Thread: ...and from a dance teacher, no less!

I recently received an offer to teach for a week at a local high school. I was contacted by the school's dance department director who wants her kids to do learn a different dance form than the normal curriculum. I can respect that.

I responded with my interest and the following about payment: "I do realize that your program probably runs on a very tight budget, especially in these times, so I can be very flexible on rates."

Because I was a public school teacher and have done other high school programs, I know how tough it is to squeeze more money out of a school budget. Still, as a fellow dance teacher, surely SHE understands that my art and knowledge and the sharing of it should be compensated, right?

Wrong.

"Thanks for the reply. Per the boss, you would have to give us a price and then I would be able to say yes to you coming in or no to coming in. We do have many "guest speakers" come in from the community and we basically do like a "you scratch my back, I scratch your back" type of deal. You come in to "advertise" your business and I could also put up posters to advertise your business and we get a great experience. Let me know what you were thinking."

So, I get to work for a week for free while you sit at your desk or hang out in the teacher's lounge and still collect YOUR paycheck?

I feel like researching substitute teacher pay in the school district and suggesting that since I'd effectively be a substitute teacher for these dance classes, that I should be paid accordingly, while pointing out that my normal hourly workshop price is likely more than a day of sub pay at the district anyway.

Or maybe I'm mistaken and SHE's teaching dance for free.

Or maybe there's a misunderstanding? I'm not entirely convinced she's asking you to come in for free. She did say that she needed to know a price and then launched into what (sounded like) might be additional stuff.

Her meaning may have been that they couldn't give you loads of money, but that you would be allowed to post advertisements and whatnot * as well *. Sometimes people aren't so great on e-mail all the time... I think it's worth quoting her a price, then if she comes back with "um, nope, free!", then you're free to complain.

I can accept that it might be a communication issue. It really sounded to me like "well, you can ASK for money, but I don't know if you're going to GET any... we were really counting on you to do it for free like all of the other professional guest speakers and instructors we get in here."

I'll be quoting her a price. I've asked her for more information like how many classes I'd be teaching per day. It did sound to me that she was suggesting the ideal situation for them would be to come in for free. Depending on the circumstances, I'd be willing to do so for a single class as a donation, but to suggest that teaching for a week may be compensated with advertising? I simply can't be down with that.

I guess it strikes me as odd that the district would bring in ANY professional guest instructor/speaker without offering compensation. I've worked high school programs before and they always offer a set amount when they contact me. The amount is usually low, and they know and admit it, but at least I've been budgeted for. What gets my hackles up in this case is that compensation does not seem to have been part of their planning. I've worked in public schools and hired guest instructors. They have budgets for things like this.

Originally Posted by Christina K

I'd be willing to do so for a single class as a donation, but to suggest that teaching for a week may be compensated with advertising? I simply can't be down with that.

Exactly.

Is it one hour each day for a week? Or a full day of classes each day for a week? Maybe if she's not able to offer reasonable compensation, you could offer to give a brief presentation/performance with Qs and As in exchange for advertising -- most likely that's what other guest speakers are exchanging, not a full week of managing lesson plans and teaching classes!

Hopefully she's just trying to set you up for the fact that advertising is considered PART of the pay structure. *crosses fingers*

As a teacher myself (on stress-leave, I might add), don't blame the teacher. Blame the administrators who usually have no teaching experience themselves and are basically business men and woman on power hunts with little or no vision, only concerned with looking good. They'll toot the phrase "It's about what's best for the kids" but really they mean "It's about what balances my budget and makes me look good."
The teacher you are communicating with has very little to absolutely no control over budget and payment. She is dependent on her principal.
I should add that there are always exceptions to the rule, but these are my observations and I have yet to meet any exceptions.

Yep. I taught music in public schools for 12 years, so I know exactly how budgets there work. The problem is, I can't personally appeal to the principal myself... the teacher has to do it. Still, it's the first time I've been contacted by a teacher with no apparent plan in mind, so it makes me wonder if the administration even knows she wants to bring me in.

