Thread: considering paying jobs, how does it all work?

Hi i'm a student of bellydance and recently starting performing at showcases and haflas et cetera and have started recieving requests to do weddings, birthday parties, and one or two corporate event but haven't pursued them and politely declined.

While i want to get more experience and polish my style i am considering paying jobs as a side line in the future to my full time profression, i've friends who are professional bellydancers and asked about in terms how much to charge for how long time. but found some answers quite varied and unconclusive.

this has more than likely been addressed a thousand times in the history of Bhuz but if anyone has links or advice with regard to performing at venues from birthday parties to corporate events what the going rates are and other things like do i bring my own speaker box, are there things i should watch out for, should i set up a paypal account, how long should i dance for et cetera.

manythanks for the time
michael.

Samira has some UK rates at
Belly Dancer Rates

She also has a page on professionalism, which includes a lot of links to articles on Shira's site, which saves me copying and pasting links from Shira.com
Performing and Professionalism

The most important thing, IMO, is to figure out how much it costs you to perform and how much profit you are making and adjust accordingly. Costumes get damaged, swords get stolen, cars need maintenance, boom boxes get dropped, etc. You spend time planning, advertising, burning music CDs, etc. It all needs to be factored in... maybe not all at once, successfully, but keep at it.

Michael, you need to take advice from your teacher. You also need a LOT more experience before you start to think about performing professionally.

thankyou to maurazebra i've checked out the links and thats pretty everything i need to know. bea, fairy godmother of bellydance, thanks for your advice luckily i do not suffer from illusions but i am looking to educate myself however.

I think advice from your teacher is a good idea, if only because the rates and requirements (like how many props you're supposed to dance with) may be different there than other places. It also signals your teacher that you're willing to take it to the proverbial next level, and if you're in private lessons, s/he can work with you to ensure that you are truly professional caliber for gigs.

Get guidance from your teacher.

One year into studies is fairly soon to start performing professionally. There are those who have what it takes to start that early, but they are not the overwhelming number of first year students.

Furthermore, are there any male pro dancers in your area to get guidance from? One thing I worry is that the reaction and support that a majority female dance community gives the rare male dancer is often worlds away from how a more GP oriented gathering at celebrations, weddings, etc is going to receive you.

The transition from performing to dance-crowd to GP is never easy for any dancer...and male performers have may potentially negative (and sometimes hostile) issues to contend with.

I think you are wise to ask these questions before you start. Sometimes we just get sucked into these things and and are a little naive as to what it actually entails. I know I was, and learned a lot very quickly from sheer experience. It would have helped if I had someone to guide me but my teacher didn't really do paid work, more student recitals and charity, which are not the same thing at all. Get advice from your teacher, who I know really is a pro.

Then, if you decide to take it further, start very small and with friendly venues, i.e. parties where you know the audience type. It can be a bit soul destroying to find out that not everyone thinks about oriental dance in the same way as you might.

If you can get your teacher or another established dancer to take you along to some of their gigs to suss things out it will really help too. Then you will have a realistic idea of what it all actually entails. A lot of it is not glamorous, damn hard work, and lots of broom cupboards to change in (oh and did I mention the poor pay?!) ..l;,

Originally Posted by ozma

Get guidance from your teacher.

One year into studies is fairly soon to start performing professionally. There are those who have what it takes to start that early, but they are not the overwhelming number of first year students.

Furthermore, are there any male pro dancers in your area to get guidance from? One thing I worry is that the reaction and support that a majority female dance community gives the rare male dancer is often worlds away from how a more GP oriented gathering at celebrations, weddings, etc is going to receive you.

The transition from performing to dance-crowd to GP is never easy for any dancer...and male performers have may potentially negative (and sometimes hostile) issues to contend with.

Absolutely agree, take care

Originally Posted by beafarhana

Michael, you need to take advice from your teacher. You also need a LOT more experience before you start to think about performing professionally.

While he might need more experience before he starts performing professionally, it's never too early to start thinking about it and researching fees, etiquette, and other aspects of the business of belly dance.

Perhaps the reason so many "professional" belly dancers lack professionalism is because they didn't start *thinking* about how to *be* a professional until they actually started doing paid gigs.

