Thread: ASCAP?

I have been getting letters and phone calls recently from ASCAP telling me that I must submit payment for use of music for bellydancing.Has anyone else gotten a letter from them and what did you do? I am pretty sure that they do not have licensing rights for any of the music I dance to. Also, I am not hosting shows or anything of this nature. Just dancing in my private studio. What are your thoughts?

Originally Posted by mrsnj20

I have been getting letters and phone calls recently from ASCAP telling me that I must submit payment for use of music for bellydancing.Has anyone else gotten a letter from them and what did you do? I am pretty sure that they do not have licensing rights for any of the music I dance to. Also, I am not hosting shows or anything of this nature. Just dancing in my private studio. What are your thoughts?

Are you teaching classes or students?

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

Are you teaching classes or students?

Not at this time. It seems people in my area are not very interested in Egyptian style dance, so I do not currently have classes.
I looked at their website to see if they could be of service in the future, but none of my songs are in their repitoire so I cannot see how paying ASCAP for licensing would fit my needs. Does anyone here have an ASCAP policy or know of any commonly used bellydance songs that they have licensing rights for?

If all you are doing is dancing for yourself in a private setting, then you do not need to get a license for the music. For-profit public performances (with a few exceptions), including giving lessons, you need a license. However, if you are being paid by a business--for example, a restaurant gig--then that business is responsible for having obtained the license, not you. What exactly does the letter say? Does it mention you by name? (disclaimer: I am an attorney, but this is just general information, not legal advice)

Originally Posted by mrsnj20

I have been getting letters and phone calls recently from ASCAP telling me that I must submit payment for use of music for bellydancing.Has anyone else gotten a letter from them and what did you do? I am pretty sure that they do not have licensing rights for any of the music I dance to. Also, I am not hosting shows or anything of this nature. Just dancing in my private studio. What are your thoughts?

Originally Posted by iamdancer

Maybe someone of your friends recommend you.

Yes, someone probably did. There are many people around who are hateful and spiteful. I don't even have a dance studio. lol
It's not worth it for me to pay $200 a year or so just to dance at a hafla.

Originally Posted by cascading_stars

If all you are doing is dancing for yourself in a private setting, then you do not need to get a license for the music. For-profit public performances (with a few exceptions), including giving lessons, you need a license. However, if you are being paid by a business--for example, a restaurant gig--then that business is responsible for having obtained the license, not you. What exactly does the letter say? Does it mention you by name? (disclaimer: I am an attorney, but this is just general information, not legal advice)

It does mention my dance name. I do have a website, but am not actively advertising classes. I just left it up in case I have time to pursue dance in the future. Right now I work 5o hours a week and take 18 hours of college classes per term. That's why I am a little confused as to why they are contacting me and threatening me. I have only even danced at a halfa 1 time in the past year.

Originally Posted by cascading_stars

IFor-profit public performances (with a few exceptions), including giving lessons, you need a license.

I think the question is, what if none of the music you are using is in ASCAP's catalog?

For example, (and this is a little silly) what if you're teaching Ghawazee and ALL of the music comes from Alexandra's field recordings. If you have arranged to license the music from Alexandra to use said music, why is it necessary to pay BMI, ASCAP, or any other licensing agency to use this music?

Although I understand you need to have permission to use the music you use in class, I'm really not clear on what the law is when it concerns the licensing agencies and music or recordings not in their catalog.

As far as I know, ASCAP is a voluntary organization that provides copyright advocacy services (collecting and distributing royalties, assisting in copyrights disputes, lobbying relevant legislation, etc.) on behalf of its members. If you're not a member, they have no direct jurisdiction to get involved in protecting you or your work. In other words, unless Alexandra claimed she had a right to her field recordings' ownership as compositions and subsequently filed them through ASCAP, ASCAP may as well be the Elks Lodge. The only way they would come up is through precedent in a copyright dispute, and then, I'm sure they'd be quick to point out that if you weren't a member, it's your own fault you're in this situation because their umbrella doesn't cover you. Your copyright still stands without them, but you don't have access to their muscle.