As for the advertising being a part of my compensation, Lauren, I alluded to that in my reply email to her, asking how many classes per day and what the hours were, etc. The odd thing is, the email bounced... the same email I was able to send to on Friday and that she sent from this morning. Maybe the district servers were too busy, but the bounce reason was "no such address."

Odd.

The teacher might have been assigned the task of contacting you, it could be new territory for her. She might not be familiar with the normal policy so she could be at a disadvantage. The fact that her email address bounced - that does cause me a bit of hesitation.

Maybe you could visit the school and ask for a meeting with the teacher's boss. At least you would have a final answer. I would take copies of all correspondence and possibly a DVD/player with clips of your teaching and a few performance clips along with your normal contract for teaching and performing.

You might see about the pricing of it as an extra-curricular type program. My daughter's school has after school classes and the teachers get paid directly by the parents (unless the kid got a scholarship). Budgets might be tight but you should be compensated for what you are teaching and "advertising" is not compensation.

Originally Posted by Hala Jamal

As a teacher myself (on stress-leave, I might add), don't blame the teacher. Blame the administrators who usually have no teaching experience themselves and are basically business men and woman on power hunts with little or no vision, only concerned with looking good. They'll toot the phrase "It's about what's best for the kids" but really they mean "It's about what balances my budget and makes me look good."
The teacher you are communicating with has very little to absolutely no control over budget and payment. She is dependent on her principal.
I should add that there are always exceptions to the rule, but these are my observations and I have yet to meet any exceptions.

Back up the truck a bit there. I'm a teacher, and my husband is a principal. We also have a number of close friends who are principals or assistant principals. I assure you that in our school district, principals ARE former teachers, many of them master teachers who taught for years. I don't know of a single principal or even a director who was not a teacher at one time, and that's in the largest school district in our province.

I've taught with two other (rural) school boards, a college, and now a university, all in Alberta, and I've never had a principal, director, or dean who was not a former teacher.

I can't speak for all these people, but I know for a fact that for my husband and our close friends, learners' needs are always their primary concern. Of course, they have constraints in which they must work, but that does not mean they are "on power hunts" and are "only concerned with looking good."

Now, it's true that trustees are frequently people with no teaching experience, but that's not what you said.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I'm not going to ignore insults like that about people who matter to me.

Originally Posted by Christina K

I guess it strikes me as odd that the district would bring in ANY professional guest instructor/speaker without offering compensation. I've worked high school programs before and they always offer a set amount when they contact me. The amount is usually low, and they know and admit it, but at least I've been budgeted for. What gets my hackles up in this case is that compensation does not seem to have been part of their planning. I've worked in public schools and hired guest instructors. They have budgets for things like this.

I've been part of free demonstrations at schools many times- only to find out years later that there are structures for paying guest artists. The problem? The teachers looking for supplemental material *didn't know* about those resources! Sometimes it is worth calling the district office and asking about an artist in residence program to see what district policy is. I am also surprised at the advertising bit. There is a VERY strict "no advertising on campus" policy in our district, and even recommendations had to be hedged in another district we were in.

Originally Posted by Christina K

"Thanks for the reply. Per the boss, you would have to give us a price and then I would be able to say yes to you coming in or no to coming in. We do have many "guest speakers" come in from the community and we basically do like a "you scratch my back, I scratch your back" type of deal. You come in to "advertise" your business and I could also put up posters to advertise your business and we get a great experience. Let me know what you were thinking."

The lack of professionalism in her reply sets my teeth on edge. Still, it's very common for businesses and institutions to ask for your rate before revealing their own budget. It (technically) gives them the advantage. If your rate is under what they're willing to pay, they save money. If it's well above what they're willing to pay, they won't waste their time negotiating. I'm not at all surprised they want you to provide your 'salary requirements' upfront.

