Thread: Professional troupe pricing & marketing

Tell me about your experiences promoting professional troupes?

Up until now, my troupe has been a student group and I've hand-picked a few students for a few professional gigs that have come along. Most requests are for charity work.

I'm now organizing a Dance Company with a more professional standard, and I'd like to promote the group. But how do you price a show with 4-7 dancers so the dancers make a reasonable amount for their effort without pricing yourself out of the market?

And who do I need to be contacting to promote the group? I'm in a Midwestern suburban area of mid-sized towns, I realize demand will be limited to begin with. Besides nursing home activity directors (who have ridiculous budgets) and managers of banquet halls/hotels, and event planners, who else should I be talking to?

What sorts of cultural opportunities do you have? A local arts council? Museums? An annual community festival where all of the various ___-American groups come together? A Ren Faire?

No arts council. No museums (other than each town's historical society collection of local & geneological items). There is an annual International Festival, sponsored by a large Catholic Shrine (I intend to invite the appropriate person from there and showcase our folk dances, since I don't think they'll want bellydance).

There's also a university, they've hired us for their international showcase in the past, AND I've worked with their dance department. But it's tricky because it's often senior students who organize these things so the contact person from last year is never present.

There's a community college as well.

We get contacted a lot to do fundraisers gratis, which we'll do if we truly think they're good publicity for the studio.

hiring the "small" troupe, starts "from" 600€ here.

the client than basically gets one set, with one/two solo's, plus one or two group numbers and a hoempapa finale. i ask more money for the solists than the group members as they are mostly advanced students/in training, and this gives me some leeway in how many of the group dancers i send along (but for this money not more than 4-5). the girls are well trained, in nice proper (though not really high end) costuming, good at the group stuff, but most are not ready for full sets on their own. but they're working on it.

if they'd hire just the two soloists (one set with solo's, duets, about 20min), i'd charge 300€. two sets with two dancers is 500€.

if the client clearly wants a more expansive show, meaning extra rehearsing, more sets, etc etc, i start at a 150€ per dancer.

for the really corporate gigs, at the moment i still rather try to sell them a show with two-three professional dancers than "the group", till i get more of the group girls up to speed/in appropriate high end costuming etc

my "new" project, is a temporary professional troupe, with handpicked dancers that are NOT my students but other local pro's. but so far we have just rehearsed towards the ONE big theatre show, and i dont know if and how i'm going to continue this. the routines we made for that are really stage show stuff, not gp gig between the tables stuff

the community stuff the group does is mostly non-paid, or expenses paid, and we like doing those too.

how to advertise it, well, i'm trying to get some kind of promo package together, with pictures, maybe video material etc.

The state of the economy (and the tax base) is really affecting local festivals here n a city of one million +. Two major and long standing festivals nearly didn't happen this year (municipalities didn't want to supply essential services as they had in the past) because of shortfalls in gov't budgets. People and companies having parties and galas are our most reliable group venue, and this group seems to hear about us via word of mouth... somebody who saw us a couple of years ago told their friends about us when they heard a party was being held. Our website seems to be used as a supplement to the word of mouth, not as the initial contact point. Very frustrating.

Artemisia, thanks so much for sharing all the info.

Who hires the group, mostly? Have they so far found you mostly through your website? Has it been corporations directly, or have they used event planning services?

I plan to rent a small theater and stage a showcase for the Company next spring. My intentions are to get a good quality video and maybe still shots for promo purposes, and to invite a number of potential clients to see us live.

