Thread: Choreography DVDs?

Hey there! :)

One of my main passions is choreographing dances for my troupe and I always get a ton of compliments on the dances. I feel like there aren't very many DVDs specifically meant to teach a full length choreography and I was considering making something.

Now, I have really no funds to put towards this but I have things to teach and a space and a digital camera that takes really good quality video. I tested it out and in the video I made you can see and hear me clearly... it's actually better quality than some of the DVDs I've seen, but less professional in the sense of camera angles etc...

My question to you guys: Do you think people would be interested in purchasing them assuming the choreography is quality stuff (intermediate level I'd say). They would be cheaper than most bellydance dvds considering the low "production" cost, but it is still alot of time and good information. If you think it's a good idea..how much do you think it would be worth? I would film it from behind me so it's easy to follow, in a well lit studio, and have chapters for each section of choreography and a demo at the beginning and end of the dvd.

I'm probably going to make some for my students/other dancers I know, but I'd love to share my dances with other dancers as well! Any input is welcome! :)

I was thinking about the same thing! My students would be happy with no-frills videos (right now they get them for free on YouTube when they've taken the classes) but I've had people contact me through YouTube and ask if they can learn and use some of my publicly posted choreographies. While I don't much like that idea, I gave them permission since there's nothing stopping them from using what's up there (so now most of my choreo vids are unlisted).

My students and peers keep asking why I haven't made a DVD yet, but I feel like almost everything out there has been covered (sometimes over and over...and over).

I was thinking about charging $10-20 for a choreography video with a breakdown of more complex moves, a sequencial walk-thru without music as well a full run with music. Price would depend on choreography length and production quality.

I'll be watching this thread to hear input from others. :)

I agree with you that there's a niche out there for beginner- and intermediate-level choreography instructional videos, and right now that particular market isn't very crowded.

Things you should consider before proceeding:

1. Would you be okay with the idea of a teacher buying your video and then teaching your choreography to her students without making them buy their own copies of it? If someone wanted to do that, would you charge her more than you'd charge a would-be soloist who just wants to perform it herself? Would you let her teach it forever, or would you expect her to "renew" her license to reteach it on a periodic basis, such as yearly?

2. Would you want to continue using the proposed choreographies for performances by your own students or you? Or would you just abandon using them yourself once you put the video "out there"?

3. Do your choreographies you're thinking of offering use readily-available music, or do they use out-of-print or hard-to-get music? I know of one choreography video that uses music that was taped from a live performance (with permission of the musicians), but the music was never released on CD or download, so it's difficult for someone buying the DVD to get the music into a performable format. (It could be extracted from the DVD using some pain-in-the-neck technology tools, but that requires more technical knowledge than most dancers have.)

4. Would you release written or web-based notes (or a PDF file on the DVD) to go with the choreography?

5. How would you feel if you went to a dance event and saw someone performing your choreography poorly? Or, how would you feel to see that they had changed parts of it? Would you be able to smile and shrug, or would you feel upset to see that someone had corrupted your artistic vision? Ie, are you emotionally ready for this? <grin>

Side note:
Make sure you have rights to the music as well, *especially* if you are selling the DVD.

Great minds think alike!

I agree with the above mentioned posts. It's a lot to think about.

There's so many intermediate to advance choreographies out there.....not enough for beginners. And I feel beginners do perform poorly because most dvds cater to the more experienced. I have countless technique and how to dvds, to learn belly dance,but not Beginner choreography dvds.

Earlier Suhaila had a nice collection of Beginning to Advanced Choreography DVDs. Low-tech but well enough presented.

Nourhan's choreography DVDs are also great and utilizes half-time slow presentation, as well as from-the-back presentation.

I really like Jenna's Heartbeat of Bellydance DVD too. The quality is very good, there's a ton of content, it offers a range of choreos from beginner to intermediate so it lasts you a while as a student, and awesomely priced (from WDNY). I've been reselling her DVDs in my classes because I've been procrastinating on making my own!

