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  1. #91
    Master BHUZzer carolynn's Avatar
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by kamilia View Post
    I'm sorry I misinterpreted what you said. You ARE pointing out the facts of the business, but the facts don't make it impossible. I don't think dancers should be pessimistic about the situation; there are solutions. We CAN get a living wage from restaurants.
    my bad for not being clear in the first place. ,r:;


    my point re being lucky to be paid to be an artist is this:
    although one is entitled to be paid when one does a job, one is not entitled to a job.
    although an artist is entitled to set her price for her work/performance, she is not entitled to make the sale. that is, there is no law of the universe to force people to buy her work/services. she can offer her art to the world at her prices and the world can decline to pay. she then has to decide to lower her price, or to not sell at all.
    she can lower her price and lower her price and lower her price and still not sell. if no one wants to buy, it won't matter what price she puts on it, because there is nothing in the universe that makes her entitled to sell. she’s entitled to offer it for sale. and the world is entitled to not buy.
    if her work sells only at a very low price or not at all, then she has to decide whether to continue struggling to make a living at her art, be a "starving artist", or take another job to pay the bills while she pursues her art for the fulfillment of her soul, and what money she can get for it.
    an artist is lucky when she is able to sell enough of her art at prices high enough to allow her to make a living on her art.
    most artists cannot make a living with their art, or make more than a meager living, hence the artist with a “day job” or the starving artist.
    so, what it really is, is not “I’m lucky I’m paid to do this” but “I’m lucky I’m paid enough to do this that I can make a living doing this.”

    because it is luck. luck being good enough, luck being in the right place at the right time, luck that the market’s taste creates demand for your art. whether or not artist can make a living with her art is not a reflection on the artistic worth of her work. sure, an artist might starve because his “art” is , but it might also happen because the artist it too far out in front of the market’s taste. no one was paying millions for Van Gogh’s work while he was alive. “Irises” was “worth” as much when he painted it in 1889 as it was in 1987 when it sold for $50 million. it just took a hundred years for the price to catch up to its worth.
    Last edited by carolynn; 12-23-2007 at 03:14 AM.


  2. #92
    Master BHUZzer carolynn's Avatar
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    we often conflate "price" and "worth." they are not the same.
    price - the amount of money that is paid for a good or service - is a reflection of worth on the market. price is the meeting point between the seller's worth and the buyer's worth. if the seller's worth and the buyer's worth don't meet, there will be no sale because the lowest price the seller will accept is higher than the buyer is willing to pay.

    it’s the lucky artist whose art’s price matches its worth when the artist is alive and able to take advantage of it.

    but there are more kinds of worth than monetary/market worth. artistic worth, sentimental worth,
    my beat up old teddy bear is worth a lot to me, but her price on the market would be almost nil. she is literally "priceless." no one will pay what she is worth to me.
    and if the price of “Man with a golden helmet” plummeted when it was discovered that it wasn’t painted by Rembrandt, it’s still worth a lot as a brilliant work of art. (of course it has no price because it’s not for sale, but in this case, its market value, what its price would be if it were offered for sale.)


  3. #93
    Established BHUZzer Uulady's Avatar
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    One does not necessarily have the RIGHT to earn a good living, just the right to TRY and earn a good living? Does this make sense? I think this is what you are saying Carolynn? Maybe? Apologies if I am confused.
    One is not owed a good living...you work hard to get what you can? I think this is true. And luck certainly does play a part. ;)


  4. #94
    Established BHUZzer Uulady's Avatar
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    And hopefully the outcome is a good living. ;)


  5. #95
    *maria*
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    I called last night and quit. I told the staff how much I loved working with them.
    They knew why I quit. They totally understand. He doesn't even pay his staff, I found out.

    They were pissed. I got three voice messages from them last night. I'm not answering them nor going back. They even called another dancer to see if I had another phone number. AND, there is no where else to dance. So I'm effectively out of a job.

    I know as sure as I'm sitting here, there will be lots of dancers running in, and we'll see how long they put up with it.

    I used to dance for the owner 5 years ago when he had another place, and everything was fine.

    He opened this place, and I went back after a while, things were great for a bit, then they started going downhill, in regards to

    pay
    sitting around waiting, etc.