Originally Posted by CalgaryBibi

Back up the truck a bit there. I'm a teacher, and my husband is a principal. We also have a number of close friends who are principals or assistant principals. I assure you that in our school district, principals ARE former teachers, many of them master teachers who taught for years. I don't know of a single principal or even a director who was not a teacher at one time, and that's in the largest school district in our province.

You're Canadian I'm guessing? Principals with little to no education background are not entirely uncommon in many of the larger urban school districts in the US.

First off - BREAHTE!!!! then go get more information. It sounds as though she really doesn't know what she is talking about. And who knows, she may be so completely overwhelmed, she doesn't even know the questions to ask, let alone the answers to give.

If, after you have asked the questions, you still haven't gotten clear answers, maybe a conference call with the teacher and the principal is in order. But as the teacher is the person who you will be working with, going around her is probably not in your best interest if you would like a pleasant working relationship with her.

Just my two pence worth.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by Sirène

The lack of professionalism in her reply sets my teeth on edge. Still, it's very common for businesses and institutions to ask for your rate before revealing their own budget. It (technically) gives them the advantage. If your rate is under what they're willing to pay, they save money. If it's well above what they're willing to pay, they won't waste their time negotiating. I'm not at all surprised they want you to provide your 'salary requirements' upfront.



You're Canadian I'm guessing? Principals with little to no education background are not entirely uncommon in many of the larger urban school districts in the US.

Yes, I am a Canadian, but so is the poster to whom I was responding. I'm aware the system is different in the US, but I was discussing not just the same country, but the same province as the other poster (and education is a provincial jurisdiction in Canada).

From the Alberta Education website:

How do I become a principal, superintendent or administrator in Alberta?

I’m glad to hear that you are interested in more information on how to become a principal, superintendent or administrator in Alberta. The first step to pursuing this path is to be a certificated teacher currently teaching in Alberta.

Alberta Education - Questions about... Administrators

Again, sorry to hijack.

Just reading the response they gave you, it doesn't sound like there is going to be any remuneration. If there was, they would've flatly stated that. It looks to me like they are giving you an opportunity to advertise for free your own classes while not paying rent to teach on their premises.

I don't mean to be a smart aleck but Big Freaking Deal.

Originally Posted by EternalStudent

not paying rent to teach on their premises.

Not paying rent to teach on their premises? Really? Does that work?


I need someone to come do some bookkeeping, answer phones, and clean my studios for about 6 hours a week. If I let them put up some posters advertising those services to others, and not charge them rent, do you think I'll get a bunch of takers?

It would be a much better deal than Christina is being offered. A clerical/cleaning person doesn't need the same insurance, business license, ongoing education, music collection, CPR/First Aid certification, collection of props, etc. as a bellydance teacher so the expenses would be minimal to come work for me!

Last week two authors visited where I work (public school) and did two 1-hour presentations free of charge . . . but I'm guessing their publisher is funding this book tour. They offered books for pre-sale and, of course, the presentation was completely geared towards their series that they want the students, their target audience, to buy.

I mention the above because in your situation, are these students really going to sign up for your classes? Are you going to reach a target audience with this? If you think the "advertising" really could benefit you, maybe there's a way that you can make it work - perhaps agree to visiting only one day, require that your info be included on their website, in their school newsletter, etc.

I have taught dance to this age group as part of a special once-a-year Saturday activity day for foreign language students (as a favor to some former co-workers). They didn't outright pay any of the instructors, but they did have a "supplies budget" which allowed me to order (and keep) CDs, DVDs, or similar items that I could say contributed to the class. If she really wants you there, she can find a way (PTO, boosters club, etc.) to come up with some sort of compensation.

I did a free presentation once to a school assembly with a 'world's fair' theme and considered it sort of a PSA -- these were kids who will have an early intro to bellydance in a positive way (not to mention the teachers & parents present).

I also volunteered to teach all morning at a Girl Scout event once.