I'm not sure ASCAP is the right bottleneck to discuss in terms of field recordings anyway. ASCAP is primarily a composers' rights union, not a musicians' or recordings' rights union, so I think the playing of field recordings is probably more of a BMI/RIAA issue, especially when we're talking about public-domain songs. The bottom line is that there are multiple unions out there. It's possible for a musician to be under someone else's umbrella, or under more than one umbrella in different capacities. More water muddying here: https://www.thescl.com/performing_rights_and_wrongs
FAQs General Licensing :: SESAC

In our case, it's probably safe to assume that most commercially made/sold music in the US is under someone's protection, unless it's a small-time operation and you know otherwise (i.e., your drum circle made a record in your garage or something). The kicker is the part about their protecting "...members of foreign performing rights organizations who are represented by ASCAP in the United States." Does the Egyptian Lyricists and Composers Association (جمعية المؤلفين والملحنين) have reciprocity with ASCAP? Probably, but I don't know. I can't find anything that looks like an official web site for them and they don't seem to have an ar.wikipedia page.

We had a huge discussion of this in our area last year when ASCAP started to come after some people. I don't know what happened because no one ever said, but it caused a hoopla as people discussed it. It affects mainly teachers and event organizers. People dancing at the hafli probably wouldn't be prosecuted - I think it would be the venue or event organizer.

I believe that the following are true:
1.) If you dance in a restaurant, the restaurant or nightclub probably has an ASCAP license - or is required to have one.
2.) If you and your students all purchase the music, then you can use it in your class without paying for an ASCAP license.
3.) If you have a letter giving permission to you for your use from the copyright holders, then you do not need ASCAP licenses.

1) Correct. A business needs to have a license to play music.

2) Not correct. Copyright involves not only the right to copy, but also the right to publicly perform a work. Playing a piece in a public setting (such as in a class open to the public) constitutes a public performance, and must be licensed.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

We had a huge discussion of this in our area last year when ASCAP started to come after some people. I don't know what happened because no one ever said, but it caused a hoopla as people discussed it. It affects mainly teachers and event organizers. People dancing at the hafli probably wouldn't be prosecuted - I think it would be the venue or event organizer.

I believe that the following are true:
1.) If you dance in a restaurant, the restaurant or nightclub probably has an ASCAP license - or is required to have one.
2.) If you and your students all purchase the music, then you can use it in your class without paying for an ASCAP license.
3.) If you have a letter giving permission to you for your use from the copyright holders, then you do not need ASCAP licenses.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

We had a huge discussion of this in our area last year when ASCAP started to come after some people. I don't know what happened because no one ever said, but it caused a hoopla as people discussed it. It affects mainly teachers and event organizers. People dancing at the hafli probably wouldn't be prosecuted - I think it would be the venue or event organizer.

I believe that the following are true:
1.) If you dance in a restaurant, the restaurant or nightclub probably has an ASCAP license - or is required to have one.
2.) If you and your students all purchase the music, then you can use it in your class without paying for an ASCAP license.
3.) If you have a letter giving permission to you for your use from the copyright holders, then you do not need ASCAP licenses.

#3- I know this is screwy, it's so much fun being a singer/songwriter and deciding whether you want to sign up under ASCAP- even the composer/lyricist/original singer can't perform *their own songs* if the venue isn't licensed. There are many artists out there who basically avoid ASCAP because it's just not worth it to them- and as long as they're a member, it's my understanding they can't sign away rights which they've joined ASCAP to protect.

Originally Posted by Lara L

even the composer/lyricist/original singer can't perform *their own songs* if the venue isn't licensed.

Originally Posted by cascading_stars

2) Not correct. Copyright involves not only the right to copy, but also the right to publicly perform a work. Playing a piece in a public setting (such as in a class open to the public) constitutes a public performance, and must be licensed.

This is why the public hates the music industry. If it were up to the RIAA and their buddies, you'd have to pay every time you got a riff of a song stuck in your head. Most normal people would figure that if everyone in the class owned a licensed copy of a record, playing that record when you're all in a room together is a fair use, the turnip has been sufficiently bled, and no one is being defrauded of any right to compensation because everybody paid a full amount for a legal right to listen. It's not the same thing as a performance, where there's new value added by virtue of it being a live presentation, and it's not the same thing as playing a song for someone who doesn't own the record and you're somehow sublimating their need to go out and buy a copy. Then again, normal people don't confuse a cell phone ringing with a concert.

