Thread: Photographers / How Photos Are Used

Few questions in regards to photographers, and how photos are/can be used.

1) In your opinion/experience what separates excellent, good, and "just" ok photographers? Is it (but not limited to): mood? lighting? camera? angles? artistic eye or lack of? location?

2) What do you look for in a photographer? Why do you pick a particular person/studio to work with? What makes them special (for you)? (I'm not looking for name dropping)

3) What type / style of photos look best on: (a) business cards (b) websites (c) general class notices (d) other

4) Your opinion about inside (studio) photos vs. outside photos? Are outside "professional" enough?

5) Your opinion of photos with props (such as but not limited to): (a) veil (b) balancing prop (i.e. sword, cane, tray) (c) wings (d) other props. Which are good/better for studio or for outdoors or just performance?

6) any other comments/opinions/suggestions you have?

Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by SaNoorah

1) In your opinion/experience what separates excellent, good, and "just" ok photographers?

I want to say mastery of their craft, though that's very vague. The truth is, photographers are artists and they create in different ways. I've known photographers who take fabulous photos with natural light and no editing and others whose artistry comes through in their excellent use of studio lighting and photoshop.

2) What do you look for in a photographer? Why do you pick a particular person/studio to work with? What makes them special (for you)?

For me, it's all about their portfolio. First, is the quality of their portfolio consistent? Occasionally I've seen individual photos I've just loved, but the rest of the photographer's work doesn't show that they can reproduce those results. Second, does the work in their portfolio represent the type of photos I'd like to have? Most photographers have a distinct artistic voice, and I want to find someone whose work has the look I want for my promotional materials.

3) What type / style of photos look best on: (a) business cards (b) websites (c) general class notices (d) other

I think this is a matter of personal taste. It's nice to have a variety of full body, 3/4, headshot, and action shots so that you have a selection to choose from.

4) Your opinion about inside (studio) photos vs. outside photos? Are outside "professional" enough?

I think location photos can look as professional as studio photos, assuming your photographer is used to working on location. The benefit of studio photos is that the background is easier to edit out if you want to use just your own image on your website or business card, but, again, depending on your taste, I think you can also incorporate location shots into promotional materials.

5) Your opinion of photos with props (such as but not limited to): (a) veil (b) balancing prop (i.e. sword, cane, tray) (c) wings (d) other props. Which are good/better for studio or for outdoors or just performance?

Again, it's nice to have some variety. If you're going to want to promote your prop skills, it would be useful to have some professional photos of you using props. Beyond that, veil and wings can be very striking in photographs.

If you're planning to shoot in a studio, make sure to ask the photographer about ceiling clearance. I haven't taken many prop shots indoors because most photogaphers I've worked with have studios with standard ceiling height, and, for photos, you usually need enough clearance not only to handle your prop but to fit it all within the frame of the photographer's backdrop.

On the other hand, I once did a veil/wings shoot in a photographer's house with standard ceilings. The framing was tight, so you can't see the whole veil in the shots, but she was comfortable shooting props in tight quarters and the results were excellent.

Originally Posted by SaNoorah

1) In your opinion/experience what separates excellent, good, and "just" ok photographers? Is it (but not limited to): mood? lighting? camera? angles? artistic eye or lack of? location?

• Photographer's skill at knowing what makes good/bad lighting (whether indoors or out).
• Photographer's skill at using equipment in a way that ensures final photo has vibrant lighting without ugly shadows.
• Photographer's ability to give good instruction to the model, such as "look over here", "suck in your gut", "straighten your necklace", etc. All too many photogs don't notice those details that can make or break a picture.
• Photographer's ability to grasp what the client wants and structure the photo session to provide it. I've known some photogs who had a set routine, and it didn't matter what I said I wanted, they were determined to follow their set routine.
• Photographer's use of high-quality equipment with the knowledge to use it properly.

Originally Posted by SaNoorah

2) What do you look for in a photographer? Why do you pick a particular person/studio to work with? What makes them special (for you)? (I'm not looking for name dropping)

• Their ability to prove to me they can do the things I described in answer to #1.
• I want to see examples of their work that are RELEVANT to what I want for myself. So, I don't give a damn what their wedding photos or senior pictures look like, I want to see what they've done with DANCE (doesn't have to be belly dance).

Originally Posted by SaNoorah

3) What type / style of photos look best on: (a) business cards (b) websites (c) general class notices (d) other

Very simple: Photos that make me look GOOD.

And, avoid photos that look like they came out of a boudoir shoot.

Originally Posted by SaNoorah

4) Your opinion about inside (studio) photos vs. outside photos? Are outside "professional" enough?

