Thread: undercutting

We all know that undercutting can hurt other dancers, but I thought this was a good example of how undercutting can actually hurt you:
The other day I watched some reality TV show where hairstylists were competing for some prize (I forget what). In one of the challenges, they set up shop in the middle of a mall, market themselves to the people in the mall, charge whatever they wanted, and whoever made the most $ won. One team charged their normal rate (I think it was $50 or $60) and two teams charged much less- $30 and $10- thinking that they would get more customers. Guess who won? The team who charged the most had slightly fewer customers but made waayy more than the other two teams put together.
Charging less may mean more gigs, but it can also mean a lot less money!

Exactly....I have lost a lot of jobs because I 've refused to bring my price down to what a client wants, but I've founds that lately those clients who don't even question my fee's are the most respectful, at times even tipping me.

I've recently been asked to not just lower my fee, but to get paid based on the turn out of the lounge.
So if one table shows up, I get what? 1$?
I refused of course. But from what I understand there are dancers who took this offer. It angered me quite a bit, but what can you do in this situation?
,m::

no way!! based on how many folks show up? That's RETARDED!!! Ok, only one person shows! So you get nothing? That sounds dumb. I'd ask them if they asked to pay their vendors the same way.

well, they asked me to help them promote (I put it on my myspace page, the end).

So I guess that was a motivation for me promoting for them. The more I promote, the more people come, the more money I get? Except they forgot one thing, I'm a belly dancer, not a promoter. Those are two different professions. Sorry, just venting.

that sux, a gig like that is not worth it, I had a client expect me to sell tickets to their party, and I was like "that is not part of my job discription"lol.

We will always be judged by others by how we present yourself. If every time our boss asks us to lower our fee due to lack of customers, or asks us to stand outside in our costume and dance around to get peoples attention to attract more costumers and we do it...they are going to look at us like we are willing to do anything for a buck...and that is how much money they are going to think we are worth. Every time I have been asked to do anything of the sort...I say no, hell no! I am not a human advertising sign, I am not a promoter, and I am not providing my services for free just because those cheap bastards don't want to fork out the necessary dough in order to pay for advertising.
What's that saying "You get what you pay for"....If business owners want to go on the cheap and pay their dancers crap...they are going to end up with crappy dancers.
And as far as those dancers that continue to undercut...they only do it because they know they aren't worth anymore then what they make...if that. Not to mention that anyone found to be undercutting gets a reputation for it and that kind of info gets around really quick.

Originally Posted by Susanna

I've recently been asked to not just lower my fee, but to get paid based on the turn out of the lounge.

thats cheap and dumb!..c::

Yes I'm afraid we'll always have to deal with this.

Yesterday I was called to perform on an Iranian engagement party. When I told him that would be €150 excl. travel expanses he replied 'I just talked to a dancer who's willing to dance for €85 incl. travel expanses'. Lucky thing is he immediately said himself he wanted quality and guessed she wouldn't provide that much.. On the other hand he wanted to call yet another dancer and consult with his fiancee and I didn't hear back from him yet..

B

How's that saying again? If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys?

I've lost a lot of gigs this way as well, but I do know that the people who are willing to pay a correct price, do appreciate it and - indeed - at times tip a lot as well! I'd rather work for those people than do heaps of gigs with just a so-so appreciation.

Some fellow dance friends are convinced that $25 for a 20 minute performance is an awesome pay rate - hey, that's $125/hr right?? but I can't somehow convey the fact that it takes months of preparation, $$$ on costumes, makeup and classes, at least an hour to get ready the night of, gas costs, transportation time and you rarely just run in and do 20 minutes and leave. Usually you spend at least an hour at the place waiting to go on or waiting to get paid. It's infuriating to me. All they seem to notice is the 20 minutes that you're actually on stage - and these are dancers, they should know better!

I just watched some wedding show where a guy who juggles w/fire quoted $400 for, I think it was a 20 or 30 minute set. No one blinked an eye. Best to align w/other entertainers than other dancers, I guess.

It's just really sad because the majority of dancers don't do it maliciously. You can blame ignorance, but most of the time, that can be fixed in two seconds. In my experience, 99% of people who charge too little have a very low sense of self-worth.

Some of them also have very little business savvy, which makes for a lethal combination. It gets a dancer into a vicious cycle of having to take anything that comes his/her way just to keep afloat, just as illustrated in the salon example.

We have alot of people who claim to be "within" pay standards. Within means about $15 or more a show less than what everyoen else is asking for. So they have the vast majority of the shows in town while some of us are just getting a gig or two a month, they have a gig or two a night. Every night of every weekend.

I'd rather have that once a month gig than lower my standards for weekly gigs. I say let them have it and hopefully they will realize in the end that it wasn't worth it, if not I hope someone can convince them of it. My guess is if the quality of a venue is poor enough that they can only afford low quality dancers then the venue's cliental probably lacks high quality taste anyhow. The best we can do is talk to one another and I don't mean behind another dancer's back.

