Thread: helping undercutting dancers understand the expenses related to dancing

There are a lot of threads on bhuz about undercutting amongst dancers, I thought maybe it would be helpful for pro dancers to create a quick expense guide to share with new and up and coming dancers to make them aware of the real costs involved in professional dancing.

It would be great if some of our professional dancers could jot down a few price estimates here on costuming, music, class and rehearsal costs, etc so that new dancers or those tempted to undercut the pro's can see what it REALLy costs to be a pro.

I think this would be helpful for both the new (undercutting) dancers as well as the GP. The problem (well one problem, anyway) would be to A) get the message to them, and B) deliver that message in a non-confrontational way that doesn't seem angry or confrontational, which would certainly be helpful.

Another issue that is pertinent to this issue is that a lot of the expense that one incurs happens over a long period of time, and is really difficult to quantify. It's one thing to be heavily involved in dance for a period of time and experience all the wonder and excitement of learning a new skill to the extent that you can perform it, the sparkly costumes, exploring a new culture, the alter-ego "self" that finally gets airtime, etc. etc. It is a whole different thing to do this for years on end. It's only over time that the real expenses manifest themselves: the long-term opportunity costs of foregoing other things in your life in favor of being a professional-level ANYTHING. Someone new might not "get" that. In my observation, once a certain level of competency and skill has been reached, it takes a big jump in time, money, and focus to continue improving .... and that's when it stops being a hobby and starts being "something else." And this is the point at which most of us have to take a more business-like approach to what we're spending and what we're making for that 20-minute show. This doesn't mean we don't love performing MED as much; on the contrary, we love and respect it so much we continue to pursue it and think it's worthy of adequate compensation.

I hope I'm making sense! I hope someone else can do a better job of articulating this ....

I'll throw my hat in the ring and start with something easy.

For example I make the vast majority of my costumes and materials, whether I barter for or buy them cost a minimum of $150 and that doesn't include the many hours required to make one. When you consider 'paying' yourself a paltry $10 per hour for this, a costume you make for yourself could be worth well over $500. It takes expertise, may have taken sewing classes and an untold amount of time comisserating with other seamstresses and bellydancers over the 'how to's' of costume making.

That alone says something about how seriously a lot of us take our craft and that we deserve to be paid accordingly.

Those of us that are lucky to be able to afford ready-made cossies deserve no less consideration. It takes a lot of love for the dance to plunk down what amounts to a month's rent on a costume.

To complete this thought, by the time we get to this point we've put in an immense amount of time into classes, workshops and practice. Our costume seems to reflect our ability much of the time, though there of course cases of very talented dancers who don't own bedlahs or not so great dancers that own Bellas.

I now leave the floor open to those who have much more to add to this great thread!

Honestly, I don't think it will help. Undercutters usually are of the opinion that they don't need any more (or any) lessons, coaching, rehearsals, workshops, classes, etc. Or expensive costumes. Or a professional looking website. Not needing these also justifies their pricing structure (they are passing the savings along to the customer!).

We've started a document on the Biz of Belly Dance group on Facebook Log In | Facebook
Any member can add to the document and we'd love more input.

If someone wants to call themselves a professional they have to also realize that it then is a business (and not a money pit hobby).

[QUOTE=SamiraShuruk;925447... If someone wants to call themselves a professional they have to also realize that it then is a business (and not a money pit hobby).[/QUOTE]

Well said, Samira! I've been waiting for someone to come up with that phrase for a long time.

Sadly I do not think anyone that would undercut would (1) read the info and (2) think it applicable to them. Undercutters have their mind-set and see no reason to change. I do not necessarily think all undercutters set-out to undermine the local dancers' income but once they get into that situation they see no reason to change. Plus they probably feel if they change anything they might lose their gigs. The dancers that do not undercut could find the resource useful to share with their students that could be future professional dancers, the info could be a source to assist future performers.