I'm sorry the music industry plays this game of accusing their consumers of being thieves and shrieking about "supporting the artists," when they really want this money to support their bloated, stupid, and sometimes corrupt bureaucracy. People don't object to giving the artists fair due. It's the labels' paranoid, money-sucking DRM stuff they hate. Thank goodness other businesses aren't like this. I'd hate to have Levi Strauss accuse me of unlicensed public performance of their creative property every time I wore a pair of jeans out of the house.

Is it possible they are just fishing? They sent me an invoice to pay for licensing music, and clearly they didn't know anything about me. I don't remember the details, but they invoiced for a ridiculously large amount of students (100 or 500). Um, yeah. I figured they were just looking online for dance studios and found me. I filled out their questionnaire and didn't pay the invoice. I haven't heard back from them in two years.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I'd hate to have Levi Strauss accuse me of unlicensed public performance of their creative property every time I wore a pair of jeans out of the house.

Extreme LOL!

I wonder if this could be fraudulent--plain ol' thievery and ID theft? Did anything actually mention you by name or have any identifying information? I'd be tempted to file the letter away and wait for a more detailed follow-up. If you actually get something, call them yourself. If not, toss it.

That is an interesting thought...has anyone actually contacted someone from these letters to see if it really is the ASCAP? I know my spam inbox often gets things from "paypal" or "usps" (which I never open) sent by scammers who hope I will open an email from a famous name. Is it possible someone is just looking up random studio owners and trying to fleece them using an official looking document?

Reyveka

Yes. I kept creeping up the food chain with my logical arguments until I was deemed to small and bothersome to deal with - in a "time value of money" sort of way. Low hanging fruit is the sweetest.

Torbeau is correct on all points, except for the one point that has already been discussed. It does not matter if 100 students purchased the same recording and you are listening to it together..you are charging money for the class in which it is used so you must pay.
My husband is a member of ASCAP and I have seen both sides and in my opinion they are really out for just themselves.
I have spoken with ASCAP personally because I thought I may need their services but most of the music that I used to play in my studio was independent music by an artist whose permission I had to use their music in my classes.
ASCAP does have a list of artists and I know for a fact that Hossam Ramzy is an ASCAP member ( or was as of 2009).
I would not take this lightly or as a phishing scheme as ASCAP can be very awful to deal with.
Just contact them and try to be super sweet and nice to the rude representative and explain the situation.
FYI, in order to be "legal" using licensed music dance studios, bars, restaurants, clubs, etc must maintain current memberships with ASCAP, BMI, & SESAC. All of them!

The ultimate best thing to do is use music that is registered under "Creative Commons". This REALLY pisses off ASCAP & Co.

Originally Posted by clueless23de

Torbeau is correct on all points, except for the one point that has already been discussed. It does not matter if 100 students purchased the same recording and you are listening to it together..you are charging money for the class in which it is used so you must pay.

Sorry I wasn't clearer. I know the music industry applies a far more inclusive definition of "performance" than what common sense and fair use might lead one to believe is enforceable.

Looks like it's my turn...two phone calls, an email, and a snail mail 'packet' telling me that I need to pay a hefty fee (they are way overestimating the number of students I have in class). I have talked to other teachers where I teach about it, but it has mostly turned into commiseration about how dancers are surely the worst paid people in the world, like many of our conversations do :/ ).

Those of you who were contacted, what did you do? I have drafted an email letting them know that I use mostly traditional and public domain music as well as music that is likely not covered under their licenses, along with music from artists I have explicit permission to use in class (three in writing, two verbal). I also included the fact that I would not pay any fees without clearly published information that artists I do use are represented by ASCAP. But part of me wonders if I would be better off just ignoring them, sort of how you would deal with an email scam or a troll (which is exactly how they are coming off to me, their approach is...sketchy). Will they show up at my classes?! Will they keep calling?

Anala, I appreciate hearing your strategy. Would any other folks care to share how you responded and what the outcomes were? Have folks here chosen to pay an annual fee? PMs if you prefer to keep it off board or posting here are fine.

For the record I do support musicians and composers and music publishers being compensated. ASCAP does not feel like the best organization to assure that happens for the artists I use in my classes. It feels more like the worst, in fact.

I have no experience with what ASCAP is trying to do. But, if you are truly not using any musicians covered by them, nothing will happen if they even do decide to show up. My gut says this is bs scar-tactics by them but, again, I have no experience, even second hand, about what they are actually doing.

But note: just because the song itself is traditional and in the public domain DOES NOT mean that the sound recording of it is public domain. There are various levels of copyright involved--the song writer and the actual sound recording. So check carefully that the sound recording is also public.

