Thread: **Update - it worked** Dear Undercutter (ideas for a nice letter to encourage rate raising)

Hi Bhuzzers,

I actually just sent an email to a dancer who may or may not know the local rates and thought, hmmmm I know many Bhuzzers are much better at writing things than I am and they might have some better ideas on how to soften the rate critique. Also, I know that some of you may be in a situation where you need to write such a letter, but don't know where to begin.

This is a NICE letter. I want to keep it positive and uplifting.

Maybe this can act as a modifiable template? ideas, comments, corrections?

__________________________________________________ ________

Hi (insert name of potential undercutter),

I am a dancer from the Davis area and had a good talk with (insert name of other prominent dancer in the area) this weekend about Sacramento rates and how to get more of the gig market from Jodette.

I was a little shocked to see that your gig pricing is $150. You are worth so much more than that with 7 years of experience! I've seen your videos and you are a very lovely dancer! I know (insert prominent dancers names) and I charge between $225-$250 for basic private gigs. I think (other newer dancer) said she stays at $200, which is totally fine. You don't have to charge that much if you don't want to, but please raise your rates to at least $200 for private parties. When other dancers want to charge $200-$250, but customers have heard you only charge $150, it puts us in a bad situation where either we have to tell the customer that we are worth more than you are (not true!) or the customer thinks we are ripping them off. If we all agree on a minimum gig price, these awkward problems are avoided.

The whole community is trying really hard to repair the damage Jodette has done to gig pricing. Your help would be really appreciated.

I hope to meet you soon. I love your vintage dance style! So classic!

-Nyla Crystal

looks good to me!

I love how positive it is!

It is very well written. I like how you express the benefits of raising her rates and also compliment her style. I think that will make it much more likely for her to take your advice.

Looks VERY positive. I like the "you could be making SO much more money and you're worth it" angle instead of the "YOU SUCK, UNDERCUTTING WENCH!" angle.

Caveat: is she affiliated with odette-jay?

great letter!

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Caveat: is she affiliated with odette-jay?

I think she was, but has escaped and out all alone now.

Thanks all for the encouragement. I have not met this dancer and don't want her to hate/resent me right off the bat so I am trying to do this as nicely as possible, but as firm as possible. In the end, she can do whatever she wants, but I figure this is a "chance" to do what is "right" and now she has no excuse about not knowing the rates so when I can't do a gig and recommend dancers to customers I know who to recommend.

awesome letter...odette jay ! roflmao

nice letter Cgirl!

Originally Posted by crystalllized

I think she was, but has escaped and out all alone now.

well written :) you know, if she was working with the "other group" she may not realize that increasing her rates from $30 (that's what is was during my brief Sac stay. Don't know the current "rate") to $150 is not enough. She may have honestly thought it was a substantial jump in pay. I hope you can all work together and finally make things right there.

Originally Posted by sabrinabellydancer

well written :) you know, if she was working with the "other group" she may not realize that increasing her rates from $30 (that's what is was during my brief Sac stay. Don't know the current "rate") to $150 is not enough. She may have honestly thought it was a substantial jump in pay. I hope you can all work together and finally make things right there.

Yeah, I figure this is exactly the case so that is why I wrote the email (sent this morning) to give her an idea of what "the others" are charging in Sac. Now that a "madame" isn't taking a 75% cut of her private party pay, she gets to keep it all so why not charge the going rate of at least $200 :)

I think the letter is very well written and encouraging. If I was inadvertently undercutting and I received this letter, I would feel confident enough to raise my rates.

Well, she never wrote me back about the email, but I saw on her website that she raised her rates to $200 :)

Don't know if she is actually charging this, but at least when people window shop, they will see a more consistent price range :)

Originally Posted by crystalllized

Well, she never wrote me back about the email, but I saw on her website that she raised her rates to $200 :)

Don't know if she is actually charging this, but at least when people window shop, they will see a more consistent price range :)

Well, that's awesome! Too bad she didn't write back though.

What's with the slamming of Jodette tho?

Tough to maintain your supposition of being 'positive & supportive' when everyone wails on someone else, yes?

I am always a little surprised by the copy on her website:

"the one and only authentic teacher in America"

"I was the first to introduce the Beladi Cane Dance and the Candelabra to the United States."

"Jodette was the first in the United States to write books about Belly dancing and to record and choreograph authentic Belly dancing music and Belly dancing movements and techniques."

Do I admire this as marketing chutzpah, or outright dismissal of the other fine teachers of the 60s and 70s?

Originally Posted by JimBoz

What's with the slamming of Jodette tho?

Tough to maintain your supposition of being 'positive & supportive' when everyone wails on someone else, yes?