    It is just not worth it to me to have to argue for my paycheck. AND sit around for hours.

    Thank you, but NO.

    It's really too bad, because I have lots of people there that go see me. AND they know it, AND I did all the scheduling.

    Once I'm not treated with respect by the owner, I'm gone.

    edited to add: he doesn't NOT have the money. they own another very successful business, and he's buying property.
    Last edited by *maria*; 12-23-2007 at 07:42 AM.


  6. #96
    Ultimate BHUZzer bintbeled's Avatar
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Maria, it sounds like you made the right move. No dancing job is worth being treated with disrespect, and you shouldn't have to argue for your paycheck.

    Latifa


  7. #97
    *maria*
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by bintbeled View Post
    Maria, it sounds like you made the right move. No dancing job is worth being treated with disrespect, and you shouldn't have to argue for your paycheck.

    Latifa
    thanks. We had a HUGE argument last Saturday.
    names and restaurant name left out to protect the innocent.

    Argument:

    Me: Before you leave, (he leaves to go to his other business alot), I need you to leave me a check.
    Owner: Why do you want to know if I'm leaving.
    Me: I need you to leave me a check. You owe me from last week, and then tonight, so that's $130
    Owner: Turns around from the fax machine where he was fiddling around, and STARES ME DOWN!!!!!
    Me: Puts hand on hip, I don't care, I come here, I dance, I get paid. That's $130.
    Owner: Why am I paying you?
    Me: My good looks, that's $130
    Staff: They stare at their feet.
    Owner: Runs in kitchen to cook.

    Later on that night:

    Tons of tables, one big party:When are you dancing, when are youdancing, we are ready to leave.
    Me to Maitre'd (whom has no say in anything): I'm going to dance, they have been waiting and people have been leaving.
    Maitre'd: (Whom I love, by the way) Go ahead, dance.
    Me: Start music, crank it up.
    Owner: COME RUNNING out of kitchen like it was ON FIRE
    GETS IN MY SPACE, and say's
    "WHO told you to go"
    Me: PISSED OFF: I did and the maitre d' did, people are waiting, are you gonna shut my music?"
    Owner: Go ahead, and runs back in kitchen.

    Later that night.

    Me: My check please
    Owner: LIKE IT WAS KILLING HIM, writes me a check.


    then I went in Thursday for a big party. I said to myself, and he doesn't pay me I quit.

    Me: My check please
    Him: I'll pay you next time. I'm buying a house on 4 acres.
    Me: "Next time, huh"
    and I left without a word.


  8. #98
    *maria*
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Gia, I mean Simon, where are you! I need another brass cymbal award. I'm feeling like crap about the whole thing.

    I feel good that I stood up for myself, (nothing unusual there)
    but like crap because I'm out of a job. sob

    (runs off to have temper tantrum)

    FYI:
    http://www.bhuz.com/forum/business-b...ls-awards.html
    Last edited by *maria*; 12-23-2007 at 08:34 AM.


  9. #99
    Ultimate BHUZzer tahiradancer's Avatar
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    maria -

    The fact that the owner is buying a house on 4 acres shoudl have NOTHING to do with his business and his paying you on time and in full. The only reason you should feel sorry for him is if the business is failing for some inexplicable reason. But even then he shouldn't expect you to work for free.

    Okay, there went all my Rogers and Covey training OUT the window. But I haven't had coffee yet. That explains everything!

    {{{HUGS}}}


  10. #100
    *maria*
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Yes Tahira,
    he's always got a BS excuse.
    Big deal....
    Don't care if he's buying 4 acres or an island.
    You have a dancer, you pay them, that night.


  11. #101
    Master BHUZzer carolynn's Avatar
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by maria View Post
    Me: My check please
    Him: I'll pay you next time. I'm buying a house on 4 acres.
    Me: "Next time, huh"
    and I left without a word.
    WTF?
    this guy has his head so far up it he didn't see the sun rise. not paying you b/c he's buying property? um excuse me, sir, how about you don't buy property b/c you have to pay your staff?