I don't particularly like outdoor photos for purposes of promoting belly dance. Although nature is certainly beautiful, I think it can clash a bit with what we're trying to communicate. We typically don't perform out in the woods wearing slinky lycra skirts and bra/belt sets with Swarovski crystals, so why would we shoot our promotional photos there?

Generally speaking, many people have trouble envisioning the thing they want. A prospective client viewing my web site is going to try to envision me dancing at his birthday party. A photo taken at a gig (either real gig or simulated) will help him conjure that image. A photo with a plain studio background is usually okay because he can mentally fill in the plain background with his party guests. But a photo next to a babbling brook? Not so much - the brook will distract this client, creating a sort of cognitive dissonance, because he can't as easily envision his party guests surrounding me.

Outdoor locations are also problematic because my expensive costume might snag on a twig, there's often no place to change clothes or touch up makeup, there's often a need to hike some distance from the car to get to the spot, etc. Logistically, outdoor locations tend to be a pain in the neck.

That said, when I did my most recent photo shoot with Pixie, we did go to a park near her studio to do some of the shots. I thought long and hard about whether to do that, and almost decided not to. The only reason I decided to was that I'd worked with Pixie before on an indoor shoot, and I trusted her vision enough to believe she could bring out my best in an outdoor setting. I wouldn't use an outdoor setting for a photographer I'd never worked with before.

Originally Posted by SaNoorah

5) Your opinion of photos with props (such as but not limited to): (a) veil (b) balancing prop (i.e. sword, cane, tray) (c) wings (d) other props. Which are good/better for studio or for outdoors or just performance?

I think it's best for a dancer on a limited budget to start with propless photos. It's more important to get some good close-ups of the face and some good wider shots of her best costume.

If the dancer already has some fabulous propless shots, then using props in her next shoot could be beneficial to show her versatility.

Props can be problematic outdoors due to wind. Really big props such as wings and veils can be problematic in a small studio that has a small background. If the photographer has a larger background, they may be workable. Anything that involves raising the arms above the head can be problematic if the photographer's studio background is small.

Spins can be problematic in some studios - those backgrounds that extend down across the floor don't always respond well to being pivoted on.

Originally Posted by SaNoorah

6) any other comments/opinions/suggestions you have?

I find that the types of backgrounds I like best are either solid colors or abstract effects. For example, I really like what Lina Jang does with color and smoke machines, and I really like what Sarah Skinner does with color and fabric. But I'm also happy with Pixie's plain white. I'm not so fond of backgrounds that are painted with a fancy picture of some sort, such as a picture of the Pyramids. And, as I said above, not so fond of outdoor scenery because it kind of clashes with the vibe of where we would typically dance.

I tend to be turned off by photographers who tell me they want me to choose the location, and they'll come shoot me there. It turns me off because:

• I don't have a lot of time available to run around scouting locations; I feel that part of the expertise I'm paying the photographer for is to steer me to locations that he has used before, locations that in his experience will work really well.
• I usually interpret this to mean, "I'm not a successful enough photographer to have studio equipment such as professional lighting, and therefore I don't know how to use such tools. However, I've managed to figure out how to shoot in late afternoon outdoor lighting, so let's just do that."

Awesome start ladies, thanks, your insight is appreciated. Keep 'em coming.

Aw, man....you know you're going to get lots of varying opinions on this, don't you? Pictures are SUCH a personal preference.

1) In your opinion/experience what separates excellent, good, and "just" ok photographers? Is it (but not limited to): mood? lighting? camera? angles? artistic eye or lack of? location?

I think the best photographers, for my marketing purposes, are the ones who can shoot people! Sounds silly, but not everyone has that gift. Since I'm dating a photographer and most of his friends are photogs, too, I've been blessed to have an abundance of shutterbugs in my life. My favorites, hands-down, are the ones who make me feel comfortable in front of the camera, pick the right poses for my body type (or help me adjust my poses or their own camera angles), and truly GET my personality and the vibe I'm trying to put out there. They don't have to be an award-winning photographer, but if their images are pleasing to my eye and if they can bring out my best, they're good enough for me.

Also, professional lighting and post-processing makes the difference between a good photo and a great one, to me. Before anybody gets riled up, I'm talking about small adjustments to color, details and (if necessary) minor skin blemishes, NOT creating glowing "Barbie skin" or giving digital boob jobs and tummy tucks. Those details too can distract from an image.

2) What do you look for in a photographer? Why do you pick a particular person/studio to work with? What makes them special (for you)? (I'm not looking for name dropping)

I work with a variety of photographers, from dance-specific ones to wedding photographers to high-fashion types. If I like their work, I like it. Plain and simple. Usually, I'll ask my model friends for a reference just to gauge their overall professionalism and make sure I'll feel comfortable and safe shooting with them.

