Thread: Another student turned teacher

I know this has been talked to death before but I guess I just need to vent. Sorry.

I don't know what the community is like in your area, but in my area there are a ton of teachers. A chunk of which have no business teaching. (I won't even start on the amount of them gigging that aren't ready). Students that have barely scratched the surface of this beautiful dance and yet they feel they are ready to teach. I hear the same excuse every time "but I'm only teaching beginners" (face palm) like that makes it ok? NO! It doesn't. I personally have had to break the bad habits of students that come to me that they learned from these "teachers". It's hard enough to keep classes full in this economy. What aggravates me even more is when they know they aren't qualified and yet they still do it because they have justified it in their head somehow.
Recently a local student has started teaching and hasn't told her own teacher. She is teaching in the same area as her teacher. This could cause a huge problem. She knows she's not ready and yet she is still doing it. Ggggrrr!!

Same thing happens in my neck of the woods. There's a flamenco dancer who's never taken belly dance and doesn't know anything about the music (her words!) who teaches at my gym. Ghastly. And she doesn't really teach either. Oh, this is too painful to even write.

The good students will find the good teachers. And the rest - well, at least they are moving instead of watching the tube. You just can't let it get to you, just take a deep breath and shimmy ....

It happens here even in Idaho. We don't have a gig market (I and the other pro who moved never had any success... it's mormon central) and belly dance has lost its allure to zumba which is HUGE here. Between zumba and the unqualified "teachers" I've decided to give up teaching for now. I can't get much business in this economy and can't compete with all the *******s who decide they are suddenly experts. I'm going hobbyist for now, working on my wedding plans, and start working on a plan to get gigs in the ritsy tourist valley an hour away.

I was at a bellydance swap meet and ran into a beginning dancer who told me she was teaching at a local school. She went into great detail on how lucky she was she was only dancing 6 mos and now she is teaching.

The kicker for me was when she referred to her students as "another group of suckers". Seriously. I actually had to repeat it back to her "Did you just call your students suckers??" and she laughed! I was slack-jawed the rest of the day.

I remember, after I had been dancing 2 years, doing some belly dance at a party just for fun. Ie, in ordinary-person clothes, just fooling around, nothing that could be construed as a gig. I was just a guest like everybody else, and my dancing was motivated by another guest asking me to show what I could do.

Anyway.... the other guests praised me highly, saying I was really good. My response at the time was, "I still consider myself a beginner. A very promising beginner, maybe, but a beginner nonetheless."

Why do today's 6-month-wonders see themselves any differently from that? I've posted my own analysis of this on other threads in the past, but what do you all think?

Chutzpah!

But, there doesn't seem to be much that we can do about it.

One of these totally unqualified teachers (I know, I saw her) got a gig "teaching" at a Park District, which folks may or may not know = political connections of some kind.

In this case the guilty party teaches another discipline there, I won't say what to protect this person's identity; but it isn't dance - and she is good at that other discipline - but she isn't a trained dancer of any kind let alone a teacher of dance and she shouldn't be teaching dance, the end.

I don't see why people think that because you can teach (cardio, kickboxing, yoga, Zumba, French) you can teach belly dance. Why is this? You wouldn't go out and try to teach ballet right?

So arrggghhhhhhhh.

Unless and until dancers and students of the dance respect the art as an art, and understand that it isn't easy and that most of us continue to learn throughout our careers and throughout our lives, this is going to be a problem for us.

Lacking guilds or any kind of real community of dancers and a cohesive community of the arts, I don't see how this is going to come about.

We're in kind of a weird place culturally. There isn't much respect even for teachers (look at Wisconsin!) or for workers in general; definitely little respect for artists in general and it's everybody for him/herself economically.

I was talking to an old friend the other day. We reconnected after far too long a time but we'd worked together and danced together back in the day. She too is dismayed by what she calls "the need for speed," and laments it and the lack of respect for a difficult art form and for the fact that it demands time to perform well - years perhaps - even if one is talented and eager - let alone teach.

PS I don't really think people should be teaching unless they have had a pretty good background actually performing. But one of my beloved students, with zero experience either performing beyond student performances I'd created plus one or two others, and no experience teaching obviously, actually tried to get my teaching job!