But I'm not sure where to look for the potential clients!

lauren, if you ever have more detailed questions, want to chat about this, do email me. nice to compare notes.

emotionvzw at gmail dot com

mostly event planning services, that i worked with as a soloist before.

also, if corporations hire me, and enquire about A dancer, i give them the "menu". and sometimes their budget seems to cover a larger group. so if they ask for "one dancer one set", and the price for that, i give them that answer, but also a little list of our "other" options. and quite regularly they end up going for a more expensive option, as they see more is "possible". when they email initially, it's not always clear to them that MORE than a solo is possible.

the problem i am struggling with is dancers who keep charging their solo price, and bring a student group along for the ride "because they enjoy it". for them that's a student retention method, and a "make the students buy stuff" method. But that is really undercutting the business and we've lost several gigs that way, both solo requests (where for that price they get just ME, but ofcourse they go for the other dancer PLUS her students for free), or i get requests for a troupe (where i then charge for the group and i think i still dont charge enough, but someone else just charges for herself still plus the group for free).

so beware of that!

also, most of my students are not self employed. so i cant pay them. whatever you do, you need to communicate with people where the money goes.

in the past (not currently) i've had issues with students in the troupe who after having gotten a few paid gigs end wanting to do ONLY those, and no longer the community free stuff. for me it's kind of all or nothing. and i tend to give the paid gigs to the girls who are MORE inclined to help out with the free stuff also.

a lot of the troupe stuff are freebies, festival type stuff, that we do for fun, student retention, to have a goal, etc.

i am working towards being able to do more corporate stuff, but depending on the economy those type gigs go up and down.

Thanks, Artemisia, that's all really really helpful!

ah, and one more thing. once you move from the freebie festival type stuff, to the paid gigs, how people LOOK and their AGE becomes more important. And i struggle with that. i dread the day where i'll have to go "eh, you there, eh, you cant come along". or worse, where i'd end up taking someone along who then ends up having a not so pleasant experience/comments uttered aloud in their face. i've seen it happen in my previous troupe. (sniggering clients)

for students, the step from the "safe" festival environment to the commercial environment, well, they dont always understand the difference. but the clients responses and expectations are different. i try finding them "safe" gigs, but i cant always tell till we get there either.

my troupe just had their first experience of performing for the "uninterested dining audience". i think they still had fun, but also received a small shock. and i'm sure they'll encounter more like that. the ballgame changes and it's not for everyone (mentally, i mean).

anyway, most of the issues come from slowly moving from student troupe to some paid gigs, with the SAME people. sometimes i dream of starting an audition based full pro troupe, and that would be different issues again.

I know exactly what you mean, Artemisia! I'm not looking forward to the 'entertainment agent' aspect of the job!

I've gone over with my students the 'client expectations' part of being booked for pro gigs, and we've had the difficult discussion about appearance being part of professional entertainment. It helps that I'm a little older & heavier than my prime -- I can hold myself up as an example. There are gigs I don't accept because I know I'm not what they're looking for (21st birthday parties, for instance).

Still, it's going to hurt when it happens.

I'm keeping the student troupe running so I still have a safe, fun 'everyone gets to play and we dance for receptive audiences' avenue for everyone.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

anyway, most of the issues come from slowly moving from student troupe to some paid gigs, with the SAME people. sometimes i dream of starting an audition based full pro troupe, and that would be different issues again.

My idea is untested yet, but here's what I've done. Members of the student troupe who are interested in the pro troupe can ask me for consideration (I decided auditions are a charade, since I see these women dance all the time).

Everyone STAYS in the student troupe and it is unchanged. That's where we keep our group choreos polished.

But those members who ALSO qualify for dance company agree to extra training/skills requirements and will gather as needed (no charge to use the studio) to rehearse staging for Dance Company gigs and to discuss business matters.

*fingers crossed very tightly*

If anyone is interested in how I'm structuring it, you can download the info sheet at the bottom of this page: Lotus Arts Studio - Bellydance Program Levels Structure

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I've gone over with my students the 'client expectations' part of being booked for pro gigs, and we've had the difficult discussion about appearance being part of professional entertainment. It helps that I'm a little older & heavier than my prime -- I can hold myself up as an example. There are gigs I don't accept because I know I'm not what they're looking for (21st birthday parties, for instance).

