Thread: Referral Rates and keeping a business sense despite passion for dance

I have a different personal situation that I would love buzzers advice on. I teach at a studio owned by another bellydancer in my community. Recently, I came in to teach a class and the studio owner told me she had a gig for me because she is going out of town. She gave me the general info, and that she quoted the client $150. I typically change $250 dollars (Short performance and mini class), but since it was on a Wed night and I am horrible negating prices, I called the client and took the gig. I did everything I typically did before a gig, worked out a special song request and took the typical day of phone calls working out last minute details. I should also stipulate that the studio owner is my friend, but never mentored me or helped me launched my dance career. I a perfectly capable of getting gigs on my own.

A week or so after the gig the studio owner mentioned to me that she would like a referral fee. I was surprised, (I refer clients to other dancers, but never to her yet, no charge). I thought in my head I guess that’s fair, $20-30 is fine. Then, the studio owners husband takes be aside (he has been dumping money into advertising for her) and asks that he get a %50 referral fee because he has spent over $5,000 on advertising. At this point I start to get mad… I never would have left my house for a $75 gig. He responds to that statement by telling me I should lower my prices then I would get more gigs and make more money. At that point I got really mad and pretty much walked right out of her studio after cutting them a $75 check. Thinking back, I am ashamed that I did not keep my cool, negotiated with logic and business like arguments. I know it’s because my pride was hurt at the implication that my dancing was only worth $75.

This situation leaves me wondering 2 things
1. How do we keep a cool head on our shoulders and a calculating business sense when we are involved in an art form that is (for me at least) a personal passion and tied to pride?
2. What do you typically charge when referring a friend to a gig?

We don't do referral fees here, tho I don't have a problem with the practice in general. What I do have a problem with is this specific situation. You didn't *need* the gig, but covered for a friend because she would be out of town. No mention of a referral fee was made before hand, and I think it is inappropriate to ask for one after the fact. Saying "I usually charge a referral fee, would you like me to keep referring gigs to you under these conditions" would have been appropiate, but this is ridiculous. The husband getting in on the act was *completely* inappropriate. Their advertising doesn't do jack for your business- they haven't been advertising *you.* I would have walked out without paying anything & talked to your friend privately later.

I do hope you address this with your friend at some point, but I am having a hard time thinking of a diplomatic way to do it. Next time you step in for someone, definitely make sure you know the terms clearly before hand! (lesson I admit I am still learning!)

I had my mom role play with me for client negotiations, because I am a total push over otherwise! maybe it's time for a round of "these are my fees & I'm sticking to 'em" with your 'drama coach.'

I have never heard of a referral fee outside of professional booking agencies. In my area dancers sub for eachother all the time and no one has ever asked me to pay them for filling in on a gig for them. Additionally dancers who don't live in the area but get calls for my locale often send the client my way, once again no one has asked for a cut of my price.

In my opinion you got a raw deal in this situation. If the woman who referred you asks you to go on another gig for her I would upfront let her know that you can "HELP HER OUT" but you will not be paying her to fill her slot.

First of all, 50% for a 'referral' fee is way to high and if she was planning to take this fee she should have told you before the gig and not after. It makes total sense that $75 for a private gig is not even worth your fake eyelashes, gas and time invested on the show.

I do invest significantly on advertising and I also run a company so I have to collect fees. I personally transfer my gigs to other dancers when I am overbooked and I generally take about $25 dollars, but that still leaves the dancer with most of the pay because she is providing costuming, props, preparation, her own skills and talent and everything that involves being a professional.

Take this as a learning experience but be firm about how you want to work with this person in the future. If you are really upset about it don't take her offers, you can nicely say you are already booked or out of town, or honestly tell her how much you expect to get paid for your services.

You can also tell her that your rate is generally $250 and that you would expect her to book you at that rate. I would say a $25-$50 booking fee would be fair for her to keep and you should be able to come out with at least $200.

Hope this helps =)

This is probably one of those sucky lessons. It's always best to negotiate these details ahead of time.

Try to use this opportunity to have a conversation. I would probably take your friend to coffee and tell her that while this recent situation is now water under the bridge, that in the future you charge $250 for the gig and you'll give her a XX% referral fee, period. And that if she doesn't want to refer gigs to you based on those terms you totally understand.

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

This is probably one of those sucky lessons. It's always best to negotiate these details ahead of time.

Try to use this opportunity to have a conversation. I would probably take your friend to coffee and tell her that while this recent situation is now water under the bridge, that in the future you charge $250 for the gig and you'll give her a XX% referral fee, period. And that if she doesn't want to refer gigs to you based on those terms you totally understand.

