Thread: Low workshop attendance?

Hello Bhuzzers!

I have been hosting regular workshops in Oxford through our Middle Eastern Dance Society for the last 2 years, which is something I am quite passionate about as I want to create more opportunities for local dancers to study with good teachers without having to travel to London all the time, and to help create a thriving local dance scene.

However, I am currently feeling very discouraged about the whole thing, and wondering whether now is the time to throw in the towel and just take private lessons with the teachers I want to learn from and sod everyone else...

In the last year, we've hosted both little-known local teachers, and a couple of more famous dancers (Outi of Cairo, who we were very fortunate to be able to host whilst she was on holiday in Oxford, and more recently Ozgen). But, we have consistently struggled to get a half-decent turnout, even though there is a fairly large local dance community. Even for Outi, we only managed classes of 12 or so! This reached an extreme this weekend, when we held our annual winter hafla, and invited Ozgen to teach and perform. The hafla was hugely successful with the highest turnout we've ever had (over 100) - but only 5/6 people came to the workshops including myself.

I am truly baffled. I have been advertising these workshops since late Summer, and have handed out around 200 flyers at local dance events in the preceding months. And Ozgen is a popular dancer round here - many people told me they were excited about seeing him perform at the hafla - but seemingly not excited enough to want to take classes And only one single student from our dance school turned up, despite my repeatedly telling them all about the workshops in classes and giving all our students flyers - most of them have never been to a workshop before, and it seems to be impossible to get across to them how valuable taking workshops can be.

So, I guess my question is, is anyone else, especially in the UK, finding it really hard to get people to book workshops at the moment? Is it down to the recession, or am I doing something terribly wrong? How do you encourage your improver/intermediate students to attend workshops when they've never been to one before? How do you persuade people to come to workshops rather than just turning up to perform in the show?

I don't know if this is comforting or not but no you are not the only one. This is happening throughout the UK and is in fact one of the many reasons I am retiring from dancing.
I am sorry your hard work isn't paying off with more support it must be very discouraging for you.
I travel and teach at festivals nationwide and attendance is falling everywhere.

It's not you, it's the same everywhere. Last year I hosted workshops which sold out in a fortnight, this year business was slower.

I have to add that when Candi did a workshop for me two months ago people were very quick to book

My theory is that people are being very careful about what they spend their dance money on. I know people will come into this thread and denigrate students who only want to perform rather than learn but I don't think that's an accurate picture. I see students happy enough to go to events that they've been to before and know will give them good value for money, but reluctant to take a chance on something new. When the economy picks up hopefully they will start to feel they can spend money on themselves again.

Not that it's any consolation - but just want to repeat what Emma & Candi have said: it's everywhere.

Added to that - I've always found it's incredibly difficult to get students to go to things whether haflas or workshops...even if it's under their very nose! Sometimes nothing short of kidnapping will get them to go the stuff you think they'll benefit from (NB: I am *not* advocating kidnapping as a strategy to fill workshops!)

My experience is that it's not just workshops either - regular classes are becoming harder and harder to maintain...

The economy certainly has its role to play.

Another factor could be timing. For example, several of my students are college students. They often say no to performance opportunities in the late spring because they need to focus their energy on studying for exams, finishing papers, etc. And if they don't have time to carve out an hour or two to do a performance at a diversity festival, they certainly won't have time for a full-day marathon workshop event. But they might attend a workshop if it is held at a better time of year.

Fear of overcommitment can be a factor. If someone is already taking a couple of hours of time on weekends to do troupe rehearsals and performances, she might not have any time/energy left to attend workshops.

Family time comes into play. A student may be able to persuade her husband to watch the kinds so she can escape for a 1-hour class in the evening, but they may try to plan activities for the whole family on weekends.

Originally Posted by Emma

My theory is that people are being very careful about what they spend their dance money on. I know people will come into this thread and denigrate students who only want to perform rather than learn but I don't think that's an accurate picture. I see students happy enough to go to events that they've been to before and know will give them good value for money, but reluctant to take a chance on something new. When the economy picks up hopefully they will start to feel they can spend money on themselves again.