"You get what you pay for" is the motto to follow.

In the hairstyling scenario, I would never go to a $10 stylist. I would be worried that they'd give me a lady mullet.

Originally Posted by Safiyah

Some fellow dance friends are convinced that $25 for a 20 minute performance is an awesome pay rate - hey, that's $125/hr right?? but I can't somehow convey the fact that it takes months of preparation, $$$ on costumes, makeup and classes, at least an hour to get ready the night of, gas costs, transportation time and you rarely just run in and do 20 minutes and leave. Usually you spend at least an hour at the place waiting to go on or waiting to get paid. It's infuriating to me. All they seem to notice is the 20 minutes that you're actually on stage - and these are dancers, they should know better!

Most dancers don't think of the entire "business" part of it and don't add up all the expenses.
Here in the DC/Baltimore area the rate for new restaurant gigs is $100 per show or more. We're still working on some of the already established places. They're gradually losing dancers to new gigs that are paying much better.
The private party rate is $200 per show or more. Collectively we've worked really hard over the last few years to get them up- and are still of course coming across undercutters. I think they will always exist.
When someone tries to bargain me down, my current "go to" response is "I'm sorry I just can't work at a loss". Most people (especially if they're business owners themselves) totally respect that and usually then meet my price. If not- hey, I'm still available for something that pays standard or more. ..g.:

I find the trouble is that for most people dancing is not their main job or even their part time job.Its not what they do to be able to eat and pay the bills so what they get paid doesn't matter so much.Unfortunately for those of us who dance as our main job-it does matter.No work-no money.But we are all in the same market place looking for work.I have to charge a sensible amount because its my job-they don't.

Originally Posted by dancingstar

"You get what you pay for" is the motto to follow.

In the hairstyling scenario, I would never go to a $10 stylist. I would be worried that they'd give me a lady mullet.

This is completely anecdotal, but I recently got a massage at one of the most expensive spas in my city (I got a gift card). I've had several massages over the years, but the Massage Therapist I got gave me - bar none - the best deep tissue massage I've ever had. I usually come home from a massage feeling like I've been run over by a truck, but I experienced very little discomfort or soreness afterwards. The MT not only used massage, but some PT type stretches with my illiacus and piriformus muscles that felt truly magnificent. Plus, he went over by nearly 20 minutes at no extra charge.

Sure, it was $30 more than any other massage I've ever had, but I'm hooked on this guy. I plan to go to him monthly now, even if I have to pick up a part-time job to afford it.

I learned very quickly that restaurant shows locally are not worth the time. I was hired at two local places (small and both very slow) and they paid me $40 and $50 per set. The amount of time it takes to practice, burn my CD's, get ready, and pay for gas are NOT worth dancing for that amount for two people in a yucky restaurant. Then, when it was slow, both places would send me home (after I showed up in full gear) when it was slow. That REALLY pissed me off and I told them forget it.

I just don't understand undercutting. Dancing is so much work that I am not willing to get paid so poorly. I learned the hard way.

Originally Posted by Candi

I find the trouble is that for most people dancing is not their main job or even their part time job.Its not what they do to be able to eat and pay the bills so what they get paid doesn't matter so much.

Working for crap pay is a disservice and a waste of time for any dancer, full-time or not. It's a disservice to her personally, and to the community as a whole.

I value my time, no matter what I'm doing. I think I deserve better compensation for having nice costumes, well-planned sets, and good audience interaction. $50 is just not worth it.

There's a dancer in my community who takes pride in the fact that she'll basically dance everywhere she's asked and for whatever money's being offered.
When we had coffee recently, she was griping about being overworked and burnt out...she couldn't afford to turn down work, couldn't afford new costumes and was failing to get students in her classes. She was shocked to hear that I was doing REALLY well and couldn't figure why when it was obvious that I was working less. Quality, I explained...over quantity. I've kept my prices fair, but on the high end and I offer the kind of quality show by a dancer who doesn't look like a dish rag.
My motto in 2007 was 'work smarter, not harder' and it paid off.
2008 is already building well as far as shows and classes.
(PS...the calls from clients who say 'I just talked to a dancer who said that she'd do the party for $100', I interrupt them and say 'PLEASE get off the phone and call that dancer back! You've found yourself a bargain basement deal and if price is more important to you than quality, you should absolutely book this student....yes...student.'
Gia

Originally Posted by mish_mish

I value my time, no matter what I'm doing. I think I deserve better compensation for having nice costumes, well-planned sets, and good audience interaction. $50 is just not worth it.

exactly, see my latest post in the "Zaghareet Article" thread and why I refused to dance last night.

Gia, you are lucky to be on the east coast, where there are lots more gig op's. Out here, there simply are not that many to go around, and people will search out the cheaper dancer.