She walked right up to my boss and tried to steal my damn job.

aaarrrgghhhhhhhhh.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I remember, after I had been dancing 2 years, doing some belly dance at a party just for fun. Ie, in ordinary-person clothes, just fooling around, nothing that could be construed as a gig. I was just a guest like everybody else, and my dancing was motivated by another guest asking me to show what I could do.

Anyway.... the other guests praised me highly, saying I was really good. My response at the time was, "I still consider myself a beginner. A very promising beginner, maybe, but a beginner nonetheless."

Why do today's 6-month-wonders see themselves any differently from that? I've posted my own analysis of this on other threads in the past, but what do you all think?

Well my comment just below yours reflects a thought of a friend, we go way back - she thinks there's been a cultural change - a desire for instant gratification.

Maybe that's it? I don't know. I'm baffled.

BTW I'd been on stage for years before I felt like I was out of the beginner stage. I was entertaining, true, but I knew enough to know my limitations - hell they were painfully obvious because there were so many different forms of music - live yet - to deal with - plus all the various performance situations and challenges - it was an uphill battle.

Plus there were all these pros from Turkey working side by side with this (very fortunate!) beginner; dancers from the Roman communities etc, plus the Egyptian movies - gifted American dancers too and people from the Middle East - the customers could all dance. The musicians would give an earful if you screwed up. You wouldn't work in the first place if you were really bad! or didn't improve fast!

People don't have those challenges now. You can pop on a CD and dance in the mirror and "film" yourself - ta da!

A star is born.

Yup, happens to the best of us. All. the. time.

I don't understand it either. I've been involved in this dance form for 6 years and I don't consider myself ready to teach.

I do consider myself a professional dancer, just not a teacher. Maybe someday, but in the Bay Area there are so many awesome ones that I want to spend my time learning and not managing students/studio/teacher stress.

Originally Posted by NancyAsiya

I don't understand it either. I've been involved in this dance form for 6 years and I don't consider myself ready to teach.

I do consider myself a professional dancer, just not a teacher. Maybe someday, but in the Bay Area there are so many awesome ones that I want to spend my time learning and not managing students/studio/teacher stress.

Well you've hit on something important - being a teacher is HARD WORK. It's an art in itself - it's challenging and it's humbling!

I should think, when you're young especially, you'd want to be out performing, learning, having a ball with the whole process of performing and studying and finding your voice - there's plenty of time to teach.

The situation is exactly the same over here in the UK although we have a much smaller scene.
It begs a number of questions:
Who is qualified to say who and who is not good enough technique wise to teach this dance?
There are teaching schemes but still no restrictions on the untalented,inexperienced setting up as a teacher. These people will continue to crawl into a profession they have no training nor aptitude for let alone knowledge of dance technique.
Even if you are a recognized teacher trainer , are you going to walk up to an incompetant dancer, you know to be a teacher and tell her she has no right to do so?
At least as an employee, I have been asked to prove my qualifications to teach and to teach dance and I am inspected ( though frankly those who do so cannot check my technique...my teacher-training scheme gave me that tick of approval).
But most teachers are self-employed individuals. There are restrictions via Health and Safety and Crimial Records and PLI and these may make some think twice but some will carry on thoghtless and regardless of these demands and of the trouble they may get into and have no committment to standards anyway.

I have to say as I approach retirement from teaching and backing off from performing, I am very tempted to confront people who should not be teaching, to ask about those committments and standards. But will I want to cause such hassle in the community? I know of 3 teaching who I consider should not be, all have poor technique and would be unable to demonstrate well even if they have teaching skills and one of these has no musicallity whatsoever and is teaching against her teacher's advice. Do I want to upset people who may be happy or is this dance bigger than them and me? In the final analysis, would anyone take any notice ?!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I remember, after I had been dancing 2 years, doing some belly dance at a party just for fun. Ie, in ordinary-person clothes, just fooling around, nothing that could be construed as a gig. I was just a guest like everybody else, and my dancing was motivated by another guest asking me to show what I could do.

Anyway.... the other guests praised me highly, saying I was really good. My response at the time was, "I still consider myself a beginner. A very promising beginner, maybe, but a beginner nonetheless."