Originally Posted by Monica

Looks like it's my turn...two phone calls, an email, and a snail mail 'packet' telling me that I need to pay a hefty fee (they are way overestimating the number of students I have in class). I have talked to other teachers where I teach about it, but it has mostly turned into commiseration about how dancers are surely the worst paid people in the world, like many of our conversations do :/ ).

Those of you who were contacted, what did you do? I have drafted an email letting them know that I use mostly traditional and public domain music as well as music that is likely not covered under their licenses, along with music from artists I have explicit permission to use in class (three in writing, two verbal). I also included the fact that I would not pay any fees without clearly published information that artists I do use are represented by ASCAP. But part of me wonders if I would be better off just ignoring them, sort of how you would deal with an email scam or a troll (which is exactly how they are coming off to me, their approach is...sketchy). Will they show up at my classes?! Will they keep calling?

Anala, I appreciate hearing your strategy. Would any other folks care to share how you responded and what the outcomes were? Have folks here chosen to pay an annual fee? PMs if you prefer to keep it off board or posting here are fine.

For the record I do support musicians and composers and music publishers being compensated. ASCAP does not feel like the best organization to assure that happens for the artists I use in my classes. It feels more like the worst, in fact.

Oh, and also still concerned this could be some general scam attempt, especially if they don't mention you by name or give any specifics about how you came to their attention. It's one thing if it's a "I stopped by the studio, heard you playing an ASCAP song, and note that you do not have a license" letter. It's another to get a "you strange lady, pay up." You can check ASCAP prices easily online or by giving them a call. You don't have to give your name and info just to get quotes.

Originally Posted by cascading_stars

I have no experience with what ASCAP is trying to do. But, if you are truly not using any musicians covered by them, nothing will happen if they even do decide to show up. My gut says this is bs scar-tactics by them but, again, I have no experience, even second hand, about what they are actually doing.

But note: just because the song itself is traditional and in the public domain DOES NOT mean that the sound recording of it is public domain. There are various levels of copyright involved--the song writer and the actual sound recording. So check carefully that the sound recording is also public.

Originally Posted by cascading_stars

But note: just because the song itself is traditional and in the public domain DOES NOT mean that the sound recording of it is public domain. There are various levels of copyright involved--the song writer and the actual sound recording. So check carefully that the sound recording is also public.

Great points, I was talking a bit out of my...ear there. ;)

Originally Posted by cascading_stars

Oh, and also still concerned this could be some general scam attempt, especially if they don't mention you by name or give any specifics about how you came to their attention. It's one thing if it's a "I stopped by the studio, heard you playing an ASCAP song, and note that you do not have a license" letter. It's another to get a "you strange lady, pay up." You can check ASCAP prices easily online or by giving them a call. You don't have to give your name and info just to get quotes.

YES. The approach feels sketchy and almost old school mob like. 'Pay up or else' from what is essentially an unsolicited stranger who has called my publicly listed business line phone number and written to my publicly listed business PO Box and email. I am extremely uncomfortable with it.

I was recently approached by ASCAP to pay licensing fees for my studio.

I directed them to the page on my website where I list the music I use for classroom choreographies and pointed out to them that none of the music I use is in their catalog. That seemed to satisfy them for now.

In your case, my understanding is that it's not YOU as a performer who needs to pay ASCAP fees, but the venues where you perform (restaurants/studios/theaters)? This is from ASCAP's website:

Some people mistakenly assume that musicians and entertainers must obtain licenses to perform copyrighted music or that businesses where music is performed can shift their responsibility to musicians or entertainers. The law says all who participate in, or are responsible for, performances of music are legally responsible. Since it is the business owner who obtains the ultimate benefit from the performance, it is the business owner who obtains the license. Music license fees are one of the many costs of doing business.

I suspect they've misunderstood and believe you are teaching. I recommend you

1) Ask them exactly what they think you are doing that requires a license. If it's performance, ask them about the above quote, from their FAQ page at ASCAP - ASCAP Licensing: Frequently Asked Questions

2) Send them a list of the songs in your repertoire and point out that they do NOT represent the artists you are using. In my case, ONE song I use regularly was in their catalog, I told them I'd be happy to stop using that song!

How does one find music (or a list thereof) licensed under "Creative Commons"?

I want to stick it to the greedy bastards any way I can...