We have cheap dancing down to a science here. Hubby and I went out a few nights ago to a local hookah restaurant/bar place. We walked in and the dancer was performing. I immediately recognized her and she's nice, but she's notorious for underselling herself. Her back was to the door when we came in but I immediately recognized her by the ratty costume she's been wearing for at least 4 years. Before we could be seated, I just turned and walked out. I couldn't face her. It just disappoints me to see her. She is a good dancer too, but she's a product of the belly dance biz in Sacramento. It is really sad. She cannot afford a better costume. Everything she has is worn out and falling apart. She's beautiful, but she just looks unpolished all the time.

I don't mean to say that everyone has to have new name brand costumes. But professionals do need enough to keep a rotation going. I feel like this costume is just like a uniform for her. THAT is her belly dance costume and she puts it on and dances, but there's no love or care put into it.

Originally Posted by mish_mish

We have cheap dancing down to a science here. Hubby and I went out a few nights ago to a local hookah restaurant/bar place. We walked in and the dancer was performing. I immediately recognized her and she's nice, but she's notorious for underselling herself. Her back was to the door when we came in but I immediately recognized her by the ratty costume she's been wearing for at least 4 years. Before we could be seated, I just turned and walked out. I couldn't face her. It just disappoints me to see her. She is a good dancer too, but she's a product of the belly dance biz in Sacramento. It is really sad. She cannot afford a better costume. Everything she has is worn out and falling apart. She's beautiful, but she just looks unpolished all the time.

I don't mean to say that everyone has to have new name brand costumes. But professionals do need enough to keep a rotation going. I feel like this costume is just like a uniform for her. THAT is her belly dance costume and she puts it on and dances, but there's no love or care put into it.

I know dancers like this, too. The problem is that they try to make their living through restaurant jobs and parties only. While you CAN eke out a living doing this in my area, you won't have any money left over for re-investing in your belly dance business. That's the main reason (besides having children to raise who didn't ask to survive on a starving artist's salary) that I got a day job. Now I don't feel like I have to take every gig that comes along no matter if it's convenient for me or I feel like doing it or not. I've also raised my prices because I don't worry about losing jobs, which means I don't dance as often (I used to dance four times a week or more, now it's down to one night a week most weeks), but I can afford to both eat and update myself, and on top of it all, I can spend more time at home with my family in the evenings.

It's sad, but really it's just very difficult in many places to make an actual living from dance without burning yourself out and/or living in abject poverty.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I know dancers like this, too. The problem is that they try to make their living through restaurant jobs and parties only. While you CAN eke out a living doing this in my area, you won't have any money left over for re-investing in your belly dance business. That's the main reason (besides having children to raise who didn't ask to survive on a starving artist's salary) that I got a day job. Now I don't feel like I have to take every gig that comes along no matter if it's convenient for me or I feel like doing it or not. I've also raised my prices because I don't worry about losing jobs, which means I don't dance as often (I used to dance four times a week or more, now it's down to one night a week most weeks), but I can afford to both eat and update myself, and on top of it all, I can spend more time at home with my family in the evenings.

It's sad, but really it's just very difficult in many places to make an actual living from dance without burning yourself out and/or living in abject poverty.

Yes. exactly. If I had to depend on my gigs, tips and teaching to make a "living" I'd be homeless.

This particular dancer is part of Jodette's legacy. She has a day job (a decent one, as far as I know), but because she was so used to working for nothing teaching and dancing for Jodette, she doesn't really know that getting $50 a set is bad. Having danced for Jodette's studio, she got so little that $50 sounds good to her. Jodette also has such horrific costumes for sale that what this dancer wears is MUCH nicer than what she could get through Jodette. It's all relative. It's kind of like being raised in another country--Jodette isolates her dancers so that they don't GET the larger dance world at all. This dancer has struck out on her own and I applaud her for that because she was probably one of the closest to Jodette for a long time and she finally got the courage to break out, but change takes time.

Originally Posted by mish_mish

This particular dancer is part of Jodette's legacy. She has a day job (a decent one, as far as I know), but because she was so used to working for nothing teaching and dancing for Jodette, she doesn't really know that getting $50 a set is bad. Having danced for Jodette's studio, she got so little that $50 sounds good to her. Jodette also has such horrific costumes for sale that what this dancer wears is MUCH nicer than what she could get through Jodette. It's all relative. It's kind of like being raised in another country--Jodette isolates her dancers so that they don't GET the larger dance world at all. This dancer has struck out on her own and I applaud her for that because she was probably one of the closest to Jodette for a long time and she finally got the courage to break out, but change takes time.

everytime I hear about Jodette and these stories of yours, I just want to vomit.

It's really pathetic. What do you do? How can you improve the situation there.

Answer: You CAN'T Because Restaurants Will 99% Of The Time Hire The Cheaper Dancer - and So Will The GP!

I'm really just getting tired of saying it, I'm becoming a broken record on the subject, so I think I'll just shut up.