    Maria, i'm sorry you had to deal with this . you did right by yourself, quitting. of course that's easy for me to say, because it was your job not mine, but good for you.

    and yeah, some dumb belly bunny will probably run in there and snatch up the job and be thrilled with it, until she figures out she's being treated like a doormat or his patrons start complaining that they want the real belly dancer back.

    that owner seriously needs the


  12. #102
    Master BHUZzer carolynn's Avatar
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by Uulady View Post
    One does not necessarily have the RIGHT to earn a good living, just the right to TRY and earn a good living? Does this make sense? I think this is what you are saying Carolynn? Maybe? Apologies if I am confused.
    One is not owed a good living...you work hard to get what you can? I think this is true. And luck certainly does play a part. ;)
    well, gosh, you just said in a sentence what i blathered pages about. yes, that's it.

    sometimes americans need to be reminded that the third unalienable right is the pursuit of Happiness.


  13. #103
    *maria*
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    AND, I did e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g
    I booked the dancers, smoothed things over, or at least tried to, tried to get him to deal with us in a professional way.
    Told him thousands of times to have a set show time, to call us if there were early parties, not expecting us to have a crystal ball,
    told him he has to pay the dancers when they come in, etc. etc.
    I did alot of work trying to work with him.
    Oh well,
    I'm done. When I make it my mind, that's it.
    I KNOW there will be dancers running in there.
    He's screwed for new years eve, cause I was the dancer cause no one else would do it, because he was only paying regular rates, and I told him I was only staying for two shows then leaving.....

    oh well, his loss.

    AND, I have lots of people there that call in and ask for me by name.


  14. #104
    Official BHUZzer Amaryllis's Avatar
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Samira...you're soooo funny!

    You know me sooo well..all 5'0" 95lbs of pure unadulterated bull dog! Ruff!

    I shouldn't have read his article while PMSing! HA!


  15. #105
    *maria*
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    good news

    had LOOONG talk with the restaurant, and he's agreed to my terms, so I"m back dancing there.


  16. #106
    Ultimate BHUZzer bintbeled's Avatar
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Yay Maria!! So glad to hear that!


  17. #107
    *maria*
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Thanks......


  18. #108
    Master BHUZzer carolynn's Avatar
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers



    whoooo hoooooo! i guess the patrons starting calling for the real belly dancer immediately! i bet it was chaos without you there.


  19. #109
    *maria*
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    I have awesome dancers on the schedule too, who were going to quit too!
    But now we are all happy, 'cause he will pay us the night we are there like it should be, and not keep us waiting around for hours.....


  20. #110
    Advanced BHUZzer Nepenthe's Avatar
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by maria View Post
    No one is entitled to anything, or entitled to get paid.

    However, we pay salaries because that is one of the way's that society shows and values what we do.

    Just because it's "art" does NOT mean it is NOT work, in the broad sense of the word.

    And the sooner artists stop having the attitude of, "I'm so LUCKY to get paid for what I love to do" the better it will be for all of us.

    I just quit the restaurant where I dance because I'm tired of having to argue for my paycheck, among many other reasons. I didn't say,
    "Gee, I"M LUCKY I'm getting paid for this anyway, so, big deal about my pay."

    I am worth every penny of what I get paid, and if I have to argue for it, I'm out of there.

    How demeaning to work and put all your effort into things and then say, gee, I'm LUCKY to get paid.

    If you are good at what you do, in this society, you SHOULD be paid for what you do.
    I agree completely.
    He must have meant "No one is entitled to a job." This is true. But if you do your job, you're entitled to get paid for it. If not, you're entitled to quit!


  21. #111
    roj
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    to address some specifics that came up in this thread (there's a lot of "noise" from people that either didn't read the article or have other issues, and i can't get into that), but here it goes...

    yes, the article is "one sided towards the restaurant." that should be apparent from the subtitle ("a view from across the table"), and the paragraph that reminds you of other available material ("Don't let the restaurant take advantage of you. There are resources out there to help. Some are better than others"). since the other perspective ("side") is covered (in great detail, with great passion) elsewhere, and i only have a couple pages, i hope most of you will forgive me for simply pointing out that there is another side, rather than rehashing everything that's ever been said about restaurant work. i simply don't see much point in sharing a perspective that the intended audience already has (or has available).