I think it is very useful for working dancers to get a handle on their actual budgets. There's an awful lot of flying by the seats of the pants going on, and that's not a professional way to run a commercial enterprise on multiple levels. On the other hand, we don't have good quality control, and I'm not seeing how collecting numbers takes that into account.

It is possible to spend thousands of dollars on classes and learn very little. It's pretty unlikely that five years of weekly, mixed-level, constantly-restarting-as-new-beginners-are-added rec lessons where the teacher does very little correction are equivalent to five years of lessons with a teacher who does correct and who monitors students' progress so the curriculum evolves at different levels to reflect individuals' growing abilities.

What about students who spend big bucks going to workshops but don't show much noticeable improvement from the experience? Not to agree with Miles, but just because you were there, it doesn't prove you learned anything. Can you equate a dancer who travels around to work with a specific instructor (like Jasmin Jahal did with Bobby) to a dancer who builds a long list of one class each from many different teachers with no coherent focus?

What are you buying with your music dollars? "10 Songs Every Bellydancer Should Know" isn't equal to a CD that is one 48-minute song by Umm Kalthoum. Have you amassed some depth of knowledge about specific musicians or genres, or is your record collection a lot of stuff you only understand superficially? If you own a hundred records, what does it mean if you only actually listen to three of them? Who cares how much you spend on continuing-education DVDs, if you don't watch them?

What does it say if your bottom line is inflated with a huge costume budget? A dancer who amasses a wardrobe of well chosen costumes for different types of performances isn't the same as someone who just buys any pretty sparkle that shows up on the Swap Meet. Without any context, how much you spend on clothes may not mean anything about what kind of quality dancer you are. Maybe you own a lot of costumes because your weight fluctuates. Maybe you'd rather buy secondhand than new.

It's possible to invest huge sums of money and look great on paper, but still be far from deserving the title "professional." The expenses aren't the whole story. The quality of the investment matters, and in the absence of any sort of enforced standards of "pro" quality, the diligence of application matters, too.

I'm afraid that undercutting will always be the case with jobs in the arts.

I used to work as a writer. I've been on a looooong hiatus due to the frustration of trying to work in a field where thousands of people are happy to do my job for free, or for $20. (almost none of the bellydance industry publications pay their writers, for instance. Which FLOORS me in a creative industry. I guess we're supposed to write for them for exposure? I guess they realize they get what they pay for? We don't know better than this? They are for-profit ventures, making money off our work!! How is that different from being asked to dance in a restaurant for free? )

I know photographers deal with this as well, they talk about 'guy with a camera' like we talk about 'suzy nippletassels' Guy with a Camera is happy to photograph your wedding for $50, his expenses are low and hey, he just likes doing it!

I agree with Sedonia and Showtime. Undercutters don't recognize themselves, or have a hundred justifications when confronted. They don't care what your professional expenses are, or how much time is involved in things done the professional way, because that's not how they do things.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Undercutters don't recognize themselves, or have a hundred justifications when confronted. They don't care what your professional expenses are, or how much time is involved in things done the professional way, because that's not how they do things.

This. I have talked with dancers who perform or teach for free or donations/tips only and it has never worked thus far. They always have a rationalization to make it somehow ok for them even though they often decry the practice in others.

I truly wish there was some sort of explanation that would get through, but I haven't found one yet.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I used to work as a writer. I've been on a looooong hiatus due to the frustration of trying to work in a field where thousands of people are happy to do my job for free, or for $20. (almost none of the bellydance industry publications pay their writers, for instance. Which FLOORS me in a creative industry. I guess we're supposed to write for them for exposure?

Not to get too OT, but I assumed the main reason dance magazines don't pay writers is the same reason dancers don't usually get paid for performing at dance events. If you're already operating at a loss or on such a narrow margin that you're only in the black because you're not billing for your own time, you don't have the money to pay contributors. Don't get me wrong--I think it would be wonderful if these magazines could pay their writers and be more selective about their content, but I'm not surprised they take what they can get.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Not to get too OT, but I assumed the main reason dance magazines don't pay writers is the same reason dancers don't usually get paid for performing at dance events. If you're already operating at a loss or on such a narrow margin that you're only in the black because you're not billing for your own time, you don't have the money to pay contributors. Don't get me wrong--I think it would be wonderful if these magazines could pay their writers and be more selective about their content, but I'm not surprised they take what they can get.