Why do today's 6-month-wonders see themselves any differently from that? I've posted my own analysis of this on other threads in the past, but what do you all think?

I think that alot of people tend to take going from the beginner to advanced class literally. As in, they think when the teacher suggest they move up in courses, that they are now an advanced dancer....as opposed to just taking an advance course....

If they took advanced biology in school it wouldn't make them a advanced biologist haha But apparently with dance some people don't quite the see the difference...

Mahira and others, I agree that this is a very frustrating situation -- especially when they say "But I'm only teaching beginners!" Don't beginners need the best teaching too, from the start? And the pie can only be sliced so many ways.

Since we have no direct control over who is allowed to teach (or perform), all we can do is grit our teeth. refrain from publicly badmouthing another teacher, and keep producing the best classes we can. Oh, and blow off steam here on Bhuz!! At least our fellow Bhuzzers understand....

I completely understand the frustration as a dancer and teacher, I guess (unless I missed it), I have to ask a potentially stupid question, but then again it might depend on region/studio/etc. How are these 3 month "wonders" getting hired at studios? (I'll keep it studio specific at the moment). Most reputable studios require professional interviews, professional resumes, certifications etc etc...I as a teacher and professional wouldn't take a job at a studio without the above mentioned...I guess I don't understand how studios would go for what at best an 'intermediate' student trying to teach newbies when their own knowledge is elementary at best? Studios are liable for injuries to students, the overall enjoyment of a class/teacher (increase in class size would directly effect their business) etc. For those of you that have private studios, dance schools etc, as much as this is annoying, just remember you provide the more in depth experience, quality instruction. Those of us that teach at dance studios, we must remember to always strive for quality and professionalism. I think maintaining a high standard will make the biggest difference. Especially in a struggling economy, people want the most for their money. And by most, I mean quality. You pay $10 a lesson or less and you're going to get that kind of quality and experience. Same with performing at private events, you charge $70, you're going to get a $70 show.I think with this outlook, the baby-dancers-turned-teacher-prematurely will have to swallow the hard 'pill' of experience trumps all.

Hang in there ladies :)

Studio owners are just people after all, maybe they have no business running a studio and other studio owners are venting somewheres...? Seriously tho I think people are going to do whatever they feel they can get away with, across the board; well, let me amend that to "many people" so I don't sound so cynical.
And I think that "many people" will just want to cheaper alternative when given a chance; it's the special student/studio owner/restaurant owner/etc. who realizes quality and opts to pay more for it.

Originally Posted by la_soraya

I completely understand the frustration as a dancer and teacher, I guess (unless I missed it), I have to ask a potentially stupid question, but then again it might depend on region/studio/etc. How are these 3 month "wonders" getting hired at studios? (I'll keep it studio specific at the moment). Most reputable studios require professional interviews, professional resumes, certifications etc etc...I as a teacher and professional wouldn't take a job at a studio without the above mentioned...I guess I don't understand how studios would go for what at best an 'intermediate' student trying to teach newbies when their own knowledge is elementary at best? Studios are liable for injuries to students, the overall enjoyment of a class/teacher (increase in class size would directly effect their business) etc. For those of you that have private studios, dance schools etc, as much as this is annoying, just remember you provide the more in depth experience, quality instruction. Those of us that teach at dance studios, we must remember to always strive for quality and professionalism. I think maintaining a high standard will make the biggest difference. Especially in a struggling economy, people want the most for their money. And by most, I mean quality. You pay $10 a lesson or less and you're going to get that kind of quality and experience. Same with performing at private events, you charge $70, you're going to get a $70 show.I think with this outlook, the baby-dancers-turned-teacher-prematurely will have to swallow the hard 'pill' of experience trumps all.

Hang in there ladies :)

Originally Posted by bintbeled

Mahira and others, I agree that this is a very frustrating situation -- especially when they say "But I'm only teaching beginners!" Don't beginners need the best teaching too, from the start? And the pie can only be sliced so many ways.

Since we have no direct control over who is allowed to teach (or perform), all we can do is grit our teeth. refrain from publicly badmouthing another teacher, and keep producing the best classes we can. Oh, and blow off steam here on Bhuz!! At least our fellow Bhuzzers understand....