Regarding music rights, is there a general percentage or standard deal that's offered to the producers of independent labels? Anyone have a sample contract that they'd be willing to share?

Nadirah, are your DVDs going to include choreographies for troupes? That's something I don't think I've seen out there at all, a very interesting idea.

Originally Posted by nasila

Regarding music rights, is there a general percentage or standard deal that's offered to the producers of independent labels?

One good approach is to work directly with the musicians. For example, if you like something on Mary Ellen Donald's Gems of the Middle East, contact Mary Ellen directly. Or, if you want something from one of the CD's produced by Hollywood Music Center, contact Mher. And so on....

Each music producer has their own proposed business arrangement. Just talk to them about your concept, and work with them to figure out a mutually agreeable arrangement.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

One good approach is to work directly with the musicians. For example, if you like something on Mary Ellen Donald's Gems of the Middle East, contact Mary Ellen directly. Or, if you want something from one of the CD's produced by Hollywood Music Center, contact Mher. And so on....

Each music producer has their own proposed business arrangement. Just talk to them about your concept, and work with them to figure out a mutually agreeable arrangement.

2nded.

If you are working with a more commercial, larger label, you would most likely be expected to pay to license the music for your own commercial purposes.

I had a personal agreement with Bill Koutsouros of Animus for rights to use their music for the DVDs, and as far as background music for them, it was composed by the same editor/director of photography w/ whom I'm still sleeping (that always helps).

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I agree with you that there's a niche out there for beginner- and intermediate-level choreography instructional videos, and right now that particular market isn't very crowded.

Oh, you guys are just saying this because "Belly Dancing for Fun & Fitness" never made the transition to DVD! That video was a rare case of someone being ahead of her time AND putting the cart before the horse. If somebody (else) came out with a video like that today with an elementary overview and three starter choreographies for dance, veil, and cymbals, students would be snapping it up like mad.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Oh, you guys are just saying this because "Belly Dancing for Fun & Fitness" never made the transition to DVD! That video was a rare case of someone being ahead of her time AND putting the cart before the horse. If somebody (else) came out with a video like that today with an elementary overview and three starter choreographies for dance, veil, and cymbals, students would be snapping it up like mad.

You made me laugh with that! Yes, actually, I did think that video had several strengths, and you've listed exactly what I liked about it.

There is no DVD version of it anywhere? From how it sounds, it would be nice if they were to update it onto DVD...

Originally Posted by nasila

Regarding music rights, is there a general percentage or standard deal that's offered to the producers of independent labels? Anyone have a sample contract that they'd be willing to share?

Nadirah, are your DVDs going to include choreographies for troupes? That's something I don't think I've seen out there at all, a very interesting idea.

I need to learn more about the music rights too...

I was considering troupe choreography, or at least teaching choreo with adaptations to make it into a duet or troupe piece

Thanks for your input you guys, any help is appreciated!

If I do this I think I will try it with the Cane dance I'm teaching at an upcoming workshop. That could be fun- are there instructional cane choreographies on dvd anywhere?

Shira- I'm glad you reminded me about the performance stuff... everytime I consider making a dvd i find it hard to figure out what I'm okay with in regards to people actually performing it and/or teaching it to others (or if I'm not okay with them teaching it to others who haven't bought the dvd, then how the heck would I enforce that rule??)

How much experience have you had with workshop follow ups? Do you know if people have used or re-taught what you've taught in workshops? Are you comfortable with that? Because if you're not, you're probably not ready to take it to the next level of a video. When something is on a video, unless you want to keep a private detective and a lawyer on retainer, you have no recourse to stop people from doing all kinds of bad things to your intellectual property: lying to claim it as their own, corrupting it with their "improved" artistic vision or incompetence, and so on. When you take a workshop with a teacher visiting your town, your fellow dancers know what was taught, and you make a personal connection with the teacher (or at least you have to acknowledge that the teacher is a real, 3-D person). The ability to empathize with the teacher as a fellow dancer isn't as personal on videos--the distance and anonymity of the medium make it more tempting to think you can get away with a little plagiarism. If you don't feel your reputation (or self esteem) can withstand the unwashed masses getting their sticky-fingered hands on your art, then making choreography videos may not be a good career step for you.

sigh, I wish there wasn't an issue with unethical bellydance practices, but we all know those people exist...