    there is a difference between "don't take it for granted" (in the article) and "we are lucky" or "consider yourself lucky." i realize that nuance can be lost in the heat of a good bhuz debate. nowhere in the article does the word "luck" or "lucky" appear. the article is about work, and economics and rational business decisions. luck may be required, but that's outside the scope of the article.

    be wary of imposing your definitions on others. "good" is subjective, and the topic of this article is objective (money). "good" belly dancers may be a draw for a restaurant, but not every restaurant. not every concept of "good" matters - if a "crappy" dancer delivers the audience (and the dollars), that may be "good" enough to get (and keep) the gig. if a "good" dancer dances for an empty dining room, that may be "crappy" enough to get canned.

    there's a semantic (and individual) difference between a "good" rate and a "reasonable" rate. the broad point is that if you demand unreasonable rates, you either won't get the gig, or you won't keep the gig. whether reasonable is "good" enough for you is an individual decision. that said, you don't even get to make that decision unless you're at least in the ballpark (as it were). the ballpark may not be something you can find on a website or a message forum. it might be pretty specific to the restaurant in question.

    a "standard rate" can be dangerous. hamburgers don't have a fixed price regardless of restaurant, and they probably have more in common than many belly dancers. dancer circumstances, restaurant circumstances and economic circumstances vary too much to reduce to a simple, fixed, dollar amount. the point of the article is to give you some background (starting with really simple stuff that is easy to figure out - like the prices on the menu).

    dancers (artists, in general) are not commodities and are not interchangeable. intangibles do matter, but that complicates the economics - which is why it's not discussed in the article.


  22. #112
    *maria*
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    sorry to disagree, but a standard rate is not dangerous.
    that is the argument undercutters like to make.
    don't buy it.
    If we didn't have a standard rate - we'd all be dancing for $20 or less.
    And I read your article, so I'm not making noise.


  23. #113
    roj
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    dollars, however, are commodities and are interchangeable. you actually can compare costs to costs. if you spend dollars on one thing (dancer), you can't spend those same dollars on another thing (chef). that's one of the reasons we use currency.

    if you don't care what a chef makes, i suppose you can't really expect the chef to care what you make. that could be a problem when you try to create a mutually beneficial relationship.

    your responsibilities may vary, depending on the terms of your arrangement with the restaurant.

    the article says "They may not care..." (repeated SIX times). There's a big difference between "may not care" and "just how little anyone cares." since that is so grossly mischaracterized, i can't respond to the rest of the associated comments.

    you cannot control wages or prices in an artistic field any more than you can control the [poor] taste of anyone other than yourself. as pointed out in the article, the taste (or lack thereof) of your audience and employer is probably the most important factor governing your ability to get and keep a gig.

    be wary of assuming a causal relationship where only a correlation (and an anecdotal one at that) is found. technically, belly dance wages are low. careful observation of dancers indicates that they spend thousands of dollars on costumes and classes. whether that money comes from dancing or the day job or a rich spouse or inheritance or a winning lottery ticket or something else is an exercise left to the observer. circumstances vary. your particular circumstances are outside the scope of what i can address in a magazine.

    be wary of assuming a causal relationship where only a correlation is found. pay may be "crappy" for any number of reasons, including local economic conditions, "crappy" dancers, "crappy" restaurant owners, "crappy" audiences, size of the restaurant(s) in question, turnover in the restaurant(s) in question, poor marketing, poor precedents, poor expectations, over supply, lack of demand, or maybe just inadequate negotiating skills. oh yeah, and "undercutting" too.

    as an aside, i've watched the definition of "undercutting" expand over time. that is troublesome for a number of reasons that don't belong in this thread.

    belly dance isn't the only "draw" available to a restaurant. some people will go to a restaurant solely because they have dozens of plasma tvs showing every live sporting event available on satellite at that moment. as an entertainer, you compete with everything that is happening or could happen while you dance, whether you like (or even acknowledge) those things or not. if no one in your town appreciates belly dance, then it's entirely possible that you are not a "draw." that's not your fault, but it does mean that getting "good" pay to dance in a restaurant isn't going to be easy, and that is something you need to know.