For a high school, I might be willing to come in and do a presentation for the class as a PSA (I don't teach under age 16 at all and have rarely had high-school aged students, so I wouldn't consider the advertising to be worth much)

But I wouldn't teach for a whole week for free.

I work as a substitute teacher at a small rural school. Typical pay out here is around $50 to $60 for a whole day (degree dependent). Just trying to give you an idea of what you might expect if they go the sub pay route... it's not much.

Thank you CalgaryBibi for giving me hope that not all school boards are the same in our province. Any vacancies in yours? ;-) I love where I live too much, though . . .

Originally Posted by Hala Jamal

Thank you CalgaryBibi for giving me hope that not all school boards are the same in our province. Any vacancies in yours? ;-) I love where I live too much, though . . .

Calgary's not too far from you, but where you are is definitely more scenic. It's no wonder you love it.

That's OK - I'm sure there are several do-nothing administrators pulling down 6 figure salaries, leaving no money for anything else.

That's funny, I only know do-everything administrators pulling down salaries in the low-to-mid five figures. All of them are trained and experienced teachers, and many of them still juggle both teaching and administrative work. Clearly I hang out with the wrong crowd.

This should be really straight forward. You work (as a teacher), you get paid. Full stop. This is not an advertising opportunity, it's a job. Why do we agonise over these things? Is any teacher at that school working for free? I doubt it.

How much you're prepared to work for (keeping in mind they may have limited budget) is a fair enough question. But should you question whether you're actually entitled to any pay at all? No.

Originally Posted by Lara L

I am also surprised at the advertising bit. There is a VERY strict "no advertising on campus" policy in our district, and even recommendations had to be hedged in another district we were in.

That had always been my experience too. Unless there was some kind of community outreach where the students got special deals to further their education or as a school fund raising opportunity, advertising was not done at all in the buildings.

Originally Posted by kiyaana

I mention the above because in your situation, are these students really going to sign up for your classes? Are you going to reach a target audience with this? If you think the "advertising" really could benefit you, maybe there's a way that you can make it work - perhaps agree to visiting only one day, require that your info be included on their website, in their school newsletter, etc.

Yeah, that's the thing. Teens who are already in a high school dance program are mostly likely also taking after school and/or weekend classes in their strongest dance form. Theoretically, they may *want* to take bellydance after the program is over, but is it feasible with tight budgets and schedules?

I'd do one day as a donation to the school district, but not a full week.

And still, her email is bouncing, so I really have no idea what's going on there. She never gave me a phone number and frankly, I'm not inclined to hunt her down at this point.

Originally Posted by Lesedi

I work as a substitute teacher at a small rural school. Typical pay out here is around $50 to $60 for a whole day (degree dependent). Just trying to give you an idea of what you might expect if they go the sub pay route... it's not much.

When I left Chicago Public Schools in 2005, sub pay was around $100/day, so yeah, I know not to expect much if I try to build my quote around what they get, but I'd expect to be paid less in an instance like this (verses a series of semi-private lessons or several one-off hour long workshop presentations).

Originally Posted by Christina K

And still, her email is bouncing, so I really have no idea what's going on there. She never gave me a phone number and frankly, I'm not inclined to hunt her down at this point.

Very insightful. If you do not hear from her the situation is handled.

I admire your willingness to teach one day. Unless the situation was addressed I would not work with anyone with such an unprofessional approach. Shutting down an email during a negotiation is totally inappropriate.

Originally Posted by Suzana

That's funny, I only know do-everything administrators pulling down salaries in the low-to-mid five figures. All of them are trained and experienced teachers, and many of them still juggle both teaching and administrative work. Clearly I hang out with the wrong crowd.

That is as it should be. Unfortunately, in my neck of the woods, there are plenty of highly paid "administrators" - and then people wonder why the teachers (who actually DO the work and accomplish something) are underpaid, the music program is cut, blah, blah, blah...

Yes, I'm sure it's precisely that simple.