I can see that as a possibility... but most dance events are gatherings of amateurs and hobbyists who are paying for the service of being provided a place to perform. (except for workshop shows, in which the headliner IS paid). Most dance publications do have profit as a goal.

I so totally understand what you are all saying about the difficulties of getting the information to those who need it the most, not to mention the fact that some people will just never change.
It's true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. BUT, here in the DC area we succeeded in raising the rates to a respectable level through this very kind of education. Sure, there are those who still undercut. There always will be, BUT there are some who actually start to see the light and make a change.

I agree with Tourbeau. The "business cost" argument doesn't take into consideration 1. semi-pro "weekend warriors" who perform 3-4 paid gigs a year but spend all their disposable income on costumes, 2. the working pro who bargain hunts, makes DIY costumes, or hoards costumes while saving her money for trips abroad, and 3. everything in between. There are too many variables, and no such thing as a One Size Fits All business plan.

Usually, if I'm reasoning with somebody who's underpricing her services, I shy away from the business expense argument and talk about self-respect. For some people, this really IS an expensive hobby, and we can't change that. But some dancers might be willing to listen if you say something along the lines of, "You're good enough to be making a LOT more money," and/or "You're talented enough to dance for people who respect and are grateful for what you do." Some dancers might not put two and two together that you will FEEL better about your dancing when you get compensated and treated nicely for a job well done. Getting the world to see how much we spend on our dance isn't the heart of the matter in all our conversations on undercutting. But getting our dance in front of appreciative audiences, is!

Of course, I don't usually engage people in this conversation unless they solicit my input first, and unless I know them well enough to gauge their potential reaction. And I also believe that in an ideal world, more teachers would have workshops on this topic, and more communities would formally come together to discuss these issues. I guess a girl can dream, right?

Putting on my MBA hat here....

Every time pricing discussions come up, belly dancers all start justifying our price structures based on "business expenses".

That's the wrong argument.

Just because something takes considerable expense/effort to produce doesn't make it valuable. I could make a great big ball of lint by picking lint off of flannel sheets. It would take a lot of time and effort to produce it, and all those flannel sheets would be expensive to buy and launder (thereby raising the pills of lint to pick off). But that doesn't mean that I can expect someone else to pay me a lot of money for the ball of lint.

Think instead in terms of VALUE. Value often has nothing to do with "cost".

For example, ask those who dance for free at should-be-professional gigs such as restaurants why they think their dance is worthless. Why do they think it's okay for a restaurant owner to make money off them while paying them nothing? How would they feel if a customer walked up to them after a show and said, "Your performance was worthless?" But isn't it the same thing to dance at a restaurant for free? They're letting the restaurant owner treat them as worthless.

And then craft similar arguments asking people why they think of themselves as CHEAP.

ITA with Shira.

I tell people "you're worth as much as a clown." Find out how much people are paying in your area to have a clown come to their birthday party, or a singing telegram. Share THAT information with the undercutters.

Although I had this conversation with another local dancer, who called me days later and said "But the clown probably stays for the whole party, I'm just there for 15 or 20 minutes."

First of all -- no they don't. Secondly... you're sparklier. But most importantly, it's the same 'party entertainment budget' regardless of how long the entertainment stays.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Just because something takes considerable expense/effort to produce doesn't make it valuable. I could make a great big ball of lint by picking lint off of flannel sheets. It would take a lot of time and effort to produce it, and all those flannel sheets would be expensive to buy and launder (thereby raising the pills of lint to pick off). But that doesn't mean that I can expect someone else to pay me a lot of money for the ball of lint.

