Thread: Hire a bellydancer - how to run an agency

hello

i'm getting more gig requests (for one or more dancers) than i can and want to handle. so far between me and Aurea, we had no money discussions or anything, and just shared gigs in a very informal way (you free this weekend, or shall i take it, kind of thing). since we are growing and including more dancers, i want to kind of formalise all of this a little bit more, to ensure my dance world stays drama free.

some questions:

do i charge commission? how much commission to charge? i realise that i dont want to do all this work anymore (being on the phone 24/7 (waves to tracey, yes darling you were right and i was wrong), and not get compensated for it. then i would be better of just saying: no i'm not available and hang up the phone.

any rules? i thought of a few
- dancers do not hand out their own businesscards or phone numbers
- i have to pre-approve all new costumes
- no "experiments" in dance/music/costuming unless preapproved as well
- calling me whenever wherever when there is a problem you are not sure how to fix
- i dont mind of you f*ck something up, happens to the best of us, but i do mind when it happens behind my back and i find out about it some other way. ask for help when you need it..

more?

thanks
Artemisia

(if anyone has an agency and would not mind sharing details with me, but not with the world, please email me at hannelore dot vandebroek at gmail dot com)

My first teacher did all the negotiations for us. If it was a one-off gig she took about $100 from every gig (so if it was a $300 gig I got $200 and she got $100) that was over $200. Not sure what she would've done for the cheaper ones.

that feels like a lot to be taken out. that's a third.
i was thinking more along the lines of 15 %. and yes, i would then hande everything, all the party details.

when i worked with an agency myself they took off 50€. but those were pretty well paying gigs as well. ours often might be more the bellygram type.

Originally Posted by eshe

My first teacher did all the negotiations for us. If it was a one-off gig she took about $100 from every gig (so if it was a $300 gig I got $200 and she got $100) that was over $200. Not sure what she would've done for the cheaper ones.

I would look up what are standard "agent" fees in your area and use that as a guidleline to charge. Figure out your overhead in terms of your advertising rates, what does your website cost? what does your phone bill amount to? add that to agent fees, or figure them into them as the standard.

I find that if you can explain why you charge a certain amount, people are much more comfortable paying it (or having it taken off the top) than if you randomly announce that you are deducting $$$.

have a meeting with the dancers that you intend to include, go over ethical standards and have them sign an agreement where all this is spelled out, including what you intend to do if someone breaks the agreeement. For example, new costuming. Explain why you have the rule and what is the philosophy behind it. Your name is on the line, and your reputation, that's what you are looking to protect. What are the parameters for "rule breaking" is it different for someone who buys an ebay special, or custom orders a bella? Why? can they email you a picture of the costume if they can't come show you? should the emailed picture be with the costume on?

you won't be able to answer every question, but it helps to try to anticipate what they might be asking. If they come up with something that really stumps you, honestly tell them you need to think about that, but in the meantime, what do they suggest?

just a few thoughts from the top of my head :-)

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

do i charge commission? how much commission to charge? i realise that i dont want to do all this work anymore (being on the phone 24/7 (waves at tracey, yes darling you were right and i was wrong), and not get compensated for it.

I think a commission is reasonable, although I don't know what amount would be.

It does sound, to me, like you're looking for a significant amount of oversight, perhaps even control, over the dancers. I think you'll find that a headache in the long run, although I'd love to find out I'm wrong -- I'm basing this on what friends who run dance troupes, and who do similar "farming out" of gigs, tell me.
I think the big question in my mind would be, "how do you plan to implement and keep oversight in this?" A carefully laid-out plan now, with precise details as to the kinds of oversight you wish to implement, would go far. The list you have here is a good start, and I'm sure you have more planned behind the scenes.
Some things to write up include:

• A code of conduct with both an "overall philosophy", and concrete acts that break that code. For example, dancers who allow tips in their bras might be something you disallow
• Show/give examples of appropriate dress, so there's no confusion about what styles work for your gigs; this might work better than pre-approvals of costumes
• Same as above for music; give examples of musical types you think are appropriate, and be willing to say things like "no music from Genres like Rock, Techno, Country..."
• Clear directions as to how to contact you if there's an issue, and examples of the types of issues you require contact for
• Dancers working private gigs in non-public spaces provide a partner, and/or call in when done

I know a lot of dancers who've hard troubles on either side of such deals, and a lot of it comes down to communication, moreso than any detail of the deal thereof. It's better to write too much...
...but it's important to have the dancers, esp. anyone new who comes in without knowing you, know you have their back. If you're going to ask a great deal of them, it's fair that they get much from you. A fair split of proceeds, of course, yet also correct directions, reasonable vetting of the people hiring them, and other factors. These should also be part of the deal.
You must ensure that the dancers not only understand this, but sign contracts to this effect. Written, legal contracts are your protection against all sorts of things; far from perfect, but still useful.

Does that help?

I just ran into a contact of mine. She said she is starting up a singing telegram business in our area. She said she would charge the standard going rate in our area of $175. But then she threw in that she would take 50%. I am thinking..that's not worth me even painting my toes! What other commission rates are people running up against for these types of gigs?