Absolutely, in fact I think folk are being very careful about whatever they spend money on, especially if it is leisure related. There is also a bit of a doom and gloom feeling in the UK at the moment I believe, some of which is justified and some isn't, but I keep hearing of individuals who are losing their jobs or in great danger of this and I can't blame them for hoarding their pennies.

Haflas are much cheaper to attend than workshops, of course, and this may explain why the attendance at these is better. The economy is dire at the moment and this is going to affect a smaller niche market like belly dancing. Time to batten down the hatches and wait for the storm to blow over maybe? Or perhaps we should be even more proactive in promoting ourselves? Haven't quite made up my mind yet .....

Originally Posted by Roshanna

most of them have never been to a workshop before, and it seems to be impossible to get across to them how valuable taking workshops can be.

This may be an important point. Students (especially hobbyists) sometimes have the misconception that workshops are only for advanced students who are planning to go pro, that the content will be too challenging or not relevant, etc., and they stay away out of fear that workshops are simply not for them, when in reality, these events are often attended by students of all levels and interests. Perhaps it would help to present the workshop as an honor they're ready to receive (i.e., you're proud of them and sure it will help them be even better)? If you can get a student or two to go to one event, you can start building some peer incentive to go to future ones--the trick is getting a few to take the plunge.

I love a good workshop. But like everyone else, and as Shira said, I'm watching my dance dollars and time commitments. It doesn't really matter if Miss Super-Duper Belly Dance Star is coming to town to teach a workshop - I'm sure it will be a great one! But my considerations in deciding to come include:

1) Can I afford the time and money?
2) Is she teaching something that interests me?
3) If she is, is she likely to teach me something new or be able to really help me with an on-going problem(s) I might have in the subject?
4) Is the subject relevant to what I'm working on right now?

As a for instance: Super dancer is teaching a 4 yard veil workshop. As everyone here knows, I *love* veil dancing with a passion! OK, so if the WS is scheduled for a time when I'm available to take it, and the price is reasonable, and I'm certainly interested in the subject matter.

But is she going to teach me something I don't already know? Veil dancing is one of my (few) strengths - but that doesn't mean I know everything. But if my troupe and I are working pell-mell on Gypsy Skirt dancing right now, I may be more inclined to take a skirt workshop instead. Or whatever.

I think it really boils down to #3 - how do I know Super Dancer is going to teach me something new? That's where good information, and the reputation of the teacher help me decide...

OTOH, if its a subject that I don't know much about - or am not particularly good at (PLENTY of that!! ), I'll be far more inclined to come. There's also a few teachers of whom I respect so much that I'll sign up for their workshop regardless and then "Oh, by the way, what's she teaching?". Alexandra King, Cory Zamora are two of them. Tarik Sultan is another, as is Fahtiem.

Nuts, I myself teach what I consider is a fairly unique veil workshop - "graduates" of same tell me that it has really helped them, blah, blah, blah. It still isn't easy getting students!

Speaking as a UK student, I would say there are a couple of things that put me off attending workshops. The first is money - workshops are often 30 - 40 quid, plus travel, etc etc, money I just don't have. The travelling also plays a role - I don't drive and workshops are usually held in a studio or sports centre somewhere way out of the way. For example, to get to an Aziza workshop this year I had to take 3 separate trains then walk for 35 minutes. It takes a lot of planning, and was very expensive. I'm willing to do it if its someone I love, but because of the price workshops are really something I can only afford 2 or 3 times a year.

Third thing - workshops are too hard for me. I've been dancing for about 2 years now, but I still always feel like I'm lagging behind in workshops. They are usually choreo based, no time to break anything down, terminology different from what I'm used to, can't see the teacher clearly...I feel a bit silly saying all this, but I can't be the only one who feels like this?