I try to be positive and uplifting to everyone until they give me reason not to be. To clarify, I am positive and uplifting to her refugees and her students. I have nothing against them at all. And possibly if I knew Jodette better, I would be positive and uplifting to her as a person, but certainly not positive and uplifting to her business practices.

Maybe you know her back story, maybe you don't. I won't launch into it again, but there are plenty of threads on her if you do a search on Bhuz.

Dancers not from her school are trying really, really hard to raise our rates both in restaurants and private parties despite the constant and blatant undercutting done by her.

It does suck that it is an us against her deal. No one wants that at all.

Looks VERY positive. I like the "you could be making SO much more money and you're worth it" angle instead of the "YOU SUCK, UNDERCUTTING WENCH!" angle...l;,..l;,..l;,

Satin, I love your straight forward honesty! Plus, you make me laugh!

Originally Posted by tigerb

I am always a little surprised by the copy on her website:

"the one and only authentic teacher in America"

"I was the first to introduce the Beladi Cane Dance and the Candelabra to the United States."

"Jodette was the first in the United States to write books about Belly dancing and to record and choreograph authentic Belly dancing music and Belly dancing movements and techniques."

Do I admire this as marketing chutzpah, or outright dismissal of the other fine teachers of the 60s and 70s?

I'm not sure if that's any different than many of the instructors out there that believe and/or teach:
- They are the only source of TRUE Egyptian Raks Sharki
- This is the only way to do it
- My mother brought belly dance to the United States
- Only Egyptians are worthy of teaching (dancing, etc)

Granted I'm playing Devils' Advocate, but from the outside, the thread seems to be a sequel to Mean Girls where everyone decides they don't like someone, regardless of the validity of the claims.

Sorry for the straw man/thread hijack.

Originally Posted by crystalllized

Dancers not from her school are trying really, really hard to raise our rates both in restaurants and private parties despite the constant and blatant undercutting done by her.

While I applaud the brass plated ovaries it takes to call someone on their undercutting, we all (or at least those of us who've been in the biz at least 10 years or more...and there's lots with a helluva lot more experience than several times that...not an ageist comment, cuz we all know we started dancing before we were born! LOL) have experienced this and experience it again.

I've edited this response before posting. I started listing my own examples of *current* undercutting practices in my local area. And I remember nearly 20 years ago when my teachers were saying the same thing.

OOooooh! Wait, one anecdote: even one of my original teachers was undercutting my workshops telling promoters that were discussing hiring me that I taught her material and she charged less!!! LMAO (as if I've never taken classes, private lessons or workshops with over 80 other instructors)

My point is that while I'm the last one to defend biz practices in our industry, the complaints are...unfortunately...absurdly common.

...'gang mentality' in our industry is disturbing, unrealistic and damaging to all of our communities.

That being said, once again I applaud the brass plated ovaries to construct the letter above.

For several years I undercut my Party rate for Tarot reading. Not because I was trying to but because I had old info and no one to talk to about it. Many dancers, especially those who have been with promoters who are serial undercutters themselves, have no idea how much to charge. The best thing to do is to keep putting the info out to people so they are aware.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by tigerb

I am always a little surprised by the copy on her website:

"the one and only authentic teacher in America"

"I was the first to introduce the Beladi Cane Dance and the Candelabra to the United States."

"Jodette was the first in the United States to write books about Belly dancing and to record and choreograph authentic Belly dancing music and Belly dancing movements and techniques."

I just got a similar advertising blurb about Jamila Salimpour in the mail...the first, the original, the best... now I'm really confused ;P

Originally Posted by JimBoz

What's with the slamming of Jodette tho?

Tough to maintain your supposition of being 'positive & supportive' when everyone wails on someone else, yes?

Another "Devil's Advocate here" - I think the letter is well written, tasteful, and a Very Positive Thing.
However I do agree that mentioning someone else by name is not a good idea. Your reasons to do so, do seem valid to me; but I still believe that leaving a specific name out of your letter makes it much more valid and classy.
Whether the comments about J are 100% true or not doesn't matter, whether the comments DO need to be broadcasted doesn't matter in this context : the mention takes away from the intent of your letter.
Putting the issue on a one-pointed, and what can be construed as a personal vendetta, [whether or not it is in reality] lessens the impact value of your great letter.
Disclaimer: I am on the East Coast and know nothing about the J issue, other than random mentions on Bhuz.

I know! Usually people use some kind of wink-wink code description that leaves most people scratching their heads.. but I'm finding it fascinating nonetheless!

Originally Posted by LiesaB.

