Thread: "Do you take Love Donations?" Rant

Ok, so I've been trying to put myself out there to dance at parties and other higher paying gigs. Well the last two people who have approached me have been disasters...

One of them asked me if I take "Love Donations" in exchange for dancing at her friends going away party. Since she's an associate, (I met her back in March and we exchanged facebook info) I didn't want to be rude so I just told her I would not be in town that day and I recommended told her I could recommend some other dancers here in Dallas if she needed me to. She never asked for names and never wrote back, so I'm assuming that because she "knows" me, she thought she'd get something for free.

The other disaster is someone who is doing a Woman's Conference, I quoted the rate for a workshop and show, and pretty much she sent me back an email about "exposure" and that everyone else is doing it for said "exposure". She is producing a DVD for this conference and she is planning tour dates throughout the country, but she doesn't have the money to pay people participating in the thing :(.

She is a very nice person so I didn't want to be rude. I didn't want to do the whole you get what you pay for thing...I just hope the next group of girls she contacts won't be ok with this exposure BS. Dude, people are paying a pretty penny for that conference. She's not doing it for "exposure".

I have been dancing for 10 years, but I'm new to the working dancer world. So far, not good. :(

Dude

I'm sorry you've had to deal with these bad experiences. It definitely sucks when people aren't willing to pay you what you're worth. Unfortunately, that seems to be SOP with the GP. It's best to just stop feeling bad for people/being afraid of hurting their feelings/not wanting to be "rude." They aren't worried about being rude by refusing to pay you a reasonable rate. Everyone has a sob story. It's great that you're sticking to your guns by not accepting these ridiculous offers, but you've got to stick to your emotional guns, too, and not let these moochers make you feel bad.

There's a local women's retreat in this area every year, and they have asked me to come and teach, free, for several years. I'd get exposure, and I'd get to take all the other workshops... no thanks. They charge a fortune for this, and the site is not that expensive, so someone's making a lot of money.

Wow, I've never heard the term "Love Donation." What a schlocky term for working for free

I was lucky enough to go several months without any price hagglers, and then they all decided to call me this week. There must be something in the air!

The one thing that never ceases to amaze me is how people will think nothing of asking a vendor to do something for free when they, themselves, would probably have a hissy fit if somebody asked the same of them. Times may be tough, but us freelancers have to pay the bills, too! I'm beginning to think that some people assume we have a well-paying 9-5er, a supportive husband, a sugar daddy or a trust fund and really don't need our gig money.

Kudos for sticking to your guns. The dance world really needs more people like you right now

It is not the least bit rude to tell someone this is your profession and you need to be paid for your work. A lot of people operate on the "you don't get anything if you don't ask" principle. Heck, I operate on this principle in certain situations. They generally know darn well that what they are asking for is worth paying for, but they'll give it a shot anyway, and a lot of people do cave (much to the chagrin of the rest of us)

My favorite was actually non-dance related- vending at a conference, I was asked "what do I get if I buy 2 bags for x price" absolutely straight faced I told her "2 bags" Dirty look, but she bought the bags and brought her friends back for more later.

& which bhuzzer was it who coined my favorite response? You know, people can die from exposure...

"I'm sorry, this is what I need to charge to maintain my business" is an appropriately polite response. Don't be afraid to use it.

FREE is a 4-letter word beginning with "F".

Originally Posted by Lara L

"I'm sorry, this is what I need to charge to maintain my business" is an appropriately polite response. Don't be afraid to use it.

I agree, 1,000%. This is an excellent response to those love/exposure/tips/falafel requests. Or you could also say, "I'm very sorry, but my own costs have gone up and I can't put together a quality show for less than $XXX." Both are great for those times when the conversation has reached a stalemate and you just want the person to stop haggling. It works every time. Because, really, a customer would have to be a jerk to continue to argue past that point!

Of course, remember that the person on the other line might have a change of heart after shopping for the lowest price. So always close those conversations with, "If you do change your mind, please let me know as soon as possible, because I'd love to have the opportunity to perform at your event if I'm still available. Thanks again for your call and good luck planning your event!"

