Thread: What do you expect to pay for dancewear?

Hi everyone! I am returning to the forums to ask you all some questions. But first, some back story.

I and two other dance buddies are attempting to start a belly dance costume business. We've got a good start on our inventory and have made some pretty decent sales so far. But we want to start off on the right foot so we're considering a lot of different things we can change now and firm up as the business begins to establish itself.

One thing we're considering is our pricing. We want our items to be affordable. However, we don't want people to see them as "cheap" based on the price. We've heard many times that a seller will raise their prices only to see their sales go up because of the perceived higher value.

For example, some of our items:
-Stretch velvet tie front choli top with short sleeves: $20
-Stretch velvet tie front choli top with 3/4 sleeves and ruffly detail: $25
-Accent skirts: $15
-Simplicity hip scarves (a pretty fabric, no fringe): $10
-Simple hip scarves (1 fringe and 1 trim): $20-$25
-Deluxe hip scarves (2 fringes and 1 trim): $30+
-Tiered skirts 16 yards and up start at $110. Our most expensive right now is a 17 yard skirt using special fabric for $145
-Crochet zill mufflers: $5
-Reversible zill bags: $8

You can see our shop in action at TheGypsyAssassins on Etsy
(we're also working on getting better product pictures, we just don't have a better space yet!)

Many of our items like hip scarves and skirts are limited quantity using unique fabrics we come across. We sometimes have "vintage" fabrics that have been sitting patiently in a closet for 15+ years just waiting to be made into something stunning. But some items, like our choli tops, are made with standard fabrics using the same pattern so they are not one-of-a-kind but can be custom made in different colors, with more bust room, different sleeve option, etc. We take a lot of consideration towards busty, bootyliscious, plus and petite dancers because the three of us all have special size considerations we deal with.

So a few specific questions:
1) Do you expect to pay extra for something custom? What custom things do you expect to pay more for?
2) Do you expect to pay extra for something made for unique body types? How much extra do you feel is reasonable?
3) What do you expect to pay for a standard costume item like a stretch velvet top, chiffon harem pants, etc.?
4) In your opinion are we charging too much? Not enough? Just right?

Also any other thoughts you all might have in this area. I know this is a pretty open question so feel free to take it and roll with it!

Thanks!

Prices look pretty good to me. If there were beading and such I would expect you to charge more but I would buy one of your cholis or skirts.

Prices look fair, the quality looks good, and I wish you the best of luck with your business.

But since you asked for feedback...I have to say that I find the name to be a total turnoff, and that would likely make me choose a different vendor to shop from if I were in the market for items like these.

Originally Posted by Monica

Prices look fair, the quality looks good, and I wish you the best of luck with your business.

But since you asked for feedback...I have to say that I find the name to be a total turnoff, and that would likely make me choose a different vendor to shop from if I were in the market for items like these.

I agree, these items are nice but they aren't so one of a kind that I wouldn't spend my money with a different vendor with a more palleteable name.

Anyone mind giving some feedback on the name, since it's been mentioned twice so far?

Well, OK you asked. Every time I see the word "gypsy" applied to anything other than Gypsy in the sense of the actual people it makes me uncomfortable. Combined with "assassins" and used to advertise dancewear it just makes me roll my eyes and go 'oh god not this ignorant crap again'.

Yes, yes, dressing up in swishy skirts and big earrings is fun and there's a history of people in theatre calling themselves gypsies, but Gypsies are real people not just fantasy characters; and some people find the term perjorative as well. I mean, why don't you call it Pikey Productions? Or GyppoJihadist? And if you find those names offensive, well ... as soon as I saw Gypsy Assassin they were what sprang to my mind. Because it seems to be trying too hard to be, I don't know, happy skippy jumpy fantasy about dancing round campfires but ooooh edgy too, because we are ASSASSINS and we KEEEL you with, uh, our stretch pants.

I think possibly both terms are extremely loaded and put together they're kind of... for a lot of people they're offensive and for me, they're just offputtingly ill-considered. I would have to like a pair of stretch pants or a dance top a lot to want to buy it if it was called "gypsy" anything.