I understand what you are saying and think it is important for anyone to be realistic of circumstances and respectful of their limitations, but this is sad. If Roger Daltrey can be in his mid-60s and still expect people to pay money for him to sing "I hope I die before I get old," why should we have to put up with this garbage? Why can't audiences understand that looking older than 25 shouldn't be the deciding factor in the quality of someone's entertaining skills?

Sorry, back to topic...

I've run a troupe since 1993. Before that I was in my teacher's professional troupe since early 80's. Before that I was in folk dance, modern dance troupes.
"Anyways" I love it! Very challenging from the "business end". PM me if you like.
Coupla things: *My market seems similar to yours. Marketing differs a lot depending on area. Mine is heavily word of mouth, thus I network and market my product almost constantly; I am always "on."
* Like professional actors, professional dancer is hard to achieve without devoting full time to dance; and having the kind of job (usually restaurants) to support your dance career. Most people simply do not have the time, energy, or resources to be able to devote so much time to rehearsal & practice, costuming, etc. How I divvy up the pay reflects this.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I understand what you are saying and think it is important for anyone to be realistic of circumstances and respectful of their limitations, but this is sad. If Roger Daltrey can be in his mid-60s and still expect people to pay money for him to sing "I hope I die before I get old," why should we have to put up with this garbage? Why can't audiences understand that looking older than 25 shouldn't be the deciding factor in the quality of someone's entertaining skills?

Sorry, back to topic...

If Roger Daltrey were a dancer, that would be a much more valid comparison. But still, I agree with you.

Within my little dance community, I'm able to create a lovely bubble of warmth and acceptance, where it really IS all about dance, musicality, and expression. It makes me ridiculously happy to be able to provide women with this wonderful safe environment.

But out in the Real World, where a narrow definition of feminine beauty affects ALL female entertainers -- and bellydancers are expected to be especially 'hot' -- I'm not able to protect them. In some cases, a dancer & I may choose to buck the system, but it needs to be a choice and they need to have their eyes wide open going into those situations. Sizism, racism, ageism, etc. ..cr.: I'm dreading that aspect, but at least I have a good enough relationship with these women that we can discuss painful topics honestly.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I understand what you are saying and think it is important for anyone to be realistic of circumstances and respectful of their limitations, but this is sad. If Roger Daltrey can be in his mid-60s and still expect people to pay money for him to sing "I hope I die before I get old," why should we have to put up with this garbage? Why can't audiences understand that looking older than 25 shouldn't be the deciding factor in the quality of someone's entertaining skills?

Sorry, back to topic...

I totally understand what you are saying and I don't disagree - but I will comment that Roger Daltry is super famous already; and became famous when he was young & cute!! Not sayin it's right or wrong, just what it is.
if he suddenly appeared as a new singer on the scene singing that, what would you think? Sure, if he had an awesome voice & good PR....maybe
Why are Bellydancers exempt from reality?

And yes, I do think we can overcome agism, beautism, raceism, etc. by putting out a great dance performance! But acknowledging it exists is the 1st step!

Rock & roll, in all its angry, transgressive glory, was never meant to be a pensioner's game. It was meant for the young. I'm not sure at what point society skidded into the idea that it was okay for some old coot to be wailing away like a teenager, but men are held to a different standard than women, and I suppose Daltrey is appealing more to fans who were young when he was than the current high-school and college demographics.

From our end, sometimes I think we reinforce the double standard. If we know someone is too (whatever) to fit the public's image, teachers hold back on putting them out there on GP gigs. We deprive ourselves of the moment when an audience could think beyond the stereotype...out of concern that the person with the nontraditional appearance might get hurt, fear that we'll lose the next job, concern that all of us will be laughed at. Maybe we should be less obsessed with buying into their hype and more focused on making sure that when we call something "professional," it represents the best we have to offer, even if that sometimes means exposing the GP to someone who doesn't exactly fit the mold. If we don't push back, society isn't going to do it for us. I say approach things on a case-by-case basis. If you have a student that you would be proud to having representing you for every other reason, give them the facts and let them participate, unless you have grounds to believe the customer has prioritized appearance over entertaining skills (and admittedly, many times they do).