  24. #114
    roj
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    the quote is "The phrase 'Starving Artist' isn't some new 21st-century creation, and it applies to belly dance artists as much as any other." many rock stars are financially secure too. the exception doesn't negate the fact that most guitarists aren't.

    it may just be possible that i meant to say precisely what i did write, "With very, very rare exceptions, you deserve to be paid more than you will get paid." you can take that positively (i appreciate your value as dancers, but that doesn't help you) or negatively. that's your call. as i said in the first response here, people will find what they are looking for.

    a belly dancer needs to consider that they will have many expenses when opening their business, and they need to be prepared for the cost of costumes and makeup and gas to get to gigs... but expenses are only half the story. dancers also need to be prepared for the income structure available to them as performers. if the market is insufficient, then they need to decide what, if anything, they are going to do about it, or they need to accept that their "career choice" is not economically viable. there is a reason you don't find white-tablecloth french restaurants in brewster nebraska. there may be a reason you can't get a "good" gig in your area.

    you may have a half-dozen advanced degrees and a "career" in nuclear physics. if you live in nunavut, you can expect to find that there isn't much of a market for nuclear physicists, and you may get paid in fish to clean the bottoms of boats (in the summer).

    be wary of disparaging cooks and wait staff and their "jobs" versus your "career." about 13 million people work in food service in the united states. those people do the jobs that give you the opportunity to dance in a restaurant at all (no cooks, no restaurants. no restaurants, no restaurant dancing). one day, one of them may own or manage a restaurant where you should dance, and they may not appreciate your "job" from the perspective of their "career." oh... and yes, actually some of those people do spend thousands on training and equipment.

    there's a big difference between a show at carnegie hall and a regular paid gig. prestige venues are outside the scope of the article (this is about restaurants). in fact, prestige is outside the scope of the article (this is about money). that said, this is broadly addressed in the article with "most performers either have to wait for someone to include them in a production, or make (and finance!) a production of their own." since it came up - if you want to dance at carnegie, put together a show that's worthy of carnegie and get in touch with clive gillinson or his staff. you're looking at filling about 2800 seats for the big room. it looks like there's about 10,000 registered members on bhuz, so if you can get a quarter of them to new york, you're in good shape.


  25. #115
    roj
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    the comparison of eating a meal and then deciding what to pay (which, by the way, is happening in several places now) is not valid. the more valid comparison is that when you walk by a restaurant and see a hamburger on the menu for $35, you have the option to keep walking to the fast-food joint on the corner. if you ask for $250 to dance in a restaurant with 30 seats and an average cover of $15, you can expect to be invited to keep walking (and it's not about your skills, training, expenses or even all the "undercutting" in your area). you need to decide if it is important to work in that restaurant. if so, you need to understand how to make that possible.

    the article isn't written about any particular market or metro area. it's about restaurant work in general. writing about a particular restaurant or market would be quite useless for the zaghareet audience. i made up an optimistic (and easy-math) example for you, but you have to apply it to your own circumstances. that's the part that says "Restaurants vary, so adjust your estimates accordingly."

    yes, you can ask for as much you want. that doesn't mean someone will pay it.

    you have to decide what a gig is worth to you in terms of money, access to potential clients, prestige, free food, creating a positive perception of the dance, or whatever. if it's a good gig for you, then take it. if not, don't take it.

    on some more personal notes:

    i question the sincerity of those that hope their personally insulting (and by their own admission, uninformed) comments are wrong, but decide to make those comments in a public forum anyway.

    if your motivation is to increase wages, [really basic] microeconomics suggests you can do it in two general ways: increase demand (which means expanding your audience and/or their appreciation for what you do) or decrease supply (which means limiting the number of available dancers). some people decide to increase demand, and work to bring more (new) people to their art. others decide to decrease supply (how that is done is an exercise left to the reader, but i do suggest you stop short of killing each other - that gets messy and adds lots of paperwork). i favor the former approach, in part because i've never seen an example of the latter succeed in the long term and the associated consequences far outweigh any temporary wage increase. if you'd like to discuss efforts that increase demand, quality and perceived value for belly dance, i'm available on a formal or informal basis.