Another "Devil's Advocate here" - I think the letter is well written, tasteful, and a Very Positive Thing.
However I do agree that mentioning someone else by name is not a good idea. Your reasons to do so, do seem valid to me; but I still believe that leaving a specific name out of your letter makes it much more valid and classy.
Whether the comments about J are 100% true or not doesn't matter, whether the comments DO need to be broadcasted doesn't matter in this context : the mention takes away from the intent of your letter.
Putting the issue on a one-pointed, and what can be construed as a personal vendetta, [whether or not it is in reality] lessens the impact value of your great letter.
Disclaimer: I am on the East Coast and know nothing about the J issue, other than random mentions on Bhuz.

Originally Posted by JimBoz

Granted I'm playing Devils' Advocate, but from the outside, the thread seems to be a sequel to Mean Girls where everyone decides they don't like someone, regardless of the validity of the claims.

Sorry for the straw man/thread hijack.

The validity of the claims?

Hmm. So you are saying... that if someone participates in business practices that hurt a local dance community... and this is provable... nobody should go online and talk about it?

And maybe I need to read this thread again, but I don't see how anybody has criticized anything but business practices: undercutting. They haven't cast aspersions on her integrity, for example, or said that her mother dresses her funny. So I'm not sure how you've decided that they are a bunch of "Mean Girls."

Originally Posted by JimBoz

My point is that while I'm the last one to defend biz practices in our industry, the complaints are...unfortunately...absurdly common.

...'gang mentality' in our industry is disturbing, unrealistic and damaging to all of our communities.

That being said, once again I applaud the brass plated ovaries to construct the letter above.

Because there's a lot of undercutting, nobody should try to do anything about it?

Because a group of dancers try to fend off undercutting in their community, that's a gang mentality?

And I know I do not speak for everyone... but I personally find the term "brass plated ovaries" kind of a backhanded compliment. Kind of like, "you're not a man, but at least you're as aggressive as one." Probably doesn't bother everybody, but it does bother me.

Originally Posted by JimBoz

While I applaud the brass plated ovaries it takes to call someone on their undercutting, we all (or at least those of us who've been in the biz at least 10 years or more...and there's lots with a helluva lot more experience than several times that...not an ageist comment, cuz we all know we started dancing before we were born! LOL) have experienced this and experience it again.

This issue started when I was still running around in diapers and I am definitely not the first one to call her out at all. The line in the sand existed before I started working up in Sac and I was told explicitly that I had the freedom to choose what side I wanted to be on, but that the choice carried consequences. I totally understand that undercutting has been around probably since humans first figured out how to trade flint for meat or clubs and that it exists in every industry.

Originally Posted by LiesaB;

However I do agree that mentioning someone else by name is not a good idea. Your reasons to do so, do seem valid to me; but I still believe that leaving a specific name out of your letter makes it much more valid and classy.

I do agree with this and was honestly hesitant to include that bottom portion in the letter. It also was the reason I posted this in the first place to get feedback. And I did from both sides so that was good! I wanted discussion and other ways of looking at it.

If I had to send that letter to a dancer new to the Sac area, I would definitely not have included the last part.

The person who I sent this letter to was a former student of Jodette's and therefor had learned her business practices, which was reflected by her website posting the undercutting prices. It is also assumed that when someone leaves her camp it is from some altercation, because once out, you are a traitor and can't go back. I was trying to appeal to her sense of justice, but maybe went overboard without the harshness of the statement?

I felt that without the last part, the letter was weaker and that she might have just ignored me because she was trained to do things a different way. Yes, community baggage got in the way, but I wanted her to know that the way her teacher conducted business was not standard and that she could join the "rest of the community" in working for better conditions.

So I guess the question I have now is how do I word all of that, but not pick on someone?

I am sure this issue is going to come up again and I want to finish my template and distribute it to the other Sac girls.

So one would be specifically for former students of J.
The other would be the same as above, but with no mention of J.

Or just the same letter to everyone with no mention of J?

I just feel that by not mentioning the elephant in the room to her former students, the influence of the letter is somewhat diminished.

Originally Posted by JimBoz

OOooooh! Wait, one anecdote: even one of my original teachers was undercutting my workshops telling promoters that were discussing hiring me that I taught her material and she charged less!!! LMAO (as if I've never taken classes, private lessons or workshops with over 80 other instructors)

My point is that while I'm the last one to defend biz practices in our industry, the complaints are...unfortunately...absurdly common.

...'gang mentality' in our industry is disturbing, unrealistic and damaging to all of our communities.

That being said, once again I applaud the brass plated ovaries to construct the letter above.

JimBoz, while I would agree that there is a grey area when it comes to criticizing other dancers for unethical business practices, I do not think Jodette is in that grey area.

She is charging $30 for gigs that everyone else is charging $200 for! That's not a grey area.

Nyla,

I applaud your efforts to raise the standards and working conditions in Sacramento. It takes bravery and courage to stand up and do the right thing and I admire you for it.

Your pal,

Surreyya