I think Michael is doing a great thing by asking these questions, and it does him no good to tell him he shouldn't even be asking them.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

While he might need more experience before he starts performing professionally, it's never too early to start thinking about it and researching fees, etiquette, and other aspects of the business of belly dance.

Perhaps the reason so many "professional" belly dancers lack professionalism is because they didn't start *thinking* about how to *be* a professional until they actually started doing paid gigs.

I think Michael is doing a great thing by asking these questions, and it does him no good to tell him he shouldn't even be asking them.

thankyou very much yameyameyame, i do think it is important to inform myself i don't plan to start doing jobs till a year or so, right now i'm dancing at haflas and got a recent residency with an bellydancers event in london.

all the advice here has been friendly even if alittle over catious but i can see how some people can go into it not realising what they're getting themselves into nor having the right experience and i'm aware of that.

the offers that i've had have been from people i am on familiar terms with but had declined anyway as i myself do feel i am not ready for it but i still think its important to inform myself since its been asked afew times.

my teacher is a guy, i've done 121 tuition with him and go to his drop classes, he performed in the Reda Troupe, i've been to a few venues where i've seen other students of the class doing jobs and understand the level one must accomplish to pull it off properly.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

...and it does him no good to tell him he shouldn't even be asking them.

Did someone say that? If so, I missed it.

Originally Posted by beafarhana

Michael, you need to take advice from your teacher. You also need a LOT more experience before you start to think about performing professionally.

Originally Posted by mikhailsharqi

bea, fairy godmother of bellydance, thanks for your advice luckily i do not suffer from illusions but i am looking to educate myself however.

I appreciate you're not thinking of taking any paid work right now, but the fact that you're giving yourself a timescale to do so, does seem like you are definitely planning this, and I think you've got to consider what your realistic priorities as to what you need to learn about should be. I'm PMing you to take this off-board.

And quit the snidey comments. It's not becoming.

Originally Posted by beafarhana

You also need a LOT more experience before you start to think about performing professionally.

This is something that would have been more civil to PM as well, IMO.

Yame, Maura, neither one of you is my mother.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

This is something that would have been more civil to PM as well, IMO.

Maura, you would give false hopes to a young dancer you have not even seen dance as yet? This type of response has often shown up on these boards for dancers who are still at the beginning.

Over and over on bhuz, the pros have said, "it makes us crazy when dancers go pro too soon, they do not yet have the repertoire and polish to charge for their dancing." And asking about pricing on an international board could throw you off -- there is a huge difference in pricing between metro areas just in the US. To tell a dancer new to dance "wait, get more experience, talk to your teacher" is exactly the thing to say.

Originally Posted by beafarhana

Yame, Maura, neither one of you is my mother.

So, let me get this straight: you are entitled to tell someone they are not allowed to even think about performing professionally, and I'm the one who's inappropriately acting like someone's mother?

Originally Posted by mikhailsharqi

thankyou very much yameyameyame, i do think it is important to inform myself i don't plan to start doing jobs till a year or so, right now i'm dancing at haflas and got a recent residency with an bellydancers event in london.

all the advice here has been friendly even if alittle over catious but i can see how some people can go into it not realising what they're getting themselves into nor having the right experience and i'm aware of that.

the offers that i've had have been from people i am on familiar terms with but had declined anyway as i myself do feel i am not ready for it but i still think its important to inform myself since its been asked afew times.

my teacher is a guy, i've done 121 tuition with him and go to his drop classes, he performed in the Reda Troupe, i've been to a few venues where i've seen other students of the class doing jobs and understand the level one must accomplish to pull it off properly.

I'd echo Bea, talk to your teacher. If your teacher is a pro in your area, you have the answers at your fingertips, why go on an international board to ask the questions? I would have no idea what they charge in your neck of the woods and would have no way to answer your questions.

That is why people respond to these questions in this way, it's only logical.

I also echo Ozma, I've seen some pretty crappy dancing (and did it myself) from people who were not ready to perform in public.

Again, the person who is most familiar with your dancing would be your teacher and he should be able to steer you accordingly.

Originally Posted by tigerb

Over and over on bhuz, the pros have said, "it makes us crazy when dancers go pro too soon, they do not yet have the repertoire and polish to charge for their dancing." And asking about pricing on an international board could throw you off -- there is a huge difference in pricing between metro areas just in the US. To tell a dancer new to dance "wait, get more experience, talk to your teacher" is exactly the thing to say.