Nilaja

These are good questions artemisia...am going to answer from the perspective of a dancer who gets work via an agent (waves to tracey!)

Of your suggestions, the only ones that make me feel uncomfortable are the costuming and 'experiment' ones.

- I have no idea how you're going to police costuming - and I think that this requirement is going to generate WAY more headache than you want. It might be better if you only approach dancers that you know understand costuming requirements / etc in the first place. Or have a gentle chat with them so that they understand. I, as a dancer, would be irritated by someone always wanting to make sure my costumes were up to scratch.

- As for experimentation...I think you will have to spell this out more (as asim1 pointed out). Again, as a dancer, I would appreciate hints on appropriate music, but would resent being told outright that I can't do this or that.

Many of the things in your list relate to trust issues (how can I trust a dancer to wear an appropriate costume? how can I trust a dancer not to 'experiment'? How can I trust a dancer not to give out their phone no?). I think the answer is to make sure that you work with dancers you already know you CAN trust, and keep checking out the newbies on your local scene. Of course, there are going to be people who will let you down (deliberately or because of circumstance) and I guess this comes with the territory...

OT: asim1 - why would you disallow dancers who take tips in their bra? There is a world of difference between taking a tip elegantly under where the strap crosses the shoulder and letting someone stick their sweaty hands into your cleavage (IMNSHO!)

so far i've found, when it's %, ranging between 10 and 25%. entertainment agency's seem to aks me what MY price is, than tack on a fixed amount and charge that to the customer (somewhere between 50 and 100E). i wont have that situation as i'd be telling the client right away what the total price would be.

Originally Posted by asim1

everyting
Does that help?

yes, very. thank you. i'm not quite decided yet how much "control" i want. i'm just thinking up possible issues (costuming, music choices, not calling me when there's a problem) from past experiences ...

I didn't read through all the posts, so I amy be repeating something here.
But these are a couple of things came to mind.

- if you are doing al the advertizing and booking, etc, the dancers should definitely not give out their own phone numbers. You should give them plenty of yours (the agency's) and have them pass those out. The bellygram agencies in this area (as far as I know) call the client afterward to ask how happy they were with the service, and ask, "... this she give you her business card?" if the dancer did, she wouldn't be hired again.
You're doing a lot of work, (advertizing, booking, taking payments, paying the dancer, lot of administrative duties) all she does is show up and dance, which she gets paid for. It should be your agency that gets promoted.

Make sure it's worth it for you. 15 % sounds nice and humble, but I don't think it would be worth it. Belly gram agencies around here keep about 35-60 %. You can probably call around what the going rate is, then sit down and figure out how much expences you will have, and then you'd have a better idea of how much you need to take.

Originally Posted by deelybopper

asim1 - why would you disallow dancers who take tips in their bra? There is a world of difference between taking a tip elegantly under where the strap crosses the shoulder and letting someone stick their sweaty hands into your cleavage (IMNSHO!)

Indeed!
It's an example for Artemisia only, really. I'm personally not saying it's good or bad, simply that I do know some dancers who hold the practice in bad taste, and do discourage their students and troupe members from doing it. As you might imagine, it's not something that I ever have to worry about when being tipped. :)

Originally Posted by deelybopper

evertything

trust, yes and no. i've seen dancers who have incredibly nice costumes, buy horrendous stuff also... ;-) that i would not want them to were for a gig i booked them for. is that being over controling? dunno.
and its not just personal taste. we are talking crap quality costumes.... or too revealing. etc.

with recently having started the troupe, i have seen that people who just start out are very in need (and happy to receive) info on how to alter a bra top so it fits and how high or low a belt should go. for example. and they might not all realise that a funky new eman might not be the right costume for a GP gig. so i think even though i do trust them to do a good job, yes, some guidance on these points might not hurt? i have send people out before and the mostly seem happy NOT to be thrown in the deep end, and to actually get help on this stuff.

so it's part education. you know, i tell my advanced students about my turkish airport special (dont remind me) from when i first started out, that i luckily never wore in public and now resides in a jar of beads. there is people i'm absolutely sure of that they need hardly any guidance, there is other with less experience that i want to guide. i see this as tutoring/mentoring to. i vaguely remember Tracey (waves again) saying she also helps to "groom" her girls?

music choices. ok, i WILL specify. i want sets to consis of min 3/4 oriental, a maximum of two pop songs, and NO shakira. and unless specifally suited for the gig, no non oriental rock pop fusion whatever. part of me does trust my girls to know this. but to avoid problems down the line i need to spell it out. i do NOT need to approve music choices for every gig (that would be a nighmare) but i do want to know for a fact they are not going to be shaking to a Michael Jackson song. ;-). unless there is some special reason this might be appropriate.

i would allow tipping in bra strap. i would NOT want explicit solliciting of tips, doing a sultane routine, etc.. i also instruct them to first get the female audience up to dance, than the male. etc.

boy, it's giving me a headache already ;-)

so, summing it up, i also see my job at "mentoring" my dancers (the ones that might need it...). and my experience so far in sending others out DOES lead me to beleive better to spell out MORE than less. no matter how trivial it might seem, there's always someone who didnt know.

i'm just realising this would be good material to actually start putting in my lessons more. problem there is that for some of the advanced students this would be irrelevant (no intention of performing) and for other superfluous (plenty of experience already). but there is a big group in the middle that could do with it. hmm, might be a workshop coming up.