Originally Posted by Starmouth

Speaking as a UK student, I would say there are a couple of things that put me off attending workshops. The first is money - workshops are often 30 - 40 quid, plus travel, etc etc, money I just don't have. The travelling also plays a role - I don't drive and workshops are usually held in a studio or sports centre somewhere way out of the way. For example, to get to an Aziza workshop this year I had to take 3 separate trains then walk for 35 minutes. It takes a lot of planning, and was very expensive. I'm willing to do it if its someone I love, but because of the price workshops are really something I can only afford 2 or 3 times a year.

Third thing - workshops are too hard for me. I've been dancing for about 2 years now, but I still always feel like I'm lagging behind in workshops. They are usually choreo based, no time to break anything down, terminology different from what I'm used to, can't see the teacher clearly...I feel a bit silly saying all this, but I can't be the only one who feels like this?

I've been dancing for a very long time and I have a love/hate relationship with workshops sometimes, too. I dislike choreography-based workshops, I much prefer combinations. But I've concluded over the years that if you can get one or two really good nuggets out of a workshop, that's a success. There is just too much information being presented to absorb all of it, unless you could videotape the workshop and study it at your leisure, which is usually not the case. Still, I try to go to workshops as often as I possibly can, especially if they are local. It's all grist for the mill and nowadays I also learn from people's teaching methods to improve my teaching skills.

Originally Posted by Starmouth

Speaking as a UK student, I would say there are a couple of things that put me off attending workshops. The first is money - workshops are often 30 - 40 quid, plus travel, etc etc, money I just don't have. The travelling also plays a role - I don't drive and workshops are usually held in a studio or sports centre somewhere way out of the way. For example, to get to an Aziza workshop this year I had to take 3 separate trains then walk for 35 minutes.

Yea, I'd probably be willing to walk to an Aziza workshop too!

Third thing - workshops are too hard for me. I've been dancing for about 2 years now, but I still always feel like I'm lagging behind in workshops. They are usually choreo based, no time to break anything down, terminology different from what I'm used to, can't see the teacher clearly...I feel a bit silly saying all this, but I can't be the only one who feels like this?

This raises some good points.

I sometimes will skip a workshop that is choreo based as I'm NOT going to remember the choreo in the short time allotted anyway. I'd rather learn technique and combos - and then drill the 'ell out of them. Oftentimes the choreo *can* serve as the drill - and sometimes not. I don't want to be trying to remember a new choreo instead of concentrating on the technique. Its a fine and hard line to balance, and not all instructors can do it.

As you grow in the dance, unfamiliar terminology won't throw you as much - "Oh, that's what we call a ______.". Most workshop instructors regularly rotate the class so everyone has a chance to be up front - although I almost always just stay in back because I'm tall enough to see anyway, and don't want to block anyone else's view because I'm pretty big! There's usually more room in the back, I can shift from side to side as needed to keep the instructor in view. Obviously, this won't work for everyone!

The other trick if you're having problems with the instructor, find someone (or someones, it often changes during the course of the class) who seems to be "getting it" and follow her - keeping a mental "baseline truth" when you *can* see the instructor.

I think I feel similarly Zorba - at least at this stage I would prefer to attend combination based workshops. When I attend a workshop with a big star like Aziza or Jillina, what I really want is to absorb some of the essence of what makes their dancing unique - some of their spirit! In choreo workshops I spend too much time trying to remember combinations with lots of complicated ballet terms and spins and not enough time absorbing essence de Aziza!

As a dancer who travels the world, let me tell you it is the same EVERYWHERE! From Honolulu to Zurich, no matter if a teacher is (really very much) famous or if it's a rather unknown dancer...

And then now and again there's a workshop that completely sells out - and you can't really explain why because the same teacher might only have a half full room the next time she/he comes.

We have so many bellydance students and pro dancers here you would think that workshops at any level should find enough people who are willing to take them but I really get the feeling that students are not as eager anymore as they used to be...