Yes. That's why I didn't name names and I won't. But I guess I just needed to vent, and I guess I was kind f hoping that maybe this thread would be seen by one of "those people" and make them think twice.

{{{{Hugs}}}}

YEARS ago a friend arranged a teaching job for me at a small women's gym, without even asking me about it because she wanted me to teach so badly that she figured that if she found me a place I would do it. (Note that I am not ready to teach NOW, let alone years ago!) The gym was ready to hire me and had never seen me dance (or do anything else for that matter). I think smaller gyms or some places like Yoga studios might be where alot of these teachers end up, as I can think of at least two other cases where this has also happened. I think most larger gyms at least require fitness certifications, but its not always the case, and definitely is not always the case with smaller places, they just want to offer something new and different that might get more people in the door. They usually dont know anything about bellydance and cant tell if someone is good or bad dancer.

Its a very sad thing, and its a problem that propagates itself because eventually those students will get close to that teachers level and think "yay, I am now her equal!" and then THEY go out and teach too.

Originally Posted by MahiraRaqs

Yes. That's why I didn't name names and I won't. But I guess I just needed to vent, and I guess I was kind f hoping that maybe this thread would be seen by one of "those people" and make them think twice.

{{{{Hugs}}}}

Wouldn't it be great if that happened??!

Yeah, I started to be more specific and thought better of it.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

But one of my beloved students, with zero experience either performing beyond student performances I'd created plus one or two others, and no experience teaching obviously, actually tried to get my teaching job!

She walked right up to my boss and tried to steal my damn job.

aaarrrgghhhhhhhhh.

Sorry to skip back in the conversation, but I'm still kind of reeling from this! This whole thread makes me sad, but this is just astounding. But it's really making me look at how I'm getting the information out to my students about the ethics of the dance community.

Has anyone ever done an "ethics workshop" of sorts with their students, where you talk about things like undercutting, being ready to teach, etc?

As someone who has only been dancing 2 1/2 years, I am thankful that my first dance teacher was a very skilled dancer who had been dancing since 1975. She was a purist, but she really knew what she was doing. Now thanks to such excellent instruction from the beginning, my basic moves are very polished and I impress my current teacher with them. Had I started with someone who had little or no experience I definitely would not be where I am now, already working on layering and more advanced traveling steps. Able to make it intact through workshops where most of the students are pro dancers. It is very troubling that there is a trend of people who have had even less experience than I have teaching. I almost can't believe it. I wouldn't even think about teaching it until I've been dancing at least 10 years. I think of myself as an old woman teaching belly dance. Lol. As far as technique is concerned (among other things) I still have quite a ways to go, especially looking at Intermediate and professional dancers so if I taught it right now I would have no idea what I was doing and I'm sure I would confuse the hell out of people since my movement vocabulary is still pretty limited.

Originally Posted by PepperLotus

Has anyone ever done an "ethics workshop" of sorts with their students, where you talk about things like undercutting, being ready to teach, etc?

What a great idea. This thread reminds me that it's time (again) to remind my students of some of these things!

Originally Posted by MahiraRaqs

I know this has been talked to death before but I guess I just need to vent. Sorry.

I don't know what the community is like in your area, but in my area there are a ton of teachers. A chunk of which have no business teaching. (I won't even start on the amount of them gigging that aren't ready). Students that have barely scratched the surface of this beautiful dance and yet they feel they are ready to teach. I hear the same excuse every time "but I'm only teaching beginners" (face palm) like that makes it ok? NO! It doesn't. I personally have had to break the bad habits of students that come to me that they learned from these "teachers". It's hard enough to keep classes full in this economy. What aggravates me even more is when they know they aren't qualified and yet they still do it because they have justified it in their head somehow.
Recently a local student has started teaching and hasn't told her own teacher. She is teaching in the same area as her teacher. This could cause a huge problem. She knows she's not ready and yet she is still doing it. Ggggrrr!!

wow, you are right !...i can tell who came from where by the mistakes! "break bad habits" indeed!