{Evil person in the back of my head says: go browse Etsy...}

I think the ways to address undercutters are as varied as their reasons for undercutting.
If they love the title "professional" then they can have help in learning about the business end of being a professional. It's not just about "free market" it's about making at least a small profit.
If they do it for ego boost- then you have to find out how it effects them- and find the angle that helps them see it BENEFITS THEM to charge more. Some simply don't care that it negatively effects the art or other dancers.
Help dancers see that THEY are more valuable. Their TIME is more valuable. The DANCE is more valuable. If they charge more they usually get treated better. If they charge more they are able to do it longer. If they charge more they can buy more/better costumes, attend more workshops, take more classes, buy more music (which ever appeals to them most is the one you emphasize).
There are many diffrerent angles.

I agree that *worth* is not directly linked to *cost* to produce

However, I do think that a list of potential expenses, and what it does cost to go into business can help ground folks who have not done this before, or who have not yet considered some of these costs.

Telling someone "look, right here in your budget- you are spending more in gas to get to this gig than you are making at the gig" really has helped people change prices, in my admittedly limited experience. I, as a business owner without that lauded MBA, appreciated folks who did take the time to say "have you considered this expense & that liability." I do the same, and yes, it can be frustrating sometimes thinking "okay, I am essentially training my competition for free" but I am training my competition to be *good* competition I can stand to work with/around!

I think the issue of *worth* should be brought up in the conversation too, but it is not a stand alone item, it is part of the whole, which all needs to be considered.

Jes, I swear we operate on the same brain waves... I just did this very thing out of curiosity. Basically I estimated the minimum costs to go pro in 5 years (yes this will vary, but I had to pick something). I kept it on the very low end, everything was super cheap and the very minimum. I took things like 40 classes a year for 5 years, 2 workshops a year for 5 years, 4 DVDs a year for 5 years and added them with two very inexpensive bra/belt sets, 3 skirts, 1 pair of harem pants, a few basic props, one pair of dance shoes, 50 .99 cent songs, etc. plus basic business expenses such as website, flyers, business cards, etc.

Total was about $5,000 and I was very, very cheap and minimal on everything. No $600 costumes, weekend retreats, competition expenses, private lessons, studio rental, music licensing, insurance or anything like that.

Now you figure if someone is doing gigs for $50 it's going to take them 100 gigs just to earn that money back before they start to make a profit, and by that time they will have more expenses to pay. Costumes will need to be repaired and replaced, business cards will run out, the website will need to be renewed, etc. and this is also assuming they are no longer spending any money on classes, workshops, videos, music, etc.

There is just no possible way to make any money doing this unless you take no classes/workshops and never buy any more music, costumes, props, etc. and you would have to do so many $50 gigs a week just to make anything worth the effort I doubt many areas can support a single dancer's need for that many gigs. So if undercutters think they are going to make money they are going to be pretty disappointed.

Now as for the ones who do it for the "love of dance" or their 5 minutes of stardom... well this argument is moot to them and there probably isn't anything that can be done to convince them what they are doing is wrong.

Originally Posted by dima

Total was about $5,000 and I was very, very cheap and minimal on everything. No $600 costumes, weekend retreats, competition expenses, private lessons, studio rental, music licensing, insurance or anything like that.

Now you figure if someone is doing gigs for $50 it's going to take them 100 gigs just to earn that money back before they start to make a profit, and by that time they will have more expenses to pay.

Even with this strategy, it may not be an accurate representation. Thanks to YouTube, people who have the idea in their heads that they can make money belly dancing don't even have to take classes anymore. They can Internet themselves to a fabulous career without the dance community ever having a point where they could intervene. Maybe Suzy YouTube only needs one six-week run of classes (if that) on top of her vast training from watching Shakira and ExpertVillage videos before hanging out her shingle.