3) What type / style of photos look best on: (a) business cards (b) websites (c) general class notices (d) other

Totally depends on the overall design of your marketing materials, as well as your personal brand and your ideal clientele. Was that un-helpful enough? LOL.

2)For myself i like to choose photographers who make me feel something when i look at their previous shots and isnt just the same thing, poses, bag of tricks over and over and over again so that all the shots start to look the same (but thats also how i like to shoot people so i guess that makes sense and thats just my preference)

4) i think a mix of both are good becuase they are good for different things. but i think outdoor ones have to be done in the right way or mood depending on what you want to use them for.

5) i think some photos w props are good but it shouldnt be ALL props all the time. if they work within the shot concept use them if not dont. always take a mix of shots if you can cuz you never know which will come out awesome.

6) take your time and choose one you love. talk to them about concerns and info about the shoot before hand and speak up about your ideas or what you want to portray. but also let the photographer have some play room. also a mix of commercial and artsy are always nice.

4) Your opinion about inside (studio) photos vs. outside photos? Are outside "professional" enough?

Everyone knows I like location photos for my own marketing, because I open up in a fun location and they fit my personality, which is a little offbeat and colorful. I'm also dying to try some slick studio shots with perfect lighting, because I love how dancers like Sandra and Maria look in their gorgeous studio images. I don't think either one is more or less professional than the other - all depends on the skill and vision of the photographer.

5) Your opinion of photos with props (such as but not limited to): (a) veil (b) balancing prop (i.e. sword, cane, tray) (c) wings (d) other props. Which are good/better for studio or for outdoors or just performance?

I have a lot of pictures with props, but they're all live performance shots. I tend to like posed pictures with props best in clean, uncluttered studio settings. Certain props can look goofy on location. (I'm not sure I'd bring a sword with me to an English garden!) Sometimes, veils and wings can be fabulous in an outdoor setting, if you can get the wind to work for you. Again, it's whatever YOU like best.

6) any other comments/opinions/suggestions you have?

If you like it, then do it! Have fun!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

• I usually interpret this to mean, "I'm not a successful enough photographer to have studio equipment such as professional lighting, and therefore I don't know how to use such tools. However, I've managed to figure out how to shoot in late afternoon outdoor lighting, so let's just do that."

Your first point -- that if you're hiring a photographer they should provide the location -- is certainly valid, but I don't think this second point is. Some photographers specialize in location shoots, and, if a location shoot is what you want, they will often be better able to meet your needs than a photographer who mostly works in-studio. Also, there are some semi-pro photographers out there who don't have their own studio spaces but whose work is as high-quality as any full-time photographer's.

This is why it always boils down to the portfolio for me. If a photographer takes great images, it doesn't matter to me what equipment they use.

Originally Posted by Ainsley

Your first point -- that if you're hiring a photographer they should provide the location -- is certainly valid, but I don't think this second point is. Some photographers specialize in location shoots, and, if a location shoot is what you want, they will often be better able to meet your needs than a photographer who mostly works in-studio. Also, there are some semi-pro photographers out there who don't have their own studio spaces but whose work is as high-quality as any full-time photographer's.

This is why it always boils down to the portfolio for me. If a photographer takes great images, it doesn't matter to me what equipment they use.

I do agree with you that there are some photogs who do beautiful on-location work. I also agree that there are superb photographers who don't happen to have their own studios. And yes, portfolio ultimately tells the story.

But I do expect a professional photographer to own lights and background, and be able to bring them to whatever location I choose for my shoot. Owning the tools of the trade and having sufficient expertise to use them is part of being a professional.

I guess I've just had too many conversations that go like this:

Photog: "I can do your shoot anywhere you like!
Me: "Great! Bring your background and lights to my dance studio which has plenty of room to set everything up!"
Photog: "Um, uh, duh, I don't have a background or lights."
Me: "You don't have your own background or lights? How do you do weddings and portraits?"
Photog: "Well, I do portraits outdoors in the park or the clients' back yards. For weddings I just use the flash built into my camera."
Me: I see. I thought I was talking to a professional photographer. (Well, I've never actually said this, but there have been times I wanted to!)

I see where you're coming from: clearly a photographer who doesn't use a background and studio lighting wouldn't be a good fit for your needs. I just wouldn't equate lack of X equipment with lack of professionalism.

It can definitely be a symptom of lack of professionalism, for instance, if a photographer is targeting a market that typically requires photos taken on a background using studio lighting (e.g. executive photography), but I've met too many photographers who do editorial-quality work using available lighting on location to dismiss anyone who doesn't work with studio equipment as unprofessional.

That said, the phrase "I just use the flash built into my camera" would send me running in the other direction, too!

deleted

Originally Posted by Ainsley

I just wouldn't equate lack of X equipment with lack of professionalism.