I'll comment on the name. It stood out to me in an unpalatable way as well. I wouldn't not buy from you based on your name, but I thought it was sort of off-color.
The term "gypsy" is really fading out of politically correct norms. Its a pejorative term used to describe the Roma. As our collective awareness has increased around the continuing plight against ethnic Roma people across Europe, the term Gypsy has lost its appeal. I think critically conscious dancers also shy away from the term now is because the skirts, tie tops, and fringy scarves we used to call "gypsy" are part of an inaccurate racial profile. There's some momentum to disassociate from using "gypsy" as an adjective and to move away from what essentially amounts to cultural appropriation--using an inaccurate ethnic term/slur to name costumes and dances that represent an antiquated stereotype of Roma people/culture.
Secondly you guys use the word assassins. So was this to sound edgy? Your designs aren't edgy. They're nice and unique but I was expecting something more fashion forward or creative. Otherwise it sounds like a double slur. You're either implying that you kill gypsies (bad) or that gypsies are killers (bad).
Hope this sheds some light on what might turn people off about your name.
On a side note, congratulations on getting the nerve up to launch a business. I think its smart to ask for feedback. You have some nice items for sale. I hope this is successful for you!

Thanks for the feedback. That's defiantly NOT what we were going for and good to know! I guess the name makes more sense to us than it does to others. Another interesting thing we've found is that many other sellers on Etsy have told us that they love the name! Interesting how the dance community seems to feel the exact opposite!

The name bothers me on two levels. As others have pointed out, the word "Gypsy" is problematic. Society as a whole may not consider it a loaded word, but the Roma and the people who respect their cultures do. "Gypsy" is as derogatory as the N-word, even if it lacks the public awareness. The other problem is that it's not clear if "The Gypsy Assassins" is supposed to conjure up an image of "assassins who are also Gypsies" or "assassins who specialize in Gypsies as targets." The first implication is a just an unusual choice of words involving an ethnic slur, but the second one could easily be interpreted as alluding to the knowledge that the Roma have been victims of several mass-extermination attempts throughout history. I actually find this ambiguity more troubling than the use of "Gypsy" as a general concept.

Originally Posted by dima

Another interesting thing we've found is that many other sellers on Etsy have told us that they love the name! Interesting how the dance community seems to feel the exact opposite!

Don't forget it's the dance community that is your client base.

Originally Posted by beafarhana

Don't forget it's the dance community that is your client base.

Yes exactly, that's why I am seriously considering the feedback about the name and sharing it with the others. It is not falling on deaf ears, believe me!

Originally Posted by beafarhana

Don't forget it's the dance community that is your client base.

That's exactly what I was going to point out- if you're targetting Etsy sellers as your client base, then the name is a good choice, since people there may like it, simply because the general public probably doesn't undertand the implications. If belly dancers are your client base, then you might want to rethink the name, based on the feedback here (not 1 positive comment on the name, but a whole lot of totally valid and specific reasons why it may not be a great choice.

On a separate note, I like your stuff, I like your prices, and would consider ordering from you. Congratulations on your new business!

What *did* you guys hope to evoke with the name Gypsy Assassins? What do the Etsy folks like about the name? What positive feedback have you gotten about your products, and your brand? These might be useful questions if you decide to change your name and consider how you want to brand your products.
Just trying to steer the conversation back to ways to help you structure your brand & business so you still get the feedback you're looking for.

Originally Posted by dima

Thanks for the feedback. That's defiantly NOT what we were going for and good to know! I guess the name makes more sense to us than it does to others. Another interesting thing we've found is that many other sellers on Etsy have told us that they love the name! Interesting how the dance community seems to feel the exact opposite!

Since areas of our dance are influenced by the Roma/Romani/"Gypsy" people, we should be more aware of the issues surrounding this racial misnomer than the general public/the average Etsy seller. I was kind of shocked to find that you didn't/don't know that it is a problematic label for a race of people. When I saw it attached to a negative profession it hit me like I'd seen a line of clothing calling itself "Jew Shysterwear"

There are Roma people who do self-identify as "Gypsy" but as we (and I suspect you) are outsiders to the race and culture, it's best for us to tread lightly in how we label, much less appropriate labels for our own use.

Am I right in thinking that in making that name you weren't really aware that the name belongs to a race of people and is a misnomer of sorts?

Continuing the digression:
Dancers have been beaten over the head for years: Gypsy, BAD! Say ROMAN! So we are all kind of sensitive to it.