OTOH, many people who sign up for our classes (even some of the ones who turn into undercutters) are not doing so with the intention of vocational training. If you register to take a class on plumbing at a community college, you're presumably not doing so because you thought it might be fun to try learning about U-bends. You're treated as if you're on a career path from Day 1. What does this model mean for the undercutter who is saying, "I'm just a student, so I shouldn't charge full price, but I love to dance, I need performing experience, and I'm going to start gigging"? Does their meter start running from the first class, or do we discount those early rec classes because the end justified the means?

There is just no possible way to make any money doing this unless you take no classes/workshops and never buy any more music, costumes, props, etc.

Lots of dancers are stuck in time warps of old/tacky costumes and stagnant music libraries. I can get a butterfly costume for $50, and anyway, isn't all music free on the Internet? I agree that a dancer can't make good, respectable money this way, but you can fool a lot of uninformed consumers once.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Thanks to YouTube, people who have the idea in their heads that they can make money belly dancing don't even have to take classes anymore. They can Internet themselves to a fabulous career without the dance community ever having a point where they could intervene.

People who think they can learn a skill from watching 2 minute youtube classes then go out and perform are a lost cause. If they had any semblance of common sense they would know how silly the idea is. It's like people who watch Karate Kid and think they can wax a car and BAM they are a black belt.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

OTOH, many people who sign up for our classes (even some of the ones who turn into undercutters) are not doing so with the intention of vocational training. If you register to take a class on plumbing at a community college, you're presumably not doing so because you thought it might be fun to try learning about U-bends. You're treated as if you're on a career path from Day 1. What does this model mean for the undercutter who is saying, "I'm just a student, so I shouldn't charge full price, but I love to dance, I need performing experience, and I'm going to start gigging"? Does their meter start running from the first class, or do we discount those early rec classes because the end justified the means?

I'm sure lots of people consider the money spent on classes a "loss" and don't factor it into their flimsy business model. But it can't hurt to point it out to them that they are losing the money they spent to learn the craft that they are now attempting to profit from. If making money is their goal, but they want to charge $50 or less per gig, they should have never signed up for classes because in the end they are LOSING money by being cheap.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Lots of dancers are stuck in time warps of old/tacky costumes and stagnant music libraries. I can get a butterfly costume for $50, and anyway, isn't all music free on the Internet? I agree that a dancer can't make good, respectable money this way, but you can fool a lot of uninformed consumers once.

Again, that's true but for dancers who choose to be cheap, tacky, and blind to professionalism there isn't much we can do to educate them if they won't educate themselves. At the very least we can point out "there is no way you're going to make any money charging that little. At least charge a respectable income" and then when the dancer in the cheap costume with only youtube for training is compared to a real pro who charges just a little bit more... maybe people will pick the pro instead. If the price difference is less, maybe the quality will get more consideration. Is another $20 too much to pay when choosing between a dancer in a grungy, ill fitting airport special with no stage presence vs. the pro in the gorgeous costume and makeup who dances with grace and makes the party fun?

Originally Posted by dima

I'm sure lots of people consider the money spent on classes a "loss" and don't factor it into their flimsy business model. But it can't hurt to point it out to them that they are losing the money they spent to learn the craft that they are now attempting to profit from. If making money is their goal, but they want to charge $50 or less per gig, they should have never signed up for classes because in the end they are LOSING money by being cheap.

When I accepted my first job (in the technology field) out of college, I never thought in terms of earning back what I spent on college. Instead, I thought in terms of what the job market was paying for people of similar qualifications seeking similar job positions.

A finance professional would tell you that whatever was "invested" in the past (which could apply to education, supplies, etc.) is a "sunk cost", and "sunk costs" are typically treated as being of little to no importance when making decisions about future investments. The key decision-making for future investments lies in whether you should throw good money after (potentially) bad. Applying this to dance, should you invest your future time, effort, transportation expense, costuming/makeup expense, etc into a business whose return on investment is poor due to small revenue opportunity?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

When I accepted my first job (in the technology field) out of college, I never thought in terms of earning back what I spent on college. Instead, I thought in terms of what the job market was paying for people of similar qualifications seeking similar job positions.