I've met too many photographers who do editorial-quality work using available lighting on location to dismiss anyone who doesn't work with studio equipment as unprofessional.

That said, the phrase "I just use the flash built into my camera" would send me running in the other direction, too!

Actually, I do agree with you.

And, as you and I agreed up-thread, ultimately the proof is in the pictures. If someone can show me a portfolio with a large number of beautifully-lit indoor pictures, I really don't care whether he owns the equipment he used to shoot those or not.

I've just been a bit frustrated lately because I've actually been looking around for a local photographer to do some pictures for me, and it's very, very frustrating to waste time talking to people who believe they are qualified for professional photography just because they bought a nice camera. Ie, hobbyists without professional experience who decided they wanted to earn money doing their hobby so they put up a web site to advertise themselves. Sort of like trying to sift through a large number of belly dancers whose performance experience consists of a couple of haflas but are marketing themselves to do wedding gigs just because they bought an Egyptian designer costume on Swap Meet.

One aspect of professionalism is truth in advertising. I would expect someone who only shoots outdoors to say so in their marketing propaganda - or, to say so when I contact them looking for proposals to do a shoot in my dance studio. My bull**** detector goes off when someone says "yes" to shooting in my dance studio but then starts squirming when I ask about equipment.

I'm resisting reading the other replies before I put in my 2 cents as a photographer of belly dance.

#1: All of the factors listed can make the difference. One thing left out is "timing." If you are moving (i.e. dancing) during the photo shoot, a great image is captured at the right time, and a poor image can result from being a fraction of a second early or late. Actually, the same can be said about posed shots too. I've often heard that the difference between a good photographer and an excellent one is that the "excellent" one will only show you the "excellent" shots. Don't expect all exposures taken will turn out well... I would say location is the least important of the ones listed.

#2: I was going to skip this one, but I'll venture some opinions. I like to work with photographers that I like on a personal level. And of course pricing comes into it; If can I get adequate images for price $X, then I may question whether I need to spend 100%, 200% or 300% more, just for a marginal improvement in images. Do you want to spend time in a skimpy costume with someone who is a creep because they have a portfolio or reputation for good pictures? That's your call. Other than basic skills and personality, you have to look at "style." Are you looking for "standard" quality shots, or something that is "wow?"

#3: The best "style" photo for flyers, web, brochures is something "uncluttered." No pillows, hookah, or Moroccan lanterns. Otherwise, it depends on what you want to show off... a headshot may be great for some uses, but a full-body shot with your great costume is also an attention getter. If you want to minimize any perceived flaws, then you adjust what you show in your images...

#4: inside/outside? For general "business" promotions, I'd say you best bet is indoors where the lighting can be controlled. But I've seen and produced some wonderfully dramatic images when the landscape behind the dancer evokes a mood, etc. With item #3, the dramatic outdoor and "set" pieces (i.e. with lots of props) are more "art" and are just as valid;

#5: Yes, use/take props to a photoshoot! Indoors or outdoors. If it's associated with your performance, include them in your pictures! Outdoors with props is much more difficult. At the summer monthly haflas I shoot in San Jose, the wind wrecks havoc on the dancers with veils, and to some extent the swords. Having a nice prop (zills, veils, sword, cane, etc.) gives your hands something to do.

#6: Other suggestions: Tell the photographer you are bringing a friend. For the first shoot, especially if this is the first time meeting the photographer, actually DO bring that friend. Discuss how long after the shoot to expect the photos, and what "rights" you will have to the pictures (the creator of the artwork has the initial Copyright... at least in the USA)

Duane Stevens, (married to dancer “Adira”)
Belly Dancer Photography | pictures from events

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Photog: "Well, I do portraits outdoors in the park or the clients' back yards. For weddings I just use the flash built into my camera."
Me: I see. I thought I was talking to a professional photographer. (Well, I've never actually said this, but there have been times I wanted to!)

Right on - if the photographer thinks the on-camera flash is sufficient, run run away. The on-camera flash is not at a good angle to take photographs - it blows out the foreground, often. Detached flash is the way to go - even better if you can set up multiple lights and reflective surfaces.

Originally Posted by SaNoorah

3) What type / style of photos look best on: (a) business cards (b) websites (c) general class notices (d) other

IMHO, the most important thing is to know what mood you want to convey, and match the photo to that. (Or if you're planning a shoot, go into it with a list.) It doesn't matter how great you look in the photo; if it doesn't send the right message, it's not doing its job.

Depending on what the photo is for, who the intended audience is, and your style, there are lots of things you might want to say: "welcome!" or "this is fun!" or "this is exotic and special" or "I am an edgy artiste" or "I have accurate cultural knowledge" or whatever.