Thread: Age requirement for public paid performances?

Hello bhuzzers :) I'm going to try to articulate this as best I can without segwaying into 'rant' territory. I was just curious if there is an age requirement for dancers to be hired: a) in a restaurant, b) private parties, c) with troupes. I mean have restaurant owners ever asked your age and perhaps declined to hire you based upon if you were under age? I don't know I would "guess" that part of it would fall onto the parents shoulders of whats appropriate for their child...?

What I'm getting at goes along the lines of "another student turned instructor" discussion: Is it appropriate to allow our students in their teens to perform on a professional level? And more importantly, are they being responsible?-not just for themselves and the art form, but by considering themselves 'professionals' filing taxes, declaring their tips etc etc?

Love to hear your thoughts (perhaps I'm imagining a problem that doesnt entirely exist)

some of the things you bring up are just plain ethics- filing taxes, good business standards are things adults screw up all the time too. If you are bringing a minor to gigs of any kind, you'd better make sure you have someone keeping an eye on them at all times, because yes, you can be held liable if you are bringing them in your capacity as an instructor. Minors can not work in an establishment which serves alcohol without being accompanied by a parent or guardian. If you are willing to take those risks and the parents are supportive and the kid has talent, I see no reason not to allow young dancers to perform in appropriate venues.

As to what appropriate venues are- there's no magic answer to that one. There are restaurants I would be comfortable letting a 10 year old perform in and restaurants I wouldn't let my adult friends enter if I could prevent it! Generally, venues which have troupe performances tend to be a little more family friendly (tho not always!) depends on the troupe and the event, of course, but it is common for troupes to have members step out for a specific performance for any number of reasons. If the troupe or director deems a particular venue to be too mature for a performer, they stay home for that show. No big deal- meanwhile the youth gets valuable performing experience.

Now, I like watching more experienced dancers in general, but all other things being equal, I'm just as happy to watch a 16 year old with 5 years dance experience as I am to watch any other dancer with the same experience.

Personally, I would never, ever send anyone under the age of 21 alone to a professional gig of any kind -- restaurant or party. As someone quite a bit older than 21 () I prefer to have someone accompany me to private party gigs, even though I often travel alone.

Occasionally I have someone under 18 in class (usually no younger than 16) and I would never take that child anywhere -- including a hafla, festival, etc, let alone a gig -- without a parent present. Over 18 and the child is now, officially, an adult, and -- legally -- can make his/her own decisions. However . . . if mom's paying for the lessons, then mom has something to say about where 18 -21 child dances, at least in my book.

I was gigging under the age of 18 -- 17 1/2 to be precise -- but it was as an apprentice to my mom. She was always present. Did I gig unaccompanied under the age of 21? Yes, rarely, and only if she was simply too ill to go herself and couldn't find someone to go with me. But, I had also been gigging for over two years before I was 21 and had been her assistant since about age 13 or 14. That kind of real-world experience does make a difference.

As Lara stated, it's all about the venue. Festivals are appropriate for minors. Haflas and showcases in restaurants can be appropriate for minors.

But always with a parent/grandparent!

Deborah

Tanya LV and Sherena of Ohio, both had gigs when they were pre-teen and on. I'd be interested to hear more about their experiences. I don't think I could set a hard and fast rule, there are so many variables to consider. I think in the right venue, a young dancer can flourish.

I agree. There are a) always exceptions, and b) depends on the venue. I can't shed any personal experience light on the subject and also don't teach teenagers at the moment so I don't have any instructor knowledge either. I would only argue that if you started gigging as a pre-teen/teen in the past (ie NOT 2011) youth wasn't so overstimulated or over-sexualized the way they seem to be today. But either way, I'd love to hear from both ends of the spectrum: did you regret starting so young? (ie did you miss out on being a pre-teen/teen because you worked the weekends?) or was it the best decision you made for yourself and future career?

(thanks for your responses ladies :)

As far as the law is concerned, I don't think it matters if you're talking about a young belly dancer or Tommy Stinson in The Replacements. There are labor restrictions on how, when, and where minors can work. The law makes limited exceptions for family businesses (if your parents own the restaurant), but some rules don't bend. I don't think there is any combination of circumstances where a minor would be able to tend bar, for example.