Thank you. I've noticed some dancers talk about things like needing to teach so that they can afford to learn more.

Now, I really agree that teaching dancers still need to go to workshops, have high-level classes, etc., and that is definitely a justifiable business expense. But that's a whole different ballgame than "oh, I need to teach just a really basic class at the community college so I can afford another weekly class and a new costume; I'm actually trying to keep belly dance alive!".

But as has been said, this is all great for us to discuss and not necessarily reached by those who need it.
I'm amazed at the dancers who don't realize the resources that are available to them! Maybe they google "bellydance costume" and never "bellydance history" or "bellydance professional"? [Never mind "bellydance Fifi" or.... Teachers, please provide keywords to your students!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

When I accepted my first job (in the technology field) out of college, I never thought in terms of earning back what I spent on college. Instead, I thought in terms of what the job market was paying for people of similar qualifications seeking similar job positions.

A finance professional would tell you that whatever was "invested" in the past (which could apply to education, supplies, etc.) is a "sunk cost", and "sunk costs" are typically treated as being of little to no importance when making decisions about future investments. The key decision-making for future investments lies in whether you should throw good money after (potentially) bad. Applying this to dance, should you invest your future time, effort, transportation expense, costuming/makeup expense, etc into a business whose return on investment is poor due to small revenue opportunity?

But you are also expecting to make a fair wage. Even if you start at the minimal pay for someone of your level of education and experience, you will make at least the minimum and earn more from there as your experience increases. My point is that it doesn't make sense to pay so much for all the expenses in order to go pro if they charge so little once they get there. It's like paying for culinary school, walking into a restaurant and telling them you will work for minimum wage. Either charge what you're worth, or don't bother to get in the business at all because you won't make money charging less.

Of course if someone doesn't CARE about losing money in the long term, that's another matter. I just think some people don't consider their expenses through when they say "Sure I'll dance two 30 minute sets for $50. That's $50 an hour!"

Yes, our expenses for learning up until the point of going pro and afterwards are an investment. But we also charge a fair price for our experience and we do that investment justice.

Originally Posted by dima

People who think they can learn a skill from watching 2 minute youtube classes then go out and perform are a lost cause. If they had any semblance of common sense they would know how silly the idea is.

For the purpose of this conversation, we're been treating the YouTubers as if they are one kind of student, when actually, they are two different kinds. True, the ones who think it's okay to watch a couple of videos and hit the road are beyond our grasp. They're deluded, and as far as the reputation of the dance community is concerned, they're not just dingbats, they're destructive.

However, there is another group out there, the ones who mean well and think they're doing the best they can. They're the wannabe students who live in areas where there aren't teachers, or maybe they really want to take in-person classes, but can't because of family or financial reasons. These folks are very sincere. They're not just watching a few ExpertVillage clips. They're watching lots and lots of them, and buying Dolphina's videos at Best Buy, and working really hard...in a vacuum. They're mostly just guilty of ignorance. Not that they're not still a serious problem, especially when they start teaching or trying to get gigs, but I don't know that I want to put a student who hopes she's dancing properly in the same category with the dancer who thinks she doesn't need to know better because she looks so hot in the costume. After all, there are a few students out there taking classes from incompetent teachers, and to a point, we're willing to cut them a little slack. You can only blame naive consumers so much for not being more discriminating.

Although at some point, the tolerance runs out. It's not the free-range student's fault when she doesn't know there's a off-the-radar local teacher who isn't listed in any online directories, and I applaud any student who tries to teach herself 3/4 shimmies from reading an argument on Bhuz. On the other hand, in this day and age, how much ignorance do we have to put up with? There are more quality, free resources available now than there have ever been at any point in history.

