy situation is to not add to the crazy...

One thing that you could (should) specify to management AND the students is that the "student rate" (whatever you decide that it is) is ONLY valid if there is also a pro dancer (getting the pro rate) booked. I would probably go further and say one student per pro show.

You do not want to allow the management to cut out the pros and keep the students for the student rate. Or to mostly cut out the pros, for example they shouldn't be able to say "I need 5 dancers again this friday, but business is slow so just make that 1 pro and all 4 students."

And likewise you don't want the students to think they can go out and book shows for the student rate.

The manager specifically doesn't want to deal with student/nonstudent issues- he wants a dancer upstairs & a dancer downstairs & wants to know what our fees are for that, & what our fees are for 4 dancers in a similar context. He has made it clear that he doesn't care how things are split up amongst us once he cuts a check, and he wants everyone he is paying for to dance the way he wants them to dance (full set) which is why we were trying to find options to bring students in supervised for partial sets- both for training & because some of them freaked out when owner got pushy & they ended up doing their own sets last time.

This is why we've decided (see about 5 posts up) to arrange some small dinner parties as training grounds so we can bring them to the restaurant with that training that is lacking right now. There simply isn't that middle ground right now of party gigs or what have you for students to get their toes wet & gain experience- student recitals & haflas aren't cutting it! So we're creating a safe space to gain experience & hope it goes well!

Originally Posted by Lara L

The manager specifically doesn't want to deal with student/nonstudent issues- he wants a dancer upstairs & a dancer downstairs & wants to know what our fees are for that, & what our fees are for 4 dancers in a similar context. He has made it clear that he doesn't care how things are split up amongst us once he cuts a check, and he wants everyone he is paying for to dance the way he wants them to dance (full set) which is why we were trying to find options to bring students in supervised for partial sets- both for training & because some of them freaked out when owner got pushy & they ended up doing their own sets last time.

This is why we've decided (see about 5 posts up) to arrange some small dinner parties as training grounds so we can bring them to the restaurant with that training that is lacking right now. There simply isn't that middle ground right now of party gigs or what have you for students to get their toes wet & gain experience- student recitals & haflas aren't cutting it! So we're creating a safe space to gain experience & hope it goes well!

Thanks for replying re how management pays the dancers! My curiosity is satisfied!

I also want to say that I think the training solution you all created couldn't be more excellent!!!

Not every area has huge numbers of private gigs available for the type of training you want to do, so how do students get the experience? Create your own simulations! Which you all have done! Wonderful!

Deborah

well, we haven't done it yet- still in organizing phases, but we have high hopes & will keep you updated on how it goes!

I really appreciate all the input everyone has offered- especially the just step back bit, Nadira, & all the personal stories- it really has helped us put things in perspective!