I stopped taking this "personal" years ago. I'll say, "That sounds great! Do you want me to email (fax, call you with, discuss, etc. you my rate sheet?" or some such.
Many people in real life try to get a bargain for anything. It doesn't mean they can get one, but they will try. Some people have a lot of chuzpah period, but they are not bad people!
They don't mean it personally toward the artiste or plumber with whom they are haggling.
I have gotten some good deals myself from bargaining or bartering, though I am fairly mild mannered; but if the object doesn't want to, I don't take that personally either.
When I got an accounting degree a few yrs ago (late in life), the reaction of many friends and acquaintance was , "Great! Now you can do my taxes!" I don't think they meant - "at your usual rate" -!![I don't do taxes anyway LOL I'm not that kind of accountant]. I gave my same reply as with anything, "Great! Do you want my rate sheet?"
People have asked me for years to do free performances. I don't do them. [A benefit I choose to do for a charitable function is not the same-always provide a $value for performance/seminar] Good friends or family I may give a discount that they are aware and appreciatve of.
I don't lecture people or TMI and I am pleasant. Maybe I'll make a joke, "Sure, will you put in some wiring for me, write me up an insurance policy, hahahahhahetc?" I have never lost any friends or acquaintances over this. Or, if I have, I haven't noticed lol!
PS I have been accused of being blunt which flabbercasts me as I think I try to be considerate at all times, don't you? More LOL
ETA: Meaning: don't you (generic you) try to be considerate?, NOT "don't you think I "liesa" am so considerate la la la!"

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I agree, 1,000%. This is an excellent response to those love/exposure/tips/falafel requests. Or you could also say, "I'm very sorry, but my own costs have gone up and I can't put together a quality show for less than ." Both are great for those times when the conversation has reached a stalemate and you just want the person to stop haggling. It works every time. Because, really, a customer would have to be a jerk to continue to argue past that point!

Of course, remember that the person on the other line might have a change of heart after shopping for the lowest price. So always close those conversations with, "If you do change your mind, please let me know as soon as possible, because I'd love to have the opportunity to perform at your event if I'm still available. Thanks again for your call and good luck planning your event!"

Oh, I like that one even better.

BTW- I actually do print these things out next to my phone as memory prompts- I have my contracts & calendar there for easy reference too. If I can't compose a decent voicemail message for my phone without a script, there is no way I am going to remember good responses on the fly without one!

...i keep hearing barry white....luuuuv donation!
how do you all feel about asking a dancer to be in a show, and then charge them to dance....and you dont know about it till day of show?...sorta the same $$$$$$ trap ?

Originally Posted by Lara L

BTW- I actually do print these things out next to my phone as memory prompts- I have my contracts & calendar there for easy reference too. If I can't compose a decent voicemail message for my phone without a script, there is no way I am going to remember good responses on the fly without one!

This is an excellent idea! When it comes to selling, scripts are your friend! (Eventually, you'll get so good that you won't need one).

Back when I did b2b sales, we actually had to attend numerous seminars on how to overcome objections from prospects. We were given cheat sheets at the end with every objection in the book, from "It's too expensive" to "I tried radio advertising once before and it didn't work" and our boss encouraged us to memorize the objections and pin the cheat sheets up in our cubicles.

Also, role playing. I hated role playing when I worked in sales, but it forces you to practice sales scripts in "real time." If you REALLY freeze up on the phone, I highly recommend that you enlist the help of your friend, husband, teacher, or whatever, and have them play the part of the irate customer. (This actually would be a fun, funny and useful exercise if you're teaching a class of pro-level students).

Do whatever you need to, so that it all becomes second nature. Then, you'll sound more professional and feel less inclined to fall for various forms of discounting or barter

I've been asked to do a couple of parties/events although I do not actively seek them.

I do keep up with rates so I know how much to ask for once I have a good idea what the event entails.

Every time, the person tried to negotiate my price down significantly or even ask me to dance for free.