I think it's perfectly fine to tell him he is not ready to perform professionally yet, if you've seen him perform.

But he has the right to ask how to become ready for it.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

I think it's perfectly fine to tell him he is not ready to perform professionally yet, if you've seen him perform.

But he has the right to ask how to become ready for it.

I agree. If our own teachers are the only source from which we gather information, what is the purpose of discussion on Bhuz?

Originally Posted by carpediem

I agree. If our own teachers are the only source from which we gather information, what is the purpose of discussion on Bhuz?

Exactly.

Originally Posted by carpediem

I agree. If our own teachers are the only source from which we gather information, what is the purpose of discussion on Bhuz?

I didn't get the feeling that anyone was suggesting that the only advice he should have should come from his own teacher. It sounds like people are advising him to start by asking the person who is most familiar with his dancing (his teacher) to give him tips on how he should work towards being a professional dancer. Talking to the teacher isn't the last step in the process, but it can make the whole journey easier if it is the first step.

Michael, it sounds like your teacher is an incredible resource for you. As a male dancer in your area, he will have a much better idea of what it takes to go pro as a man in that market than any of us could give you. Definitely read everything you can find on what makes a professional dancer, but also talk with your teacher to take advantage of the awesome resources at hand. Between the rest of the internet, Bhuz, your fellow dancers, and your teacher, you have a fantastic opportunity to be well-prepared when you do decide to go pro.

Originally Posted by carpediem

I agree. If our own teachers are the only source from which we gather information, what is the purpose of discussion on Bhuz?

Who said this? If I ask someone from California what should I charge, will they be able to answer this for my area? No, I need to discuss this with the dancers in MY area.

It's not a global response (my fly is down, what should I do?!?! ask your teacher!), it's to this specific question.

I would ask *my* teacher about *my* skills, no one else is qualified to judge that without having seen me dance.

And to be fair, yes you can put it up on youtube, but there are so many intangibles to performing that a *live* review is the best possible feedback.

Dondi is a world class dancer. I have yet to see a performance of hers on dvd that resonates with *me* but clearly she has skills and talent that come across live that are lacking in two dimensional.

Or, a closer to home example, on bhuz people post "you look great!" all the time, even if the costume is not it's most flattering (there are some pretty horrible pics of me in a costume that I'm selling) are they lying? Probably not, but they ARE being kind.

hi everyone i've read your responses and discussions amongst eachother, and thanks for your feedback its been very helpful. :) :) :)

Originally Posted by maurazebra

This is something that would have been more civil to PM as well, IMO.

hi bea your message is rather long so i've yet to read it all, but my remark honestly wasn't snide, sincerely meant it using the term as an indearment to the advice you gave me. and i thinks its unfortunate you think that. :(

Originally Posted by beafarhana

I appreciate you're not thinking of taking any paid work right now, but the fact that you're giving yourself a timescale to do so, does seem like you are definitely planning this, and I think you've got to consider what your realistic priorities as to what you need to learn about should be. I'm PMing you to take this off-board.

And quit the snidey comments. It's not becoming.

hi bea your message is rather long so i've yet to read it all, but my remark honestly wasn't snide, sincerely meant it using the term as an indearment to the advice you gave me. and i thinks its unfortunate you think that. :(

Originally Posted by mahsati

I didn't get the feeling that anyone was suggesting that the only advice he should have should come from his own teacher. It sounds like people are advising him to start by asking the person who is most familiar with his dancing (his teacher) to give him tips on how he should work towards being a professional dancer. Talking to the teacher isn't the last step in the process, but it can make the whole journey easier if it is the first step.

Michael, it sounds like your teacher is an incredible resource for you. As a male dancer in your area, he will have a much better idea of what it takes to go pro as a man in that market than any of us could give you. Definitely read everything you can find on what makes a professional dancer, but also talk with your teacher to take advantage of the awesome resources at hand. Between the rest of the internet, Bhuz, your fellow dancers, and your teacher, you have a fantastic opportunity to be well-prepared when you do decide to go pro.

THIS is what I was trying to say! You're so eloquent, Mahsati.

Originally Posted by kina

THIS is what I was trying to say! You're so eloquent, Mahsati.