It sounds like she didn't think this through either. I'm guessing that she was relieved to get you to fill in. Then her husband tells her she should ask for a referral fee and tells her what he thinks it should be. She gives in a bit, enough to tell you about the referral fee, but is too chicken to tell you how much. He hits you with the bad news. If you didn't see it coming it probably is because it wasn't coming until after the gig :)

I DON'T like it when people compromise the power of their word with this kind of after-thought. By all means have coffee with her as per Samira's advice, and establish an arms-length business relationship, but aren't you also curious to know at what point they decided you owed them a service fee? If this was a 'real' business transaction, what they did would be considered illegal.

I've only had to take fees with party planners ( and it's usually built in to what they charge so I still get my rate), gigmasters which has a booking fee and once when i was a baby dancer and I wasn't the one getting all the details together. I think it should have been presented to you up front. It is hard not to cave or give in in that type of situation. You just have to keep repeating to yourself, I AM worth more, I am NOT crazy for charging as much as I do, no matter what their response is.

I have had other dancers ask a referral or booking fee when asking me to sub for a private party gig (never for a restaurant/nightclub). Depending on how much the rate was, it has been anywhere from $25-$100, but my take of the pay is never less than $200-$250. I think it is fair if they are doing all the negotiating/booking work and as long as I get a fair rate for myself as well, it is fine. I have never done this myself, but I have never subbed an already booked private gig out or gone through the whole booking process for another dancer. So far, if I have not been able to take a gig myself, I just pass on phone number/website info as a referral.

I have no advice. I feel angry for you. I don't think I could have kept my cool in a situation like that.

Thanks everyone.
I appreciate your comments. It make me feel better about the whole situation.

So let me see if I understand.....your friend could not do a gig, and if you didn't do it, the client would likely have just gone out and found someone else on their own, right? Your friend does not advertise for you, and was not involved in the booking process once she passed along your info, right? So you should absolutely NOT have had to pay her anything. And even if you felt ok with a small fee, 50% is ridiculous. Absurd.

If i cannot do a gig myself, I will book one of my dancers. In this situation, I take 15% from the gig price because (1) I maintain a company website and incur costs for that and for my advertising expenses and (2) I do all of the booking, contract signing, deposit taking, etc and all the dancer has to do is call the client to confirm the day before the event. And even with all that, I still only take 15%, and that is off of their base fee - if they get travel, I don't include that in my 15%.

If none of my dancers can do the gig, it is a LOST BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY for me. So, I don't get any money because I'm not doing business in any capacity. I will give them names of dancers I know, but of course I am not charging a referral fee for them because the client could have just as easily found another dancer on his/her own.

I think not "having the guts" to negotiate is a common problem in our area. Some of us are business tycoons during the day but most of us aren't. It is really hard to keep your wits about you and negotiate a fair price when you are happy to get out and dance so I feel for you there. Just stay strong and remember all of us get in that situation.

As far as the referral fee, I have never heard of one outside of professional booking agencies. A dance friend and I are constantly referring gigs to each other, no one has ever considered asking a referral fee. And usually we refer because one is out of town, etc. We consider it a favor because the clients would otherwise hire a 6 week wonder hack.
Also, when I do refer a client to her I always say, "I cannot tell you what her fee will be because many factors affect the price." If I quote someone for two dancers I likewise say, "I have to check and see who is available and what they would charge for this type of gig"

You did your friend a favor and it is shame that they did not see it this way.

It is pretty common in my area to pay other dancers for gig referrals (if it isn't a substitution case). They are usually studio owners who don't perform any more so they collect all the gig information and start calling their lists of working dancers. Usually before the gig is taken, the booking fee is discussed and usually 10% or $25 for the time the dancer spent on the phone arranging the show/advertising/etc.

I think that is a fair request, but should be brought up before referring the gig, not after.

Don't beat yourself up about it. Don't do business with her any more or at least have a negotiation for the next time.

Sucks, but now you know and (can't resist) Knowing is half the battle!

That they pulled all this AFTER the fact was completely unprofessional. A 50% referral fee is preposterous.
If I can't do a private party I am just happy to be able to refer the client to pro level dancers who will be a good fit for their party. No referral fee involved. *I* am the one who can't make it- and *I* am advertising anyway. What the husband decided on his own to spend on THEIR advertising has NOTHING to do with the fact that you covered this gig. He has the choice to make that business expense. Ones advertising budget should make sense for one's own earned income as a result. Their rationalizations are less than sound and simply not business community friendly. Seriously, will you refer to them now? I don't think so. If she can't do another gig, will you cover it? No. They've just ruined a professional relationship.
Party planners and talent agencies DO charge a fee- and they do all the arranging, so it makes sense. BUT they rarely charge more than $25-$50 and I STILL always make my minimum ($250 if I work w them regularly).
It is a professional courtesy for working dancers to refer to one another. It all comes back around. That's how I was "raised" anyway.

Ridiculous. If I get a gig through my studio, director gets 10%. If I sell wares in her studio, also 10% commission.