MEISSOUN

Well, it's depressing but also sort of reassuring that this isn't only affecting us here. I suppose I sometimes forget that not everyone is as rabidly obsessed with the dance as me, or that to a lot of students this is just a hobby which can't always take priority.

I'm don't want to give up on workshop hosting altogether, but I guess we'll need to cut back on the number, and choose topics that our shy improver students will be familiar enough with to not be put off, but with some kind of clear selling point that they won't get in their regular classes that we can push to them... It's a hard choice, because I'd personally rather focus on things like regional dance styles that no local teachers specialise in, unusual technique/props, or classes at a higher level than are regularly available locally - but these are all things that only seem to appeal to a tiny keen minority, and scare a lot of the others off through unfamiliarity

I can identify with a lot of things that others are complaining about with workshops - I'm often put off of attending workshops that sound cool because the venues aren't accessible by public transport, and I too had a fairly epic journey when Aziza was last in the UK - I think it was 3 trains then a bus into the depths of Croydon. It was worth it though!

I can only agree that I have heard this same thing said from a lot of different teachers. I think everyone is cutting back and maybe workshops are a luxury that people are a bit reluctant to spend on a the moment. I hope it will improve soon because I think its so valuable to take workshops with master teachers. They can be so inspiring and leave you with the most amazing memories.

I remember a particular Yasmina workshop in the UK, I cant remember a thing she taught that day but I did buy a beautiful turquoise and silver saidi dress from her .... that dress inspired me more than anything had in a long time and still hangs (much loved) in my wardrobe.

I agree with what others have said regarding choreography workshops, I cannot remember a single instance where I have gone away after learning a choreography and performed it again. I much prefer combo workshops or signature moves workshops, at least then I usually take one new move away with me which makes it worthwhile.

Originally Posted by Starmouth

Speaking as a UK student, I would say there are a couple of things that put me off attending workshops. The first is money - workshops are often 30 - 40 quid, plus travel, etc etc, money I just don't have. The travelling also plays a role - I don't drive and workshops are usually held in a studio or sports centre somewhere way out of the way. For example, to get to an Aziza workshop this year I had to take 3 separate trains then walk for 35 minutes. It takes a lot of planning, and was very expensive. I'm willing to do it if its someone I love, but because of the price workshops are really something I can only afford 2 or 3 times a year.

I can completely relate to this, particularly because I also have very little money to spend on anything apart from food and bills! I generally cannot afford to travel anywhere to take workshops even if I really want to.

However, the workshops Roshanna organized for the Oxford Middle Eastern Dance Society were reasonably priced (early bird price was £40 for two workshops or £22 for one workshop) and the venue was relatively central (5 minute walk from the Oxford train station). Most of our OMEDS students are Oxford-based, i.e. the venue would be accessible on foot, bike and/or bus. I think the problem was that students don't really know what workshops are good for or what they can expect from one. They also won't necessarily have heard of the instructors.

Originally Posted by Starmouth

Third thing - workshops are too hard for me. I've been dancing for about 2 years now, but I still always feel like I'm lagging behind in workshops. They are usually choreo based, no time to break anything down, terminology different from what I'm used to, can't see the teacher clearly...I feel a bit silly saying all this, but I can't be the only one who feels like this?

No, you're not! I honestly think workshops get easier the more you go to them, though. With the Ozgen workshops I found that I was learning technique through choreography because of the way he would break things down -- I swear he tricked me into doing lovely barrel turns

I also do not like choreography based workshops. I don't remember the choreography and most of the time the choreography is something I could have put together myself if I spent enough time playing around with the moves... I tend to go to workshops that have a full discretion of the subject matter and say specifically that it is a technique workshop.

I understand that learning new choreography can be very helpful because you can always discover new combination's and new ways of layering. However, I am holding on to my $50.00 for a workshop that will really help me learn something new or look at a style in a new way. If there is a workshop that I feel I will really learn something from, I will do what ever I need to in order to save up my money to attend.