I just thank them for considering me and tell them to contact me if they change their minds and decide they can afford me, for this or any subsequent events. Good luck, and have fun.


Some events are expensive to put out and I totally understand a potential client wanting to save money. On the other hand, I am not doing work for less than what my work is worth. I have a full time job, so I don't need to worry about "missing out" on any gigs. I believe you do, as well? So, don't sweat it.

I agree with several posters that it's best not to get snippy, even if you feel that way. I usually tell the requester that my accountant won't let me take any more "exposure" gigs for the year, and that if their budget changes, I would be delighted to take part.

Thanks all for the advice. I definitely agree that it's better not to get snippy, and I did tell them both to keep me in mind if their budgets changed.

I think I'm more upset because I was really excited to get my first party gig, and it didn't work out. :(

Although I've read about these types of request many times, I never thought it would happen to me. LOL!

I'm definitely going to write a script so that I can be better at selling myself. I've never been particularly good at sales, so that'll be a huge help.

Originally Posted by ejaghana

I think I'm more upset because I was really excited to get my first party gig, and it didn't work out. :(

That's part of the learning process you'll go through. Honestly, the first year I transitioned from student to pro was such an emotional roller coaster. It all gets better, but for me, the hardest part was learning to negotiate and also, learning to detach myself from the negative outcomes of certain booking conversations. I took a lot of stuff personally that now, I'd probably just brush off.

It's unfortunate that your first gig request turned out to be a dud - but don't worry, you'll get plenty of chances to prove yourself, and you WILL get that first party gig. Just keep practicing those sales scripts, and keep your chin up!

I thought from the subject line that this was some drunk guy's idea of a proposition or a weirdo posting on Craigslist. What, pray tell, does one do with a "love donation"? Eat it with fava beans and a nice chianti?

Be polite, be professional, but just say no.

I opened to find out what the heck a love donation was..... unfortunately my mind wandered to places best left unseen!

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I thought from the subject line that this was some drunk guy's idea of a proposition or a weirdo posting on Craigslist. What, pray tell, does one do with a "love donation"? Eat it with fava beans and a nice chianti?

This is exactly what I thought. After asking around, I found that the term "love donation" is popular in New Age circles, meaning people give you a small donation of whatever amount of money they see fit. Great if 10 people each make you a "love donation" of $100. Not so great if 2 people find it in their little hearts to give you $10.

I'll keep my New Age snark out of this conversation. But I still picture Barry White. Or happy endings.

Originally Posted by bintbeled

There's a local women's retreat in this area every year, and they have asked me to come and teach, free, for several years. I'd get exposure, and I'd get to take all the other workshops... no thanks. They charge a fortune for this, and the site is not that expensive, so someone's making a lot of money.

Cause you need the exposure!!! (*snort*)

Originally Posted by ejaghana

I have been dancing for 10 years, but I'm new to the working dancer world. So far, not good. :(

Dude

It's kind of a rude awakening, isn't it?

Try not to take it personally. This happens to EVERYONE who is in business, it's not an insult to you or a devaluation of your dancing.

You would be asked by random acquaintances and total strangers to do FREE work for them if you were a lawyer, a chef, a caterer, an auto mechanic, a psychotherapist, a massage therapist, or a plumber.

Seems there are two kinds of people in the world. Very independent types who wouldn't ask for a favor if their lives depended on it, and people who think 'Well, it can't hurt to ask' and ask for free stuff and big favors right and left. Those in the first group feel very put on the spot by those in the second group, because we wouldn't ask unless we A) felt entitled somehow and/or B) our lives depended on it.

Getting used to the idea that people think 'Well it can't hurt to ask' and that they really don't necessarily EXPECT you to say yes is hard.

The good news is, whatever business you're in, the longer you do it the more people around you will take you seriously as an established professional and the requests decrease (though they never disappear).

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

This is exactly what I thought. After asking around, I found that the term "love donation" is popular in New Age circles, meaning people give you a small donation of whatever amount of money they see fit. Great if 10 people each make you a "love donation" of $100. Not so great if 2 people find it in their little hearts to give you $10.