I would not hold someone back on appearance issues (other than untidiness, crap costume, etc.)

if the dancing, posture, carriage, and stage presence were up to par; that is, ready for public performing.
I love to push back.
Just make sure the reality issue is addressed.
I'm talking about professional/public performing, not student showcases that is.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

From our end, sometimes I think we reinforce the double standard. If we know someone is too (whatever) to fit the public's image, teachers hold back on putting them out there on GP gigs. We deprive ourselves of the moment when an audience could think beyond the stereotype...out of concern that the person with the nontraditional appearance might get hurt, fear that we'll lose the next job, concern that all of us will be laughed at.

I don't. As I said, I am willing to challenge public assumptions, but I insist that the dancer walking into the situation KNOWS what she's walking into. I will not send unsuspecting dancers into painful situations just to make a point.

For instance, a party last weekend requested a second dancer. The woman doing the booking was a friend of the actual customer.. she said "This is really awkward for me, but I've been asked to make sure the second dancer is going to be as attractive as you are in your pictures. She said she doesn't want any old fat wrinkly dancers. *nervous laughter*"

(I'm old, fat AND wrinkly by some people's standards, but I wear a lot of makeup and move around really fast. LOL)

I suppose I could have refused the gig (but frankly I wouldn't work much if I never danced for people who don't assume the bellydancer they're hiring for Uncle Joe's birthday will be some kind of conventional pretty.) I suppose I could brought my oldest heaviest dancer in there just to make a point -- but that kind of behavior would put me out of business in a minute AND put my dancers in terrible situations.

I'm not sure what I"ll do, though, the day someone makes a racist request of me on the phone. It's inevitable in my location, and I think I'll react the same way I did when someone requested a fat funny dancer. Hang up.

I HAVE, however, stubbornly brought my entire group -- or whichever members I choose -- to any events that didnt' specify a particular type, and I give solos to the dancers who are most entertaining. In the case of older and heavier dancers, I get more positive feedback than negative in those situations. (negative feedback, interestingly, comes only from teenagers and other older, heavy women).

We should maybe spin this off, since the topic has now completely changed and I'm not getting any replies to my initial request for help any more.

exactly, i have and have had a couple of dancers with a couple years more that i gladly give and gave gigs too, as i KNOW they'll deliver in a way some of my younger girls cant yet...!
and i have students who'll tell me they are too (something), and i need to tell em nope, you look good to me and you're coming along!

but in general, yes, i've been in a troupe, a decade ago, where in the middle of the gig, somebody in the audience shouted "there's the (...) one again". it was horrible. i'd kinda want to spare "my girls" that experience.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

From our end, sometimes I think we reinforce the double standard. If we know someone is too (whatever) to fit the public's image, teachers hold back on putting them out there on GP gigs. We deprive ourselves of the moment when an audience could think beyond the stereotype...out of concern that the person with the nontraditional appearance might get hurt, fear that we'll lose the next job, concern that all of us will be laughed at. Maybe we should be less obsessed with buying into their hype and more focused on making sure that when we call something "professional," it represents the best we have to offer, even if that sometimes means exposing the GP to someone who doesn't exactly fit the mold. If we don't push back, society isn't going to do it for us. I say approach things on a case-by-case basis. If you have a student that you would be proud to having representing you for every other reason, give them the facts and let them participate, unless you have grounds to believe the customer has prioritized appearance over entertaining skills (and admittedly, many times they do).

About the appearance/age issue for performances:

I think there needs to be a clear understanding between doing student shows/belly dance festivals and paid performances.

For student shows and festivals, I'll all for everyone performing. These are community events where we should be encouraging each other.