It would be interesting to do a split test on advertising with information that has more detail and a more general flier...

I held two workshops with Candi locally and both were full. The price was reasonable.
NADA AGM's were not very well supported ,despite being very reasonable in price by, dancers in th immediate vicinity but were backed by those who had to travel.
Yes, money is short but dancers will find it if the workshop grabs their interest.
They have to know the teacher by reputation.
They have to see how they will put what they learn to use.
They don't want to be "scared" by the idea of the workshop: it's not for me, woah,I can't do that,

Yes there is an element of "Why do I need workshops when all I do is pop along to local haflas and dance with my mates,having fun". "Workshops are for advanced students" etc etc

In any one class, we only have one or two truly dedicated students willing to invest in FE,I find.
The rest (who we can't do without to keep classes viable) are having fun, a break-from -the-workaday.
You can take a horse to water etc etc.

In any one class you will have a mix of age,shape,attitude blah blah...Organise a workshop that is high energy ,
uber-dynamic and you lose my age-group who let's face it make up a goodly percentage of interest in ths country.
So a workshop has to have a wide appeal.

I have to say that Ozgen and Khaled are two of the finest teachers I have ever had but there is still a minority of women who do not want to have a male teacher. Strange but true.
There is no one answer to the dilemma of hosting an attractive workshop. And people have other things going on in their lives:
work,study,family demands,illness,transport problem,job loss
I have had a lovely beginner class at college but some students ,despite paying for their course, travel problems,one lady wth a broken arm,students under pressure, meant they missed classes.Life happens! Jumps up an b**gers up
the best intentions.

This thread made me think. I haven't been to many workshops this year myself. Not that I haven't earned a ton from the many I've attended. Or that I am not eager to learn. And it's not about the money, either. It's the time invested and the uncertainty of what I'm getting.

I'm just tired of going to workshops that aren't what I expected, or what I wanted. Descriptions are often so vague, I don't know what the workshop will -really- be like. I dislike workshops that teach choreography. I like tons of technique and possibly a few combos. I don't know if a teacher is going to be push, push, push the whole time, or if there will be downtime here and there for lecture/discussion. I find 3 and 4-hour workshops exhausting. I can't focus that intensely for that long without feeling very frazzled by the end, when it's all go go go, push, push. Very few workshops have time built in for discussion and explanation, and I don't like dancing for 4 hours straight.

So I've shied away from workshops even though I crave them. I'd like 2-hour workshops much better. Of course that isn't practical when it's someone traveling in for the workshop. But if there were a local workshop series..... Say a series of 3 workshops, 2 hours each, with a week or two in between. Wow, what I could learn from that without being burned out on it! I'd sign up for that in a second.

Originally Posted by SpicyThai

. I find 3 and 4-hour workshops exhausting. I can't focus that intensely for that long without feeling very frazzled by the end, when it's all go go go, push, push. Very few workshops have time built in for discussion and explanation, and I don't like dancing for 4 hours straight.

I think this is important too. It seems to that if you leave a workshop unable to walk for shaking from exhaustion then it must have been a good workshop ? I think this is off-putting for students because they (we) feel that it must be for danceaholics who want to dance till they drop. Those sorts of workshops should be advertised as dance till you drop workshops I think a good two hour workshop with lots of technique and time for water breaks and to make notes is ideal.

I don't deny that organizers ought to do a better job of knowing and promoting what's going to be taught at workshops. Handwaving is not a business model. Didn't these details get nailed down when the contract was signed? I understand that the teacher may not always be able to gauge how fast the material can be covered, and consequently, how much she'll be able to teach. A high-ability/-experience group of students may pick things up quickly, where a lesser group might take much longer. What looks like intermediate material in San Francisco may be advanced level in Peoria. Still...