    it is a privilege to do what i do (and not just photographically). i know that. i could be walking 15 miles each morning to get [sort-of] clean water. lots of people do.

    quality writers create drama and give the readers an exciting experience that they talk about (and even write about online). they probably "move paper." they are probably underpaid too.

    now, if you'll excuse me, i have to find my asbestos underwear...

    happy 2008


  26. #116
    *maria*
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    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Roj,
    writing this article, you had to know it was going to cause alot of issues and frank discussion. Bhuz is open to the public, but us dancers come here and discuss things because we feel that it is a relatively safe place for us to discuss things that are important to us.

    I still don't quite get why people are afraid of setting a standard price.

    I will give a personal anecdote:
    Last night was New Years Eve. It is the first time in 12 years I have not danced on New Years Eve.
    Why? The restaurant where I dance refused to pay more than his regular rate.
    Then he expected me to sit around from 6 p.m. to 11 p.m. and possibly only dance one show for $65.00.
    No thank you.
    I decided not to go in. Another dancer took the gig.
    Therefore, he will NEVER pay more than the regular rate on new year's ever because he knows another dancer will do it.
    That is what happens with regular nights too. If an owner can get away with paying half the amount of the "going rate", and dancers are willing to dance for that, it brings the prices down to nearly nothing.

    And I don't think it's a case of
    "too bad, so sad"

    It's about treating your employers, in this case, dancers, well with pay.

    I personally am not willing to sit around for hours on New Years Eve.

    The other restaurant I danced at for years, we got paid $125 bottom line, for New Years Eve. Even if it was just one show.
    I always did the late shows, so I knew I would be there from 9 to midnight.
    None of this: sit around bullsh&t.

    I can't argue the semantics and academics of your article, as I am not an intellectual. I can only argue your points.

    I think it is VITAL for us as a dancing community to stick together in terms of pay, and other issues or we will go nowhere. If we don't - it also brings about the "every dancer for herself" mentality.

    Musicians have a union. they belong to organizations that protect them. Why not dancers.

    The minute we start talking about standard rates, some people just seem to freak out about it.

    I had one women, on a long ago bhuz thread, send me a FEDERAL law guildeline on it. I mean, please, let's get real.
    We're not the mafia here. We are dancers, who know our worth and are demanding better pay and conditions for us.

    What is wrong with that?


  27. #117
    *maria*
    Guest *maria*'s Avatar

    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Just like to add, my family is in the restaurant business, so I see both sides of the coin, and would never disparage cooks, dishwashers, wait staff etc.

    But that doesn't mean I shouldn't expect decent pay and to be valued.


  28. #118
    Master BHUZzer SamiraShuruk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,028

    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by roj View Post
    ...
    a "standard rate" can be dangerous. hamburgers don't have a fixed price regardless of restaurant, and they probably have more in common than many belly dancers. dancer circumstances, restaurant circumstances and economic circumstances vary too much to reduce to a simple, fixed, dollar amount. the point of the article is to give you some background (starting with really simple stuff that is easy to figure out - like the prices on the menu).
    A "standard rate" is the typical rate currently paid in a region. Knowing what the current rates are in your region is not "dangerous". It's a professional responsibility.
    There is a huge difference in "fixed price" or "price fixing" and communicating about rates as they relate to the business. People don't go into the "hamburger selling business" at any level willing to lose tons of money just for the glamor of saying they're a "professional hamburger seller". That is a huge contrast to belly dance.
    Being aware of what all the expenses are and how that relates to rates and running a thriving, long term business is not "dangerous".


  29. #119
    *maria*
    Guest *maria*'s Avatar

    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    THANK YOU Samira.

    exactly the point's I am trying to make. among others.


  30. #120
    Advanced BHUZzer eshe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,909

    Re: Latest Zaghareet - contraversial Article on Restaurant Dancers

    The only thing I see as being dangerous is a baby dancer reading this article and believing in it.

    I charge $110 for a weekly show with no waiting, 1 costume, 1 twenty minute set.

    If someone can't afford it, that's their problem. THEY need to figure out how to increase THEIR business so that THEY can afford ME. Not the other way around.


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