But plenty of <cough> Gypsy people prefer it to Roman--because they are another ethnic group (Sinti, for example). Kind of like calling all Indians Apache. Indians were called Native Americans for a while, and it wasn't that popular with the Indians themselves--they weren't effing Americans, after all; they predated America. The final consensus was, Indian was just fine, thank you.

I teach college and every time I say Indian I see the class cringe--the nice little white kids want to say Native American. I also say black, rather than African American--they cringe then, too. But heck, many people are NOT--they are Haitian American, or any number of other things--or they are from another country altogether.

So now you find a plethora of Gypsy references FROM Gypsy people--it is being reclaimed in the way that queer has been or--dare I say it--belly dance. There is a Gypsy music festival in NYC, and a thousand Gypsy bands. It is now OK to call a Gypsy a Gypsy--if that's what they call themselves. As with queer, intent, context, and tone mediate the term. So Gypsy is no longer quite comparable to the N word in the greater world.

In the same vein, I am not a Gypsy person, so I would not apply that term to myself--much as I might want to. I mean, who didn't get into this dance via orientalist romanticism? But we who stay learn and grow. I might describe a dance as Gypsy Fantasy if that's what it is, and when I teach Turkish Roman I will call it that--because that's accurate--but I will put Gypsy in parentheses, b/c that's what people understand.

So you get a different, more educated perception here. You will continue to get flak for the name (I mean, yeah, it's a romantic image--but...). If dancers are your market, you might want to think about that. There are also plenty of people, even in BD, who don't know and couldn't care less, and they will not be bothered. It's totally your call.


As to the clothes, they look well-cut, simple and straightforward. The prices are reasonable. If the price gives you a living wage (and includes shopping, marketing and design time), then keep it. You can always charge more for choice fabrics and/or custom work.

Besides the afore mentioned issues with "Gypsy", "Assassins", and the combination of the words, I would just not have linked them to dance or dancewear. It sounds like something from a violent action movie or someone's team for paintballing or a first-person shooter video game.

Originally Posted by indigostars

Besides the afore mentioned issues with "Gypsy", "Assassins", and the combination of the words, I would just not have linked them to dance or dancewear. It sounds like something from a violent action movie or someone's team for paintballing or a first-person shooter video game.

LOL! I see it as a dark, tribal-esque image, plus the SOUND of it is great--rolls right off the tongue. I can see why they chose it.

Originally Posted by alia t

Continuing the digression:
Dancers have been beaten over the head for years: Gypsy, BAD! Say ROMAN! So we are all kind of sensitive to it.

But plenty of <cough> Gypsy people prefer it to Roman--because they are another ethnic group (Sinti, for example). Kind of like calling all Indians Apache. Indians were called Native Americans for a while, and it wasn't that popular with the Indians themselves--they weren't effing Americans, after all; they predated America. The final consensus was, Indian was just fine, thank you.

I teach college and every time I say Indian I see the class cringe--the nice little white kids want to say Native American. I also say black, rather than African American--they cringe then, too. But heck, many people are NOT--they are Haitian American, or any number of other things--or they are from another country altogether.

What has been drilled into me regarding the label of Gypsy is that I have to be flexible in my terminology, aware that groups and individuals within the race and culture will have conflicting views, but it is best for me to first default to whatever I have been told is the most politic and then be ready to adjust that term when encountering those within the group who prefer to be identified in another way....which you touch on.

The terminology you use in class, and has been accepted/approved by members of those racial/cultural groups in your class, may not be terms those same students would accept if it you changed the context and didn't use it for the group of people but instead appropriated it for a clothing line, a restaurant, a dance club etcetera.

"Gypsy" can be problematic and contentious when it refers to the people themselves...it becomes more problematic when it is attached by non-Gypsy/Roma/Romani people to things, fashions, holistic health care products, behaviours due to ideas, stereotypes, images, and false mythology around the Roma/Romani /Gypsy/Ect.

This is all very good feedback, thanks!