Originally Posted by Musidora

I think that alot of people tend to take going from the beginner to advanced class literally. As in, they think when the teacher suggest they move up in courses, that they are now an advanced dancer....as opposed to just taking an advance course....

If they took advanced biology in school it wouldn't make them a advanced biologist haha But apparently with dance some people don't quite the see the difference...

THIS.

I teach 8-9 sessions in a year. By session 6 or 7, students who have been with me every session since session 1 are beginning to get all "review" material; they are not going to get anything truly "new" from now on, unless I decide to change my curriculum. By the end of a year of beginner classes, most students are barely dipping one toe into the ocean that is belly dance. They are just beginning to hear what I've been saying to them in small doses about music, musiciality, quality of movement, stylization, let alone being able to really apply any of it. I'd say that the average student should remain at the beginner level (as I teach it) for at least 18 months, with most requiring two full years or more. Even then, does 18 months or two years of beginner material mean these folks are now automatically ready for an intermediate level? Absolutely not!

Not only that, but when folks go from beginner to intermediate, they are not magically "intermediate-level" dancers; IMO, they have mostly mastered the basic technique of the beginner curriculum as I teach it, but they are not in any way above "beginner" for some time. It will take several more months, or a year or more, to become "intermediate."

To the point of MahiraRaqs' OP: sheesh! The arrogance of some people. Arrogance? How about the absolute delusions of some people.

/end rant

Deborah

Originally Posted by PepperLotus

Sorry to skip back in the conversation, but I'm still kind of reeling from this! This whole thread makes me sad, but this is just astounding. But it's really making me look at how I'm getting the information out to my students about the ethics of the dance community.

Has anyone ever done an "ethics workshop" of sorts with their students, where you talk about things like undercutting, being ready to teach, etc?

Some of us are meeting this weekend to talk about various issues and this may come up.

I agree, this one is a real doozy - this particular person is an extreme example and somebody who actually did a great deal of damage.

Ethics is logical, we can surely discuss that but some of this is irrational - what do you do about that?

Especially when quite young people are involved - they are - say - college age or younger, maybe up to their late twenties or so -

therefore, changing fast, trying to find a place in the world and also, simply by virtue of being young, not real aware of things, how people (teachers for example) have worked for decades to acquire knowledge; but also, how to tolerate new things and new people - new ideas -

Young people are going through a lot of changes and have to learn so much so quickly - it's not surprising they might make mistakes.

Some of those mistakes, their learning curves, come at the expense of others and if we're the target it isn't so easy to deal with!

But, I guess the best we can do is double down on our own art, our own journey through life and keep trying to do the best WE can -

?

Originally Posted by bintbeled

Wouldn't it be great if that happened??!

Yeah, I started to be more specific and thought better of it.

I've thought about taking the direct approach with some of this stuff and contacting the employer (in the case I mentioned.)

However, maybe I'm just a chicken but I've learned the hard way about political blow back. One might be right, about a "teacher's" qualifications - but that doesn't mean things will work out as hoped, and the person complaining then gets a reputation for being a b****.

I have decided instead to try and be a positive person and work hard at my own craft, hoping that people will respect the years of hard work and see the difference.

I don't really know what else to do - ideas?

I like the idea of an ethics workshop. I might have to do something like that. If I offer it as a free of charge more of a hey lets have an evening of chatter kind of thing it might go over better.

Originally Posted by MahiraRaqs

I like the idea of an ethics workshop. I might have to do something like that. If I offer it as a free of charge more of a hey lets have an evening of chatter kind of thing it might go over better.

nice idea... perhaps with snacks and music like a sort of party but with belly dance discussion topics it would go over well

Originally Posted by Lesedi

nice idea... perhaps with snacks and music like a sort of party but with belly dance discussion topics it would go over well

exactly! I'm gonna do it.

Originally Posted by MahiraRaqs

exactly! I'm gonna do it.

Ok, I'm going to do it too! And I was thinking along the same lines...making it free, and targeting it primarily toward my intermediate and advanced level dancers (although anyone would be welcome) in a casual environment. A lot of my students are college age or a bit older, so I'm hoping that this will at least introduce some of the stuff mentioned above.

Originally Posted by MahiraRaqs

exactly! I'm gonna do it.

Especially with the snacks.