However, for a paid show, you are no longer within the confines of the supportive belly dance community, and have to deal with the real world. When someone is paying top dollar for belly dancers, they have expectations of what they will be getting, and unfortunately physical attractiveness is a large part of what they expect a "belly dancer" to be. The sad truth is if you want to keep getting paid jobs, the appearance of your dancers is going to play a role, and if someone is paying you for a service, your job is to provide them with what they want, not with what you think they should want. They're coming to you for a belly dance show, not a lesson in tolerance. Yes, its shallow, but that's the reality.

I have a professional troupe in Vegas, and let me tell you, looks are a huge factor, there are tons of beautiful people in Las Vegas, and my clients want to see pictures of all my dancers they hire. There are many free lance jazz, modern, showgirl type dancers, and in their discipline you have to stay in shape to work, so they don't understand or accept the "Belly Dancers are voluptuous "concept, we aren't in Egypt, and so American standards apply to us dancing in the US, whether we like it or not. Different regions and venue's of course will vary, but in Vegas, they are pretty strict!

I've also made it clear to my dancers, that anyone who doesn't keep up on their choreo's, technique, etc will not be booked as often as the ones who do. We are hired through agencies, hotels, and ME weddings, as well as when I lecture at Universities, they will often bring in at least part of my dance company to perform the various dances I'm lecturing on, usually folklore, evolving into oriental.
As for pricing, I charge what I would normally as a soloist. I often get the question, "if I hire more dancers it's cheaper right, you give a discount" Uh, no...actually it's more expensive, this isn't Sam's Club, where buying in bulk saves you money,m::, It means more work for me, to organize a choreographed show, matching costumes etc. So price it as you would for a solo gig. Usually they pay it, but go with less dancers than they originally wanted, which is fine. I'm not going to send my girls out and pay them crap, I'd rather send out fewer, and have them paid well. If you want to email me, I'll send you my price sheet.

You will need a press pack of: troupe photo's, a demo video, your bio, and a group bio of what they will offer the client.
As for who to market to, any talent booking agent, ME groups, the Lebanese American club, etc. Wedding planners, party planners, and if you have any hotel/banquet facilities in your area send them a press pack too. You can be hired by women's division of the chamber of commerce, political groups etc.

aradia, i've send you a pm on facebook!

Originally Posted by Aradia

..American standards apply to us dancing in the US, whether we like it or not. Different regions and venues of course will vary, but in Vegas, they are pretty strict!.

Our non-American customers are more demanding than our American customers. The American customers are happy with the website and phone calls; the foreign contingent wants hands-on reassurance. They don't really trust pix and videos. If they like what they see on the web site, they then want to see what the dancers REALLY look like, examine the costume choices, and see a sample dance or two to make sure the dancers really can keep the swords on their heads and play zills! Our office has two walls of costumes, double decker, plus a rolling rack, and we keep it organized at all times because we never know when a potential customer will show up. The Indian clients tend to be the most demanding, and they often insist on a (paid) dress rehearsal. Which gives you an idea of how seriously they take the entertainment.

Originally Posted by LiesaB.

And yes, I do think we can overcome agism, beautism, raceism, etc. by putting out a great dance performance! But acknowledging it exists is the 1st step!

"Beautism" - good word!

Wow, I lost track of this thread during Bhuz's makeover.

Thank you all again.

Aradia, I just saw your helpful posts. We're in our early stages, working on group photos and a good demo video now.

I'm really enjoying being able to offer this new challenge to those of my dancers who want it, and so far the compromise of maintaining the student troupe, plus the Silver Sirens performance group, is making everyone happy. There are opportunities to perform at all levels, and all the groups work hard to reach their fullest potential (though their potential varies).

Contrary to the direction this thread took, the pro troupe isn't really about appearance (though individual gigs may be). It's about high standards for dance and all the dancers in the group are really excited to see what they can achieve.

thanks again for all your help!