We were definitely going for the stylistic feel of "gypsy" or as Alia T put it a "dark, tribal-esque image" or how we think of it which is a typical Renaissance Faire ethnic look with a twist. Our items are heavily inspired by our experiences at Ren faires where we are trouble makers, carry weapons and jokingly take assassination offers. We also look like "gypsies" to people at faire, so we get coined that all the time. Instead of running around telling people "don't call us that, it's offensive" and giving a big history lesson we embraced it and turned it into something very tongue-in-cheek. The faire we dance at is a fantasy one with elves, ogres, fae, pirates, etc. so we're not supposed to be historically accurate. People expect fantasy characters like us, so it's always worked well in that context.

BUT if the belly dance community feels strongly about it as being offensive or just plain a bad name then that's important to consider that it may not translate well for this use. The people that seem to like the name also don't seem to be verse in dance history and culture. It's two totally different demographics. Obviously we're catering to dancers, so we're looking at the name differently now. However we would still need to convey a certain style, so that's something we need to work on when considering a name change. Our marketing will have to change too, so we're not jumping into a name change simply because we want to make the right choice before changing anything. These are all things we've been considering as we hunker down and get serious about this business.

Originally Posted by dima

Instead of running around telling people "don't call us that, it's offensive" and giving a big history lesson we embraced it and turned it into something very tongue-in-cheek. The faire we dance at is a fantasy one with elves, ogres, fae, pirates, etc. so we're not supposed to be historically accurate. People expect fantasy characters like us, so it's always worked well in that context.

The main problem with lumping "Gypsies" in with those other groups is that the race of people is real (not fantasy) and that while they have a history, they also exist in the here and now.

Yes, many people are unaware that "Gypsy" are real, alive, and complex...not fantasy characters only existing in the past....and that problem that is not easy to tackle but it is a problem that can be helped by not keeping a false-fantasy alive in people's minds or adding to the incorrect assumptions/ideas. When that idea fades more, the voice of who the Gypsy/Roma/Romani people are can be better heard.

We're not saying "OMG, lecture everyone about the G People! And go flog yourself" we're saying "Think about your name and ask if it may possibly compound the confusion around a race of people...a race, btw, that has enriched the music and movement vocabulary of aspects of our dance."

We're not making the choice for you, just saying to make your choice from a more informed location.

Originally Posted by dima

BUT if the belly dance community feels strongly about it as being offensive or just plain a bad name then that's important to consider that it may not translate well for this use. The people that seem to like the name also don't seem to be verse in dance history and culture. It's two totally different demographics.

It's not JUST the dance community....the dance community is just slightly more aware of the issues around the word than the general public.

UT Feature Story -- What's in a Name?: Professor takes on roles of Romani activist and spokesperson to improve plight of his ethnic group

http://radoc.net/radoc.php?doc=news&lang=enen

Originally Posted by dima

We also look like "gypsies" to people at faire, so we get coined that all the time. Instead of running around telling people "don't call us that, it's offensive" and giving a big history lesson we embraced it and turned it into something very tongue-in-cheek.

There's a middle ground between adopting the name for yourselves and lecturing people at a rene faire. "We're not Gypsies... but thanks!" is not a bad start.

Well like I said the name is becoming a clear problem now, so that's a major consideration at this point. One of many things we need to work on.

i wanted to say that i love your cholis. i really like the longer sleeved ones. you also have a hip scarf that i really want sigh. i thought your prices were good & they are within what i can afford so thank you.

i'm not going to address the name as i think the posters above me already did a good job on that one.

my only business comment would be your shipping. as i live in canada it would be nice to know at a quick glance if an etsy shop ships to canada & if so what they would charge for shipping. this actually is an etsy pet peeve of mine. when i'm shopping on etsy i normally have to find more than one vendor & then contact them to see if they ship to canada. then i have to wait to hear back. where as if it was stated in the policies or somewhere in their shop i wouldn't even bother to ask.

Originally Posted by GypsyStacey

i wanted to say that i love your cholis. i really like the longer sleeved ones. you also have a hip scarf that i really want sigh. i thought your prices were good & they are within what i can afford so thank you.

i'm not going to address they name as i think the posters above me already did a good job on that one.

my only business comment would be your shipping. as i live in canada it would be nice to know at a quick glance if an etsy shop ships to canada & if so what they would charge for shipping. this actually is an etsy pet peeve of mine. when i'm shopping on etsy i normally have to find more than one vendor & then contact them to see if they ship to canada. then i have to wait to hear back. where as if it was stated in the policies or somewhere in their shop i wouldn't even bother to ask.