I'll keep my New Age snark out of this conversation. But I still picture Barry White. Or happy endings.

Yup. Once comes across this concept quite a bit in Yoga circles, sometimes called a Love Offering. The idea is that those who can afford more will be generous and those who are struggling will get what they need for free. It's a hippie commune sort of concept that ONLY works well if the whole group is really on board with advanced spiritual concepts like karma and nongrasping.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I thought from the subject line that this was some drunk guy's idea of a proposition or a weirdo posting on Craigslist.

I thought it would be someone's random offer of money or gifts, not as payment for a gig. For example, a male fan giving you jewelry after a show because he likes you so much.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Yup. Once comes across this concept quite a bit in Yoga circles, sometimes called a Love Offering. The idea is that those who can afford more will be generous and those who are struggling will get what they need for free. It's a hippie commune sort of concept that ONLY works well if the whole group is really on board with advanced spiritual concepts like karma and nongrasping.

Exactly. I'm not familiar with the concept firsthand, but I'm sure in an ideal situation, you'd expect those people to either make enough donations to cover your performance fee or otherwise do something nice in return when the occasion arises. It probably works best when you know the people in the group and feel confident in their generosity.

Otherwise, for all we know, a "love offering" could be an event organizer's idea of jazzing up a request that their vendors work for free

Nice concept in theory, but there's no guarantee that it'll actually pan out.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

I thought it would be someone's random offer of money or gifts, not as payment for a gig. For example, a male fan giving you jewelry after a show because he likes you so much.

I take jewelry from women too...l;,

PS. I have about had it with all this love and exposure.

..l;,..l;,..l;,

It sounds to me like a "Love Offering" is basically equivalent to a tip.

Originally Posted by shems

It sounds to me like a "Love Offering" is basically equivalent to a tip.

Well, a tip is one thing because it is assumed to be IN ADDITION TO your pay.

What's going on these days, especially since Times Are Legitimately Hard - people want free entertainment and in exchange you are supposed to get "exposure" and/or voluntary compensation which can amount to nothing, it can be quite a bit but there's no guarantee.

In some circumstances that can be ok - but consider the amount of work involved in a performance. It's a lot, it's not *just* the time on stage, my goodness it takes me the whole darn day just to look semi-human anymore.

Then there's getting across town with $1,000 costume, fixing the music, getting dressed often in wierd environments - that drives me absolutely NUTS - not having privacy and decent mirrors and a safe place to put the purse and especially my glasses, this being Bat City over here - then you gotta get home -

We are worth real money darn it.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Seems there are two kinds of people in the world. Very independent types who wouldn't ask for a favor if their lives depended on it, and people who think 'Well, it can't hurt to ask' and ask for free stuff and big favors right and left. Those in the first group feel very put on the spot by those in the second group, because we wouldn't ask unless we A) felt entitled somehow and/or B) our lives depended on it.

Getting used to the idea that people think 'Well it can't hurt to ask' and that they really don't necessarily EXPECT you to say yes is hard.

Which reminds me very much of this:

This column will change your life: Are you an Asker or a Guesser? | Life and style | The Guardian

I'm not sure if it's been discussed here before, but it's a useful read.

Originally Posted by Suzana

Which reminds me very much of this:

This column will change your life: Are you an Asker or a Guesser? | Life and style | The Guardian

I'm not sure if it's been discussed here before, but it's a useful read.

Ah! Good read.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

snipped:
... and a safe place to put the purse and especially my glasses, this being Bat City over here - -
.

OK I gotta go off topic here, this is just too funny. I am the same re: Bat City, I stopped wearing contacts maybe 15 yrs ago & have performed "blind" ever since. There was a thread on this a few months ago!
I am totally used to it and no problem. Where I put my glasses though is o-so-crucial!! Once they're off, I'll never find them if they are somewhere weird.
So when they're off, I make a General Announcement (offstage of course) "OK the specs are off now, you all know I am Blind As A Bat, so do not attempt to communicate with me by Eye Contact or Subtle Gestures!!
OK
But seriously folks, just say no.