LOL Thanks! I try to have a moment of clarity now and then once I've had plenty of coffee

Originally Posted by mikhailsharqi

.... i don't plan to start doing jobs till a year or so, right now i'm dancing at haflas and got a recent residency with an bellydancers event in london. ......

i started performing, at my trusted teacher's urging, after a little more than 3 years (not including student shows, or the time i spent "dabbling") and i feel like it was too soon for me. if for no other reasons than because im a perfectionist and was not ready for the emotional aspects of performing (including my own critical reactions, beyond those of an audience)
as Satin would say, your mileage may vary but i would suggest not putting a time to start on yourself, and not rushing towards it.
some have already said along these lines but: i would deff. trust your teacher over your friend's opinion of your readiness. sometimes friends/family are just excited to see someone they know doing something so cool, or something that makes us so happy, that they give rave reviews without considering anything else, which can set you up to be knocked down. also they may or may not know much about dance/be able to evaluate what they see. again, these are generalities and may or maynot apply to your situation, having not seen you dance and not knowing the people who have asked to hire you ^_~

in the mean time, keep learning and asking ^_^ in addition to the running-a-business aspects and behaving like a polite adult/professionally, there's things like
how to pick music for each audience/event (new thread about that was posted recently)
critically and honestly examining your motivations for performing (some of the comments in the "rethinking how we introduce performance" thread might be insightful to this end, particularly Shira's)
keeping yourself feeling inspired and dealing with creative highs and lows(something i didn't even experience within my first year, much less figure out how to deal with)
being able to create your own dance-and have it look good- which includes improvising, drawing the elements and principles of design into your choreography/dance (easier said than done, eh? ^_~), etc
handling mistakes gracefully
developing your personality in dance/ unique style (as opposed to carbon copy of your teacher)
handling weird audience members gracefully (what does it mean when an Iraqi in a cowboy-hat tries to tell you his address? ..l;,..l;,)
and the list goes on.....

for me, at one year i didn't know what i didn't know. so it's great to be asking these things, but be prepared to find out that performing professionally is, possibly, farther away than you're currently projecting.
happy hips!

Originally Posted by raqFariha

i started performing, at my trusted teacher's urging, after a little more than 3 years (not including student shows, or the time i spent "dabbling") and i feel like it was too soon for me. if for no other reasons than because im a perfectionist and was not ready for the emotional aspects of performing (including my own critical reactions, beyond those of an audience)
as Satin would say, your mileage may vary but i would suggest not putting a time to start on yourself, and not rushing towards it.
some have already said along these lines but: i would deff. trust your teacher over your friend's opinion of your readiness. sometimes friends/family are just excited to see someone they know doing something so cool, or something that makes us so happy, that they give rave reviews without considering anything else, which can set you up to be knocked down. also they may or may not know much about dance/be able to evaluate what they see. again, these are generalities and may or maynot apply to your situation, having not seen you dance and not knowing the people who have asked to hire you ^_~

in the mean time, keep learning and asking ^_^ in addition to the running-a-business aspects and behaving like a polite adult/professionally, there's things like
how to pick music for each audience/event (new thread about that was posted recently)
critically and honestly examining your motivations for performing (some of the comments in the "rethinking how we introduce performance" thread might be insightful to this end, particularly Shira's)
keeping yourself feeling inspired and dealing with creative highs and lows(something i didn't even experience within my first year, much less figure out how to deal with)
being able to create your own dance-and have it look good- which includes improvising, drawing the elements and principles of design into your choreography/dance (easier said than done, eh? ^_~), etc
handling mistakes gracefully
developing your personality in dance/ unique style (as opposed to carbon copy of your teacher)
handling weird audience members gracefully (what does it mean when an Iraqi in a cowboy-hat tries to tell you his address? ..l;,..l;,)
and the list goes on.....

for me, at one year i didn't know what i didn't know. so it's great to be asking these things, but be prepared to find out that performing professionally is, possibly, farther away than you're currently projecting.
happy hips!

thanks for the advice it really is very constructive and helpful.

Another thing to consider is seeing if you can be a volunteer assistant for your teacher on the business side of things. I just started helping a local teacher in my area with her events, and I've been learning some very useful business aspects already. I would like to, when I'm ready, have the same kind of assistantship for learning about gigs.