Nourhan Sharif has a very good raks assaya DVD.

I think low tech is ok- as long as you have some basic functions on the dvd- like chapters. People do not use dvds like a workshop- a workshop just one long run of information. If they are trying to learn something step by step they need to be able to navigate the dvd. Maybe there is someone who you can hook up with to do that programming part of your dvd.

Hi PetiteNadirah

I would be interested in purchasing choreographies, if you would be interested in selling some now.

I'd be interested in buying choreographies, sounds like a great idea.

Originally Posted by Ndi-mi

Hi PetiteNadirah

I would be interested in purchasing choreographies, if you would be interested in selling some now.

oOo.. what types of things are you interested in? I could record some of my dances I'm using for my troupe to give you an idea of what I normally choreograph.

Well, I have a group of ladies who are all learning dance with me. Beginner to intermediate stuff. So, troupe would be great, troupe with props (veil, cane, stick, zills) would be terrific!

I'm happy to buy the music, so you don't have to worry about music rights. If you tell me the artist, album and song, I'll buy either that single or the whole CD.

In fact, if you happen to have any choreos to the Bellydancing for Fortune and Fame CD, I already have that one, and that would be awesome!

There are no professionals here, so we would learn for ourselves (as a troupe) and possibly put on a show to entertain friends and amused family. We have a lot of very amused families.

Originally Posted by Ndi-mi

I'm happy to buy the music, so you don't have to worry about music rights. If you tell me the artist, album and song, I'll buy either that single or the whole CD.

In fact, if you happen to have any choreos to the Bellydancing for Fortune and Fame CD, I already have that one, and that would be awesome!

Obtaining rights to use music for a piece that will be sold entails more than just purchasing the music, you have to seek written permission from the artist/publisher and/or pay a licensing fee.

Originally Posted by nasila

Regarding music rights, is there a general percentage or standard deal that's offered to the producers of independent labels? Anyone have a sample contract that they'd be willing to share?

I'm bumping this question, as I just ran into the 'make a resonable offer' scenario and I'm not sure what's in fact reasonable. Would a flat fee per song or per CD work, or a percentage of sales (though perhaps hard to manage), or...? How would those be calculated, other than projecting estimated income (which is infinitely variable) and working backwards? I know at least some Bhuzzers must have actual real-life experience to share...or even just suggestions, please?

I've just made my first DVDs - one for beginners with a choreography and a combinations one from intermediate to advanced. (And here's a little plug -you can get them both from my website Hipsinc Bellydance )

For the drilling/teaching we used tracks from the Very Cairo CDs by Ludmilla and Monika at Zentrum für Orientalischen Tanz | Bauchtanz München | Bellydance Munich as recommended by Meissoun they were happy to licence me to use their music for free in return for a credit on the DVDs.

For the choreography on the beginners DVD we used a Shereen track which cost £150 (about $200) to use. On the combos one we used Beata and Horacio tracks which likewise cost £150. That seems to be the going rate because we were quoted it by other music publishers too.

For our fusion routine on the combos DVD we used copyright free music from the Internet. There are sites on which up and coming musicians publish their music for anyone to download and use FOC. I'm not sure what they are called because our fusion teacher sourced it.

A friend of mine used a friend's music and paid a royalty for each DVD she sold. And wished she hadn't. It seemed like a good deal at the time but I think it was a real pain to administer.

I must say though, that the music was without doubt, the most time consuming, frustrating and lengthy part of the whole process. Getting all the necessary permissions and so on took almost a year!

Originally Posted by CharlotteDesorgher

I must say though, that the music was without doubt, the most time consuming, frustrating and lengthy part of the whole process. Getting all the necessary permissions and so on took almost a year!

It's important that you took this step. There are arguments for and against copyright laws, but for now, while they are in place, it is the best way to give due credit to creative work product.