Yes, I really think the 'guidance' approach is the right one. Sorry - when I read your first post it came across as a bit more 'you will do what I say!' Most dancers starting out on their performance journey would appreciate that advice about costume/music, etc. I think you're also right to see that this advice would fit well in lessons for advanced dancers.

<I just typed a load more response then deleted it, because I realised a lot of this is about diplomacy when dealing with your dancers. And I am so much a foot-in-mouth kind of person, I am not going to have the cheek to give you advice on diplomacy!>

Asim - I take your point!

My first teacher also run a bellydance agency but imho not very professional. She sent girls out who were definetely not ready, didn't wear appropriate costumes or used proper music etc. So I feel it's a good job you mentoring your girls. BTW my teacher took 33% of all gigs.

Good luck and I'm sure you'll run a great agency!

B

I haven't read all the responses, but when I worked with an agency (primarily a singing telegram agency, though he managed all sorts of party entertainment) his cut was about 25% - -- but a portion of that went to pay for a special gift (coffee mug, stein, etc) the giver picked out for the GOH, so 20% is probably closer to the truth. Any mileage charge went straight to me, of course.

The agency provided a little script for me, balloons and (if the customer paid for it) a small giftie for the GOH, a card, and some flyers about HIS business and business cards which I was expected to leave behind whenever possible. I still bring a helium balloon for the GOH, I feel naked without it. (like coming to a dinner party without a bottle of wine!)

He did NOT ask to see costumes. I think that could be a nightmare, too -- but stipulating your criteria (no mini-skirts, no excessive cleavage, no underwear or flesh above mid-thigh showing, etc.) in the contract would at least make your preferences clear and give you grounds for dismissal in case of a problem.

General statements like "Traditional performances to middle eastern music in conservative costuming" might be unenforceable, but I'd make them anyway for the sake of communication. I'd assume the dancer wants to make you happy so she gets more work from you, the more clearly you communicate what you expect, the better.

Maybe you could ask that any new dancers on your roster accompany you (or someone you trust) to a gig before they're sent out alone. That would give you lots of opportunity to talk about things in the car on the way there & back and get to know them a little better.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

so far i've found, when it's %, ranging between 10 and 25%. entertainment agency's seem to aks me what MY price is, than tack on a fixed amount and charge that to the customer (somewhere between 50 and 100E). i wont have that situation as i'd be telling the client right away what the total price would be.

This has been my experience when working with agencies.

I often get gigs I can't do. I give them referrals, but only referrals who I know will be appropriate for the job as that reflects on me. Yes, it's often because they saw me somewhere or found my website, but I know these girls refer gigs back to me as well, so it's all fair. I trust them...and having professional dancers you can trust in a community is priceless. ..g.:

Originally Posted by theesfield

I just ran into a contact of mine. She said she is starting up a singing telegram business in our area. She said she would charge the standard going rate in our area of $175. But then she threw in that she would take 50%. I am thinking..that's not worth me even painting my toes! What other commission rates are people running up against for these types of gigs?
Nilaja

One of the reasons I will not work with the singing telegram agency that does BellyGrams in my area is because of the low pay/huge comission they take. Last I heard, they charged $150, of which the dancer got $35. Call me crazy, but I'd rather work less for more money by having clients book me directly.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

I often get gigs I can't do. I give them referrals, but only referrals who I know will be appropriate for the job as that reflects on me. Yes, it's often because they saw me somewhere or found my website, but I know these girls refer gigs back to me as well, so it's all fair. I trust them...and having professional dancers you can trust in a community is priceless. ..g.:

I feel bad when I can't do a gig because there's really only 2-3 dancers that I feel comfortable referring out to. And if I'm unavailable because of a local show, it's likely they're all in it too, so I really don't have anyone to refer in that situation. I know a lot of dancers, but I refuse to refer anyone that I don't think could do as professional a job as me. It's not that I don't know others who dance as well as me; I mean more the business-y end like showing up reliably, having a pro level costume, and being able to handle crazy stuff that might come up (rowdy guests, client who try to stiff you, etc.).

phew! this sounds like a lot of work. make sure you pay your self enough to make it worth your time.

some agencies send out "spys" who look like party guests, to check their employees shows once in a while for quality control.

My only comparison is an 'agency' around here that manages circus types (fire eaters jugglers). They take 50%, however the performers are happy with that because they are the only gig in town, and the performer gets regular work through them, and they are up front about it, and the performer ends up with a higher fee than they would if they tried to negotiate alone anyway. The other 50% is put back into 'the business' - rehearsal space, costumes, transport etc.

I suppose it's different with us, as we don't provide any of those other things.