My main concern would be the undesirable circumstances occasionally encountered when performing as a professional belly dancer. Working in a restaurant where alcohol is served or at a private party may present situations where audience members could harass or threaten a young dancer who may lack the maturity to handle the matter safely. Society often sexualizes young women in creepy ways (remember the Olsen Twins' countdown?), and there are some seriously misinformed people out there when it comes to belly dance in particular. Why would a responsible parent rush to put her daughter in a situation where drunk weirdos feel they are entitled to leer and jeer at her because someone paid for her to be "the entertainment"? If your daughter is that gifted, her talent should still be there a few years from now when she is an adult. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time a parent made shortsighted or foolish choices to promote a young performer because they felt there was money, career potential, or a chance to further their own dreams in doing so. I'm not saying all parents who let their children go into the performing arts are like this--some are very responsible and cautious--but there's a reason the stereotype of the pushy stage parent exists.

On the other hand, I think it is also fairly unlikely that the average young dancer has the maturity of technique and stage presence to deserve to be in the position to even consider such an employment option.

Check your local rules about child labor. She may need to apply for a work permit or the equivalent.

Also, remember there is a whole lot more to doing a public gig than remembering a choreography and wearing a costume. A whole lot more, that comes with time, experience and the ability to work in a public facing position.

IMO a lot depends on the individual's maturity, level of experience, professionalism and training not just as a dancer, but as a performer.

I would personally not allow a minor to perform a public gig without an adult chaperone.

I started working professionally in entertainment in elementary school. But there was proper supervision, guidance and an agent who was tough as nails :) That makes all the difference in the world!

This one is difficult to answer. We have had several dancers here on Bhuz who were very active in the restaurant circuit in their home towns while still in high school. Most of them were doing the work with their parents heart felt approval and supervision. IIRC, they had also been dancing for several years.

My biggest issue is the dancers maturity and their support system. Even as an adult, many times it is difficult to dance in public and have the confidence and understanding of how to handle some of the issues which can come up at gigs. I think this is especially important for younger dancers. Because as we have seen in a thread here recently, teens being teens, it is easy to become the butt of expressed cruelty. Not saying that as adults we don't get it too, it's simply that many adults have better filters and won't say anything.

Now, on the other hand, I have seen teachers who only send out their kiddie troupe because, in her words, that is what the people want. My eyes glazed over at that one! I think she is doing a grave disservice to both the dance and her students.

{{{HUGS}}}

I've known only 2 dancers who were underaged when they started performing in the clubs and in both cases, their moms came with them.

I'm 16 and as you might know, I'm trying to go professional but I don't think I'm allowed to perform in restaurants or private parties! I wouldn't want to at this point, I feel uncomfortable with being so young and having older men watching me. I don't feel it's appropriate. It's one thing if I'm performing on stage like many other teens do, that doesn't bother me. But when you perform at a party or restaurant you are obviously closer and it's a different situation! For those teens who do decide to perform at such things I think a parent MUST be present. Even when I teach now, I make sure my mom is there and it's just a volunteer job that I'm not paid for. I'm trying to teach professionally based on my instructors blessing and only to children I know. I don't want to grow up too fast! A lot of people told me they wish they had started earlier, I just think you have to find a balance :)

Hmm.. actually I don't know about the laws in our gigging area,
But I did start gigging professionally when I was 17 and I believe my instructor started at 15 or 16 in Philly also. I just turned 21 this year. I did work in 1 or 2 21+ Only nightclubs and a lot of restaurants and 18+ hookah bars. Personally, I do wish I'd *waited* to 'go pro' ... but a lot of professional gigging nuances like working the crowd evolves and matures with experience anyway. My parents came w/ me to my first restaurant gig MAYBE the first 3 times I worked... that was it.