Thanks! We've designed our choli tops with a lot of things in mind like the dreaded underboob! A band on the bottom of the top (and sizing as necessary) solves that problem. YAY! I'm a DD so this is pretty awesome to me! We will also be exploring other sleeve options and trying to make our items unique and fun. We're really excited about it. We have so many costuming peeves and fun ideas we want to address and share with others.

As far as the shipping thing I see what you mean. We've already shipped to some far off places so we can do Canada, but it would help to make that more clear in our shop info and maybe some more info on international shipping. We learn something new every day! Thanks!

Originally Posted by dima

Thanks! We've designed our choli tops with a lot of things in mind like the dreaded underboob! A band on the bottom of the top (and sizing as necessary) solves that problem. YAY! I'm a DD so this is pretty awesome to me! We will also be exploring other sleeve options and trying to make our items unique and fun. We're really excited about it. We have so many costuming peeves and fun ideas we want to address and share with others.

As far as the shipping thing I see what you mean. We've already shipped to some far off places so we can do Canada, but it would help to make that more clear in our shop info and maybe some more info on international shipping. We learn something new every day! Thanks!

great now i want your pants too ~sigh~

even a comment like please contact for an exact price for international shipping & i'd be all over your shop like white on rice. when i see just US costs listed & no other mention of other shipping options i often think they don't ship outside the US & some shops don't. i know that shipping costs vary so i'm okay to contact the buyer for price.

Thanks for being open enough to hear feedback on your name. It's difficult to make those changes, especially if you've already done any of the legal groundwork like business licenses or DBA filings. Best of luck on your business.

Looks like there's been feedback on the name part so I'll stick to your questions:

1) Do you expect to pay extra for something custom? What custom things do you expect to pay more for?
2) Do you expect to pay extra for something made for unique body types? How much extra do you feel is reasonable?
3) What do you expect to pay for a standard costume item like a stretch velvet top, chiffon harem pants, etc.?
4) In your opinion are we charging too much? Not enough? Just right?


Yes..if something is made for me , yes I expect to pay more and will gladly do so. You're not a factory and you are doing the work yourself,make sure to compensate yourself. I'd expect to pay more on anything custom especially sizing

2) Not sure I can give a markup on custom based on size but I'd assume busty and plus size would cost more simply because it uses more materials. This is an excellent niche market!!!

3) I think you should raise your prices..think ahead to selling wholesale or to resellers, you want to allow enough room to pay yourself.

Do you have a facebook page?

Thanks Jes, that's good feedback from a successful lady such as yourself!

We did start a Facebook under the same name and had just started tossing around the idea of a blog.

Originally Posted by dima

Anyone mind giving some feedback on the name, since it's been mentioned twice so far?

Just had a chance to check back on this thread, and am grateful for all the eloquent replies. I think most of the things I was taken aback by with my initial response have been covered.

I would like to add that while some folks do self-describe as Gypsy (as a description of ethnicity), as a non-Gypsy person I have found it preferable to not use the term. If someone tells me to call them that, cool, but why push it? I am reminded a bit of friends who use the word queer to describe their identity, not just to reclaim it from being a slur to describe sexuality (though that is part of it) but also as a larger spectrum of who they are in this world. I also have older lesbian friends who find the word queer really, really offensive, and it seems...prudent, respectful, kindhearted and smart to not choose to use that word to describe GBLT acquaintances until they give some direction of their own preferences.

I know that is not a perfect correlation, but maybe it adds some additional context. Some people who fall under the ethnic Gypsy umbrella have clearly asked outsiders not to use the term, often in formal ways via statements from representative organizations. Others like it. When there are real people (especially real marginalized people), I'll err on the side of caution and kindness. As belly dancers we are often attuned to the subtleties of language and naming ('ooh, belly dance, wink wink, stay away from my husband ha ha!'). I know folks who have a lot of attachment and intense loyalty to using the word Gypsy to define themselves as free spirits in terms of fashion or lifestyle. I get it to a point--it is certainly evocative as a fantasy--but I honestly find the intensity somewhat puzzling when the facts are laid out.

Thanks for being open enough to hear feedback on your name. It's difficult to make those changes, especially if you've already done any of the legal groundwork like business licenses or DBA filings. Best of luck on your business.

Agreed!