Thread: **Update - it worked** Dear Undercutter (ideas for a nice letter to encourage rate raising)

Originally Posted by maurazebra

True, it is not illegal. But, even if not a special arrangement sanctioned by law, it is also visible. What folks get annoyed about is what they don't know about, if you follow me. If a dancer belongs to a union or a guild that states minimum rates where the public can get at them, and a dancer states that s/he follows the guild/union guidelines, then folks can hardly get annoyed about a behind-the-scenes agreement about prices... because it is not behind the scene. Of course, they can get annoyed at the idea of a decent wage for dancers period, but that's a different story.

We do have a visible public display of the Sacramento rates on the lovely sacramentobellydance.net website Mychelle constructed. It is linked to all of our booking pages. We want the public to see what they are getting for their money and in the end it is up to them.

Originally Posted by tigerb

And I was going to add: generally price fixing is illegal when a group of competitors makes a secret agreement to charge a minimum rate. So in contacting a dancer, be sure to avoid implying that other dancers have agreed to charge a certain amount. Maybe explain that having calculated your costs for transportation, costumes, practice time, et cetera, you have arrived at a certain rate in order to make a living, and that she might want to examine her costs more closely in determining her own.

That is an interesting way to explain it. I guess without explanation it does seem like we are pulling the number out of thin air.

What makes the agreement secret? If there is a local rate website that shows up #1 or #2 in google search for "belly dance "sacramento" , is that still considered secret?

Originally Posted by crystalllized

What makes the agreement secret? If there is a local rate website that shows up #1 or #2 in google search for "belly dance "sacramento" , is that still considered secret?

The following is written without looking at sacramentobellydance.net because my browser is acting up. So if something below is already implemented, my apologies.

If it were my problem to solve, I wouldn't worry about search engine rankings. I'd be interested in links TO the web site from the dancers who are participating.

I'd make the website interesting to me, and I'd have more of a intra-dancer tone to it rather than something that talks directly to the customer. You could call it something like Real Pay for Good Dancing but that's about as overt as I'd get, other than the suggested pay scale.

To support the suggested pay scale in an intra-dancer way, I would NOT include a list of Ten Reasons To Hire A Real Dancer, at least not prominently, because that has been done, and done well elsewhere. I'd do something like gathering your local pros together and discussing the real costs of a startup business (including the training costs required) and comparing them to the cost of going to a local college, for instance. Tape it, make a transcript, edit and organize it. Ditto for the costuming aspect: how much costumes cost, the hoops dancers jump through to have the variety of costumes that the customers want, including the effect of wet concrete on dance slippers :) Ditto for the ongoing training aspect; who has been studying what with who where and how much did it cost you to attend it / take it? Tape it, transcript, edit. Interview successful local dancers about how they learned to charge appropriately with descriptions of what they found it necessary to do or learn in order to charge the 'right' amount. The more painful or ridiculous the process, the more new pros will be able to relate.

Don't lecture. Be vulnerable. (Um, is that a lecture?) The local restaurant rate here is $25/set, more or less. The day my daughter stopped charging this rate was the day her $150 sword got damaged at a gig. Two other swords ($225 Saroyan) have been stolen at venues when her back was turned. Nothing puts knots in the stomach like realizing how many restaurant gigs at $50 you'll have to do just to buy another sword.

For additional fun, I'd steal the USDA's idea of price spreads and publish the various rates that you know are being charged with appropriate cartoons (starving to curvaceous, rags to glamour) below each rate.

Or whatever takes your fancy.

If you don't enjoy doing it, no one will enjoy reading it!

Anyway, that's how I would do it. And my apologies if you've already done it that way, because as I said -- my browsers are just freezing up like crazy today.

I like the video idea.

We list the Sacramento rates and do discuss a little about why they are the way they are (cost of lessons, costumes, ongoing education, time to choreograph....), but there are not specific price tags.
We also link to the rate articles written by Shems and Carrara Nour :) Thanks Bhuzzers

I think a video done in a "keeping it real" attitude would be very effective and also give the customer a snapshot of our cohesiveness and dedication.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

Ditto for the costuming aspect: how much costumes cost, the hoops dancers jump through to have the variety of costumes that the customers want, including the effect of wet concrete on dance slippers :)

LOL I subtly put up a couple costume links on my website to Sim, Dahal, bella etc hoping that customers would see that and be shocked at the costume pricing.

Wow this thread started off informative & got very interesting! I think what happened with Marianne shows how difficult it is to deal with undercutting...and why better people have simply thrown up their hands. It is a difficult issue when it is a dancer you either don't know or has been doing it this way for a long time. I liked the majority of the letter and if I decided to deal with undercutting in this way I'd use the gist of it.

At the moment, all I am doing is keeping the price of my classes on par with at least two other major (for my town) studios, and quote my own price for private gigs (def. higher than the average). If I am challenged by a customer I will explain why and if they choose the cheaper gig then its their choice.

Originally Posted by crystalllized

I like the video idea.

We list the Sacramento rates and do discuss a little about why they are the way they are (cost of lessons, costumes, ongoing education, time to choreograph....), but there are not specific price tags.
We also link to the rate articles written by Shems and Carrara Nour :) Thanks Bhuzzers

I think a video done in a "keeping it real" attitude would be very effective and also give the customer a snapshot of our cohesiveness and dedication.

Would this one help as well?
Rates Article

...Morocco has an excellent one, too. Called "If Prices are up all over..."

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Would this one help as well?
Rates Article

...Morocco has an excellent one, too. Called "If Prices are up all over..."

Definitely! I'll email the webmaster with that info. Thanks!

Originally Posted by shimarella

Wow this thread started off informative & got very interesting! I think what happened with Marianne shows how difficult it is to deal with undercutting...and why better people have simply thrown up their hands. It is a difficult issue when it is a dancer you either don't know or has been doing it this way for a long time. I liked the majority of the letter and if I decided to deal with undercutting in this way I'd use the gist of it.

Yes, I didn't even think that a nice letter to encourage pay raises for everyone would be met with a hostile legal accusation. I guess I lucked out that the target of my letter was not aggressively undercutting, but just uninformed.

Good to know all of this and know what range of responses to get, which is why I put the whole mess out there to begin with.