Like I said, idk about the laws like you're asking, but I know we all mature mentally and dance-wise at different levels.. so it's hard to say, some people can do in 2 years what it takes others 200, and some only THINK they are able to do in 2 what they need 20 for! but it wasn't the actual "gigging" that bothered me, actually, (I've been thinking this A LOT lately, so funny to see this thread) but it was everything else that naturally goes along with it! I lived an hour away in Delaware, was driving around the city (which I'd NEVER been to, was still a *fresh* driver,) on weekends at 2am when all the drunks were going home! and just walking alone in the city w/ a suitcase and tons of make up looking like an innocent outsider...hanging out in a Arab club all night that's 90% middle-aged men.. THAT'S the stuff that makes me wonder how the HECK my mom let me do it!!! But I had my teacher's/mentors blessing, I was as safe as a lone-gigger can be, and I think my parents just saw how their super-introverted loner girl that just hung out in the woods all the time would "light up" and just be so alive and happy when I performed.. hehe, I love my parents, they're amazing... not trying to put them down at all, but it is surprising to think back on. Even now that I'm 21 I still have A LOT of fellow dancers say I'm too young and 1. shouldn't be performing 2. shouldn't be teaching 3. don't know what I'm doing (ouch!)

and yes, my dad only leaves his cell phone on on weekend nights JUST because he knows I'm out gigging in some other state all night and is worried..
but obviously I'm fine, super happy and loving life and dancing.. I've had more than my fair share of belly dance "misadventures," so I'd def. advise LOTS of mentoring and supervision if you're younger, preferrably even now, it's more fun that way too but quite often I'll do around 10 shows in one weekend, who wants to tag along to all THAT?! :)

I know this doesn't answer your question at all, but just giving my own experience w/ the underage gigging.

Every person/situation is unique, but please please SAFETY FIRST

Legally, it varies by location. In most cases, the restrictions are based on # hours allowed, time of hours allowed, insurance requirements, or the serving of alcohol.

In Florida, as of a few years ago, the law allows you to have a job at 16 (earlier in some circumstances), but you can not work in an establishment that serves or sells alcohol (unless you meet certain waiver requirements about how the business works) until 18. I haven't looked into the laws in any other states because it hasn't come up for my troupes since I left Florida.

Originally Posted by mahsati

Legally, it varies by location. In most cases, the restrictions are based on # hours allowed, time of hours allowed, insurance requirements, or the serving of alcohol.

In Florida, as of a few years ago, the law allows you to have a job at 16 (earlier in some circumstances), but you can not work in an establishment that serves or sells alcohol (unless you meet certain waiver requirements about how the business works) until 18. I haven't looked into the laws in any other states because it hasn't come up for my troupes since I left Florida.

This is consistent with Alaska state law as well. There is some exception for kids working at age 14, but I don't remember what it was. Family businesses are another story all together. (My kids love to 'work' in my shop, but I pay them in stickers and free business training. The 5 year old is great at rearranging window displays, and the 10 year old can tally a receipt faster than the computer )

It does seem like there must be some other arrangement for entertainers, since there are plenty of child entertainers working in this country. I'm not planning on sending my kids out any time soon, but I'd be interested to know how that all works!

In my earlier post, I took for granted that a minor would not be going to performances *alone.* I guess that was presumptive! *I* don't like going to gigs alone!

Great responses ladies :) I'm not looking to 'blow the whistle' on underage dancers at 21+ venues (if you're employing them and you get caught, you'll be punished by the law period). I can't say this thread is the "general consensus" (its quite clear that its really up to individual circumstances), but it sounds like the necessary precautions are taken- that goes for all of us, as Shiraz said: "safety first" :)

My daughter started performing as a soloist when she was 17. I went to every gig she had until she was 21+ so that she always had a grownup on her side at the venue: public venues, parties, and anything organized by her teacher. I wrote the KY Alcoholic Beverage Commission about the legality of her performing in places that sold alcohol and they responded very quickly and clearly: okay to perform in restaurants (sell more food than drink) as long as she doesn't handle the alcohol. Not okay to perform in bars (sell more drink than food). Every locality is different, but I'm sure that every locality has someone who can give a clear answer.

Originally Posted by ShirazRaqs

Even now that I'm 21 I still have A LOT of fellow dancers say I'm too young and 1. shouldn't be performing 2. shouldn't be teaching 3. don't know what I'm doing (ouch!)

They dont know what they are talking about honey because you are fabulous! You have grown in the few years I have known you and have advanced quickly because of your natural talent. I believe it has alot to do with jealously and the competitive nature of some dancers. Keep doing what you are doing, you are an inspiration!

wow, thanks Belliedansa!!! That was very sweet of you...
now I must stalk your profile to find out who you are... hehe ;)