There is a segment of the workshop market that equates "quality" with "aching muscles tomorrow." If you're doing movements you've never done before, it's reasonable to be sore the next day. If the teacher is just drilling the daylights out of you to prove how hardcore she is and how she's giving you real value for your money, that's not always such a good thing. Unless you're advertising your class as a marathon workout, what is the point of giving a workshop that would leave the Cirque du Soleil acrobats wiped out? (I'm looking at you, teachers who do aggressive drilling in the last hour and strenuous yoga cooldowns!) Is it to prove how much more highly trained you are than we are? We already knew that. That's why we paid you to be the teacher.

On the other hand, if you're below the threshold of proper conditioning for your level, that's probably your own fault. If you sign up for an advanced workshop and you can't dance more than a half hour without collapsing, it might be time to reevaluate whether you're practicing the way you should and if you really deserve to consider yourself "advanced." Most teachers are very compassionate about letting students stop participating if they feel too fatigued or are otherwise unable to continue dancing, but something probably isn't right if a student habitually has to bail out after the midway break. A four-hour workshop is not supposed to be two hours of class, followed by two hours of kibitzing with friends and browsing the vendor tables while the teacher continues to teach half of the number of students she started with. If you can't complete the class, at least be respectful of the others still working, and if you can't do that, stay home.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

On the other hand, if you're below the threshold of proper conditioning for your level, that's probably your own fault. If you sign up for an advanced workshop and you can't dance more than a half hour without collapsing, it might be time to reevaluate whether you're practicing the way you should and if you really deserve to consider yourself "advanced." Most teachers are very compassionate about letting students stop participating if they feel too fatigued or are otherwise unable to continue dancing, but something probably isn't right if a student habitually has to bail out after the midway break. A four-hour workshop is not supposed to be two hours of class, followed by two hours of kibitzing with friends and browsing the vendor tables while the teacher continues to teach half of the number of students she started with. If you can't complete the class, at least be respectful of the others still working, and if you can't do that, stay home.

I agree that a person should try to make sure they are physically able to handle the workshop.

For me, the physicality is fine. I can do a competitive 5K in the morning and still feel like hitting my home gym for weight training in the afternoon.

It's the physical focus that is the issue for me. It's one thing to do a 5K--I'm conditioned for it, it's no thing. But focusing hard on unfamiliar things takes not only the physical but also the mental. I get to a point there I just can't process -more-. Flying from this to that to another thing for 4 hours fills up my RAM. I have to have time to move it to the hard drive.

I don't mind a 4 hour workshop that puts a bit into my RAM, then focuses on it until it's on the hard drive. But I've only been to two workshops that ever focused that cleanly on specific things. Rather, it's, "Here's THIS, and then THIS, and THAT, and don't forget THIS THING. Now, combine them into That-This-Thing, and oh, how about Something Else on the end with rainbow arms! So now let's move on to....." Mentally exhausting.

Originally Posted by SpicyThai

I don't know if a teacher is going to be push, push, push the whole time, or if there will be downtime here and there for lecture/discussion. Very few workshops have time built in for discussion and explanation, and I don't like dancing for 4 hours straight.

So I've shied away from workshops even though I crave them. I'd like 2-hour workshops much better.

A lot of the belly dance festival events, such as Saqra's Showcase and Las Vegas Bellydance Intensive, offer 1.5- or 2-hour workshops. So an attendee at such an event could pick and choose a schedule of workshops that suits their personal preferences. Of course, in such a short workshop there's a limit to how much depth the instructor can offer on the topic.

Interesting that you're saying you'd like lecture/discussion/explanation. In my experience, those types of presentations at the big festivals often draw very small attendance. Of course, one issue is that often these are scheduled at the same time as a really popular workshop - at the IBCC a couple of years ago, I had really small attendance for my lecture about dancers in Egyptian society because I was scheduled opposite the popular Egyptian instructor Aida Nour. A lot of people told me they'd really wanted to hear my lecture, but since it came down to a choice between Aida Nour and me, well....