Originally Posted by showtime

Sadly I do not think anyone that would undercut would (1) read the info and (2) think it applicable to them. Undercutters have their mind-set and see no reason to change. I do not necessarily think all undercutters set-out to undermine the local dancers' income but once they get into that situation they see no reason to change. Plus they probably feel if they change anything they might lose their gigs. The dancers that do not undercut could find the resource useful to share with their students that could be future professional dancers, the info could be a source to assist future performers.

The only recourse is to bound and gag them in the dungeon! <just kidding, I think>

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

However, there is another group out there, the ones who mean well and think they're doing the best they can. They're the wannabe students who live in areas where there aren't teachers, or maybe they really want to take in-person classes, but can't because of family or financial reasons. These folks are very sincere. They're not just watching a few ExpertVillage clips. They're watching lots and lots of them, and buying Dolphina's videos at Best Buy, and working really hard...in a vacuum. They're mostly just guilty of ignorance.

I don't buy this because I was one of these students lost in a teacherless area and gobbling up anything I could find online for guidance. Because I had to scour the internet for all my information I also came across a sea of articles about professionalism. Despite being teacherless and very enthusiastic I knew better than to start taking gigs just because I had a few Veena and Neena tapes. Anyone who is serious about being a belly dancer and has access to youtube clips also has access to Google. You can hardly browse a bellydance information site without tripping over long winded articles about ethics and professionalism. If they don't bother to look up information other than those youtube "classes" then they probably aren't serious about it.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

When I accepted my first job (in the technology field) out of college, I never thought in terms of earning back what I spent on college. Instead, I thought in terms of what the job market was paying for people of similar qualifications seeking similar job positions.

You may not have been thinking in those terms, but you certainly expected to make more than minimum wage. People go to college because they assume it will increase their earning power MORE than the cost of the tuition over the course of time.

A finance professional would tell you that whatever was "invested" in the past (which could apply to education, supplies, etc.) is a "sunk cost", and "sunk costs" are typically treated as being of little to no importance when making decisions about future investments. The key decision-making for future investments lies in whether you should throw good money after (potentially) bad. Applying this to dance, should you invest your future time, effort, transportation expense, costuming/makeup expense, etc into a business whose return on investment is poor due to small revenue opportunity?

Yes, but this isn't finance. It's business. The initial costs are not a 'sunk investment' they are your startup costs, and businesspeople most certainly DO expect to recoup their startup costs at some point.

However, most people don't start a bellydance class in order to build a performing business. They start because it's fun, or good exercise, or whatever, and they've already spent $$ in exchange for fun/exercise for years before they start spending it in order to go pro. So it could be argued that only a portion of the education costs of becoming a bellydancer are part of the startup cost of doing business, it was an expensive hobby before it was a profession.

Originally Posted by dima

I don't buy this because I was one of these students lost in a teacherless area and gobbling up anything I could find online for guidance. Because I had to scour the internet for all my information I also came across a sea of articles about professionalism. Despite being teacherless and very enthusiastic I knew better than to start taking gigs just because I had a few Veena and Neena tapes. Anyone who is serious about being a belly dancer and has access to youtube clips also has access to Google. You can hardly browse a bellydance information site without tripping over long winded articles about ethics and professionalism. If they don't bother to look up information other than those youtube "classes" then they probably aren't serious about it.

I'm not defending people who could and should know, but don't. The reality is there will always be some folks who just aren't very good at putting two and two together. Some of them aren't very savvy. Some are lazy. Some just don't think things through all the way. Some of them are convinced that X doesn't apply to them, no matter how obvious it is that it does. You might say, "Ah, if they were just reading a forum like Bhuz..." and yet, how many questions in our archives could have been answered with "Did you read the article on Shira's yet?", "Did you check the Arabic translation forum at AllTheLyrics?", "Did you ask your teacher if you were doing it the way she wanted?", "Did you read the comments under the video to see of someone identified the song?", "Did you ask the customer what they had in mind?", "Did you look to see if your area was listed on Samira Shuruk's rate page?", and all of those other no-brainers. Guilty by reason of ignorance might be preferable to guilty by reason of narcissistic malice, but they're still guilty.