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I don't deny that organizers ought to do a better job of knowing and promoting what's going to be taught at workshops. Handwaving is not a business model. Didn't these details get nailed down when the contract was signed?

Just adding my 2cents as a promoter. I think people would be surprised at how difficult it is to get the artist to give them the appropriate information to promote their classes. I swear...one of these days I'm writing an entire article about this.

At my event, I have 40+ teachers to deal with. This means 40+ contracts, bios, photos, performance intros, and class descriptions that I have to gather. You'd be blown away at how many times I get incomplete information. I often have to resort to attempting to write the class description myself or scouring the internet for photos & bios...which is absurd.

And even when I get class information, I always (and I do mean ALWAYS) get complaints that some teacher didn't live up to the description.

Also, I don't always have all the details nailed down at the time of the contract signing. Sometimes I'm signing people 18 months in advance with a TBA for topics. It's just not feasible or necessary at that point in time to make those decisions. We agree on structure, not details.

Anyway, I'm not really arguing. I do agree that many organizers out there need to do a better job. All too often, people jump into the organizing arena thinking they don't care about a profit and they're excited about a free workshop. These folks are the worst because they are doing it more for themselves than for the experience of the class as a whole.

The best organizers out there care about all the little details that will create the best experience possible for their guests.

Originally Posted by SpicyThai

I don't mind a 4 hour workshop that puts a bit into my RAM, then focuses on it until it's on the hard drive. But I've only been to two workshops that ever focused that cleanly on specific things. Rather, it's, "Here's THIS, and then THIS, and THAT, and don't forget THIS THING. Now, combine them into That-This-Thing, and oh, how about Something Else on the end with rainbow arms! So now let's move on to....." Mentally exhausting.

Different people learn material at different rates, no denying. However, I think some of the problem with mental exhaustion in workshops is the teacher's failure to pace the class properly. I've been in classes where it felt like you spent three hours on the first minute of a choreography and an hour on the last three minutes. Assuming the later material is different and challenging, you're pushing a lot at students when they're getting tired and unreceptive to absorbing it, and that's just bad methodology. Of course, as I said in the other post, a teacher doesn't always know what kind of class she's going to get, and you can't always plan in advance, so in some ways, combination workshops are better suited to navigating this sort of problem than choreography ones. If you're conscientious and you adjust your pacing to the group you've got, maybe that means you'll only get through eight of the twelve combinations you were planning to cover. That makes more sense than teaching two-thirds of a choreography.

Then again, when do students get the chance to practice learning choreography quickly outside of workshops? Maybe routines get dumped on them at the last minute when troupes are scrambling to get ready for shows, but that's bad planning, too. How many teachers systematically speed up the rate they teach choreos, so that students get used to learning more quickly as they become more advanced? Being able to learn a routine in a short amount of time is a skill in itself (true, one that not everyone will be equally good at), but when you look around the workshop in that last hour, there's a very good chance that the students who are still going strong came in with experience from somewhere else. Either they're thriving because they've studied a lot from this teacher already (this phenomenon seems to be particularly common with choreographers like Mahmoud Reda and Yousry Sharif--once you get the hang of their basic moves and transitions, it's easier to keep up), or they've taken a lot of some other dance elsewhere, usually ballet.

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

Just adding my 2cents as a promoter. I think people would be surprised at how difficult it is to get the artist to give them the appropriate information to promote their classes.

But doesn't some of this get back to the lackadaisical way that some dancers to approach business? I can understand deciding on a teacher in advance and then sorting out what she'll teach a little later, but if you're doing a one-teacher event, and you've been planning this for six months to a year, how is that not enough time to nail down what's going to be taught with enough lead to publicize it? The teacher isn't figuring out the choreography she's going to teach on the plane, is she? Are organizers really saying that the pig-in-a-poke strategy is preferable to advertising the details? Or are we saying that the only thing students actually care about is the instructor's brand, not the subject matter?

LOL, although props to you Samira! Pulling that many teachers together for the Intensive must be like trying to dress a herd of cats in footie pajamas!

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

But doesn't some of this get back to the lackadaisical way that some dancers to approach business? I can understand deciding on a teacher in advance and then sorting out what she'll teach a little later, but if you're doing a one-teacher event, and you've been planning this for six months to a year, how is that not enough time to nail down what's going to be taught with enough lead to publicize it? The teacher isn't figuring out the choreography she's going to teach on the plane, is she? Are organizers really saying that the pig-in-a-poke strategy is preferable to advertising the details? Or are we saying that the only thing students actually care about is the instructor's brand, not the subject matter?

LOL, although props to you Samira! Pulling that many teachers together for the Intensive must be like trying to dress a herd of cats in footie pajamas!

As a fairly inexperienced promoter, I have been really surprised by how hard it is to get a good class description out of teachers (I have the same problem getting bios out of our regular class teachers to go on our website ). I don't think I've ever been sent one that didn't need at least some rewriting on my part, and it can also be hard to extract photos and bios from some. I have generally ended up rewriting the description to get into decent English with coherent sentences and stuff, then running it by the teacher to check it's still accurate... At the moment, as a fairly 'junior' dancer, I find it quite hard to harass teachers who I respect to the level that sometimes seems necessary. Hopefully as I get more experienced, bossing them around will become easier!

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

LOL, although props to you Samira! Pulling that many teachers together for the Intensive must be like trying to dress a herd of cats in footie pajamas!

I nearly wrote "hearding cats" in my post, but I didn't think it would come across well. hahahahaha.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

But doesn't some of this get back to the lackadaisical way that some dancers to approach business? I can understand deciding on a teacher in advance and then sorting out what she'll teach a little later, but if you're doing a one-teacher event, and you've been planning this for six months to a year, how is that not enough time to nail down what's going to be taught with enough lead to publicize it? The teacher isn't figuring out the choreography she's going to teach on the plane, is she? Are organizers really saying that the pig-in-a-poke strategy is preferable to advertising the details? Or are we saying that the only thing students actually care about is the instructor's brand, not the subject matter?

I think the problem is twofold. Lacksidasical dancers AND lacksidasical promoters. I've seen both sides of the coin. There are plenty of bad promoters out there. Like I have said so many times before...we have an onslaught of people who don't really care about putting on a quality event because their only motivation for doing a workshop is to get "free" time with some instructor. That's a lousy reason to host an event because the needs of the sponsor is coming before the needs of the attendees.

That said, there is a plethora of workshop instructors (and I'm talking world-class well-known professionals) that are difficult to reach because they are traveling so much. So getting the needed information from them is like pulling teeth. And the quality of what they produce in terms of basic business materials are lousy. They may be great teachers and dancers, but they don't have a clue on what it takes to "sell" them.

You'd think that 6 months would be enough time, but I had a headliner once that I had an agreement with for over 18 months before I got the signed contract. And that was a few weeks before the event. Yes, some of that is "my bad" because I am not a huge stickler for the details. I typically will go ahead and announce someone and promote them once I have the stuff worked out in a long email exchange. I knew this person was trustworthy, so i wasn't worried. However, when you have to constantly nag someone for 18 months to get a signed contract, it says something about their business prowess.

Seriously, some of these people NEED to hire a personal assistant.

Originally Posted by Roshanna

At the moment, as a fairly 'junior' dancer, I find it quite hard to harass teachers who I respect to the level that sometimes seems necessary. Hopefully as I get more experienced, bossing them around will become easier!

Yup, it gets easier. And you'll become proficient at doing it firmly and with tact.

As an humble very beginner person, i'll slide my two cents in and say that I initially thought workshops were for established/intermediate/advanced dancers only.

There were two notable dancers in our area recently and i knew about the workshops but didn't go because i didn't want to be out of place as the beginner... like a child at the adult table.

I mentioned one to my teacher too late and she told me that it was okay if i had gone